# Sydney, Australia "Terror" Attack **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 15, 2014, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sydney-australia-terror-attack/707247 "2014-12-15T00:09:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sydney-australia-terror-attack/707247/81 "2014-12-16T18:55:46Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Hours after I tell Boffking to knock if off you both decide to continue with the threadshitting? That was not an open invitation to get in free shots because he was instructed to not continue. Anyone else who wishes to continue will be warned. Sorry, I didn’t see your previous warning. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sydney-australia-terror-attack/707247/82 "2014-12-16T19:03:06Z")
Not sure I agree 100% with the following quotes from Juan Cole, but he does offer an interesting counter-perspective [here](http://www.juancole.com/2014/12/banality-terrorism-hostage.html): > [@](#): > > In fact, Sydney had another hostage crisis, in 1984, in a bank. A formerly wealthy (secular) Turkish-Australian became unhinged at losing his fortune. Today’s incident is not more important than that one, which few now remember. Both of these hostage-takers were common criminals. Neither is a “terrorist.” Today’s Sydney hostage-taker is not representative of a new activity. He isn’t important, and ordering a black flag won’t make him so. The only one who can bestow recognition on this criminal is the mass media and the press. They shouldn’t do it. > > \<…snip…\> > > Nor are Australia’s Muslims responsible for this maniac. All white people aren’t responsible for motorcycle gangs or white supremacist groups. No one has ever asked a white person on television, ‘why don’t you condemn the Aryan Nation?'” > > \<…snip…\> > > Daesh is just a bunch of gangsters. They are smugglers and human traffickers and mass murderers. It is secondary that they deploy a language of political Islam. The Ku Klux Klan in the US thought of itself as Protestant White Knights. > > \<…snip…\> > > Nor is Daesh popular, nor does it find ideological acceptance. Almost nobody in the Middle East likes it, and the tiny percentages who do tell pollsters they approve may not even agree with many of its actions. > > \<…snip…\> > > It is really unfortunate that the magnificent city of Sydney had its peace disturbed by this maniac. But he isn’t important, least of all geopolitically, and shouldn’t be built up otherwise. (“Daesh” is an Arabic term for what much of the media in the west is calling ISIS) Interesting points, many of which I agree with. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sydney-australia-terror-attack/707247/83 "2014-12-16T19:19:21Z")
“Nor are Australia’s Muslims responsible for this maniac. All white people aren’t responsible for motorcycle gangs or white supremacist groups. No one has ever asked a white person on television, ‘why don’t you condemn the Aryan Nation?'” White supremacists support in the US population: fraction or a percent. Probably 1% or so in some European countries. Muslim extremists’ support (well, Al Queda support, pretty sure for local groups it would be a lot higher) in Muslim countries’ populations: [Median 13%, with Malaysia at 20%, Indonesia 23%, Egypt 20%](http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/09/10/muslim-publics-share-concerns-about-extremist-groups/) Higher support for Hamas and Hizbullah. A bit higher for Taliban than for Al Queda. Does that difference in support explain it for you? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sydney-australia-terror-attack/707247/84 "2014-12-16T20:07:37Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > Not sure I agree 100% with the following quotes from Juan Cole, but he does offer an interesting counter-perspective [here](http://www.juancole.com/2014/12/banality-terrorism-hostage.html): > > (“Daesh” is an Arabic term for what much of the media in the west is calling ISIS) > > Interesting points, many of which I agree with. To sum up, on the one hand, we don’t want the public to panic and start targeting innocent Muslims, and OTOH we need to acknowledge the “new face” of Islamic terrorism is the loner attacks by people with no official affiliation with terrorist groups. Sticky sitch. But, that’s the whole point of terrorism, isn’t it? Fuck with our heads. ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sydney-australia-terror-attack/707247/85 "2014-12-16T21:37:44Z")
We’ll, yeah - but I think the hashtag #IWillRideWithYou is an incredible demonstration by ordinary Aussies that _their_ heads have not successfully been fucked with. Yeah Aussies! Proud that my SO spent 10 remarkable years in your country. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sydney-australia-terror-attack/707247/86 "2014-12-16T22:17:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “Nor are Australia’s Muslims responsible for this maniac. All white people aren’t responsible for motorcycle gangs or white supremacist groups. No one has ever asked a white person on television, ‘why don’t you condemn the Aryan Nation?'” > > White supremacists support in the US population: fraction or a percent. Probably 1% or so in some European countries. > > Muslim extremists’ support (well, Al Queda support, pretty sure for local groups it would be a lot higher) in Muslim countries’ populations: [Median 13%, with Malaysia at 20%, Indonesia 23%, Egypt 20%](http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/09/10/muslim-publics-share-concerns-about-extremist-groups/) > > Higher support for Hamas and Hizbullah. A bit higher for Taliban than for Al Queda. > > Does that difference in support explain it for you? You seem to be confused - are you actually advocating racism against **Australian** Muslims because twenty percent of **Egyptian** Muslims have a favorable view of al-Qaeda? 😕 You do know that Australian Muslims and Egyptian Muslims are not the same people, right? And that surveys of popular opinion in Egypt are unlikely to be representative of popular opinion in Australia? And that it’s counter-productive to be racist against the 69% of Egyptian Muslims who have an unfavorable view of al Qaeda because of the 20% who have a favorable view? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sydney-australia-terror-attack/707247/87 "2014-12-16T22:28:00Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > You seem to be confused - are you actually advocating racism against **Australian** Muslims because twenty percent of **Egyptian** Muslims have a favorable view of al-Qaeda? 😕 You do know that Australian Muslims and Egyptian Muslims are not the same people, right? > > And that surveys of popular opinion in Egypt are unlikely to be representative of popular opinion in Australia? > > And that it’s counter-productive to be racist against the 69% of Egyptian Muslims who have an unfavorable view of al Qaeda because of the 20% who have a favorable view? The question was not about being “racist”. The question was about asking for condemnation. Asking for condemnation when support for the group, anywhere, is basically non-existent is silly. Asking for condemnation when support for the group is significant is not. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sydney-australia-terror-attack/707247/88 "2014-12-16T22:28:10Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > You seem to be confused - are you actually advocating racism against **Australian** Muslims because twenty percent of **Egyptian** Muslims have a favorable view of al-Qaeda? 😕 You do know that Australian Muslims and Egyptian Muslims are not the same people, right? > > And that surveys of popular opinion in Egypt are unlikely to be representative of popular opinion in Australia? > > And that it’s counter-productive to be racist against the 69% of Egyptian Muslims who have an unfavorable view of al Qaeda because of the 20% who have a favorable view? You seem to be confused. Do you know what racism means? Last I checked, Indonesians and Egyptians weren’t considered a race. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sydney-australia-terror-attack/707247/89 "2014-12-16T22:34:57Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > You seem to be confused. Do you know what racism means? Last I checked, Indonesians and Egyptians weren’t considered a race. Technically, “Jewish” isn’t a race either, but the Holocaust was still racist. > [@Terr](#): > > The question was not about being “racist”. The question was about asking for condemnation. Asking for condemnation when support for the group, anywhere, is basically non-existent is silly. Asking for condemnation when support for the group is significant is not. Asking for condemnation because of the racist assumption that all Muslims support violence is racist. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sydney-australia-terror-attack/707247/90 "2014-12-16T22:57:58Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > Asking for condemnation because of the racist assumption that all Muslims support violence is racist. A significant portion of Muslims support religious extremism and violence, yes. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sydney-australia-terror-attack/707247/91 "2014-12-16T23:07:49Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > Technically, “Jewish” isn’t a race either, but the Holocaust was still racist. “Jewish” as any Doper should know, is a race when it’s a race, and a wonderfully rich and diverse collection of all facets of humanity, as needed. > [@](#): > > Asking for condemnation because of the racist assumption that all Muslims support violence is racist. I don’t think anyone is calling for universal condemnation of Muslims. 1% of something usually isn’t a big deal. 13% of a religion comprising something like 1/3 of the earth is significant. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sydney-australia-terror-attack/707247/92 "2014-12-16T23:24:16Z")
Comparing Muslims living in what are is some cases third world conditions is wrong. If I as a white man was living in poor conditions I would probably support some kind of group promising restoration of my cultures former glory. #iwillridewithyou ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sydney-australia-terror-attack/707247/93 "2014-12-17T00:21:39Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I don’t think anyone is calling for universal condemnation of Muslims. The “condemnation” referenced upthread is condemnation _of_ extremists, _by_ members of the “community” they are perceived to be associated with. Which happens. American and Australian and British Muslims _do_ condemn acts of terrorism perpetrated by Muslims in their countries. With respect to Muslim institutions in Australia and the recent incident, as far as I can tell the condemnation was universal. By and large, Muslims living in democratic countries of the West appreciate an open and tolerant society, as much as most other of our citizens (some with personal experience of more repressive cultures, perhaps, even more so). For what it’s worth, though I have never really been held to collective responsibility for the violent and hateful actions of some other white Americans… I _do_ condemn them, too. I have opposed them in writing and in the street. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sydney-australia-terror-attack/707247/94 "2014-12-17T00:59:45Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Hours after I tell Boffking to knock if off you both decide to continue with the threadshitting? That was not an open invitation to get in free shots because he was instructed to not continue. Anyone else who wishes to continue will be warned. I really don’t think it’s threadshitting. The newsworthiness (or not) of this event is actually quite an interesting aspect of the event, and one well worth discussing. But I’m not going to discuss it because that would be threadshitting apparently. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sydney-australia-terror-attack/707247/95 "2014-12-17T05:57:39Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > The “condemnation” referenced upthread is condemnation _of_ extremists, _by_ members of the “community” they are perceived to be associated with. > > Which happens. American and Australian and British Muslims _do_ condemn acts of terrorism perpetrated by Muslims in their countries. With respect to Muslim institutions in Australia and the recent incident, as far as I can tell the condemnation was universal. > > By and large, Muslims living in democratic countries of the West appreciate an open and tolerant society, as much as most other of our citizens (some with personal experience of more repressive cultures, perhaps, even more so). > > For what it’s worth, though I have never really been held to collective responsibility for the violent and hateful actions of some other white Americans… I _do_ condemn them, too. I have opposed them in writing and in the street. Spot on mate, we saw condemnation of this act and ISIS in general from the majority of Muslims, even from the Lakemba mosque which is of the more radical persuasion. Yep extremists remind us why we need to be not just tolerant but accepting of people. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sydney-australia-terror-attack/707247/96 "2014-12-17T07:17:38Z")
> [@stui\_magpie](#): > > There’ll be questions asked about where he got the gun from too, no way he obtained it legally. You would think so, but actually it seems [he had a licence and bought it legally](http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/tony-abbott-questions-gun-laws-as-he-announces-inquiry-into-martin-place-siege-20141217-1295y2.html). What a fuckup. ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sydney-australia-terror-attack/707247/97 "2014-12-17T08:59:44Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > You would think so, but actually it seems [he had a licence and bought it legally](http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/tony-abbott-questions-gun-laws-as-he-announces-inquiry-into-martin-place-siege-20141217-1295y2.html). > > What a fuckup. [Actually, no.](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-17/sydney-siege-tony-abbott-joint-commonwealth-nsw-investigation/5973842) > [@](#): > > New South Wales Police has since disputed that, issuing a statement saying a check of the state’s Firearms Registry shows Monis did not have a gun licence. > > “There is no record of the 50-year-old ever holding one in New South Wales,” the statement said. > > In a statement released this evening, the Prime Minister’s office sought to clarify the issue, saying Mr Abbott was told during security briefings that the National Police Reference System (NPRS) showed Monis had been a firearms licence holder in the state. Trust the ABC. _Don’t_ trust Abbott. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sydney-australia-terror-attack/707247/98 "2014-12-17T09:43:02Z")
> [@galen\_ubal](#): > > Trust the ABC. _Don’t_ trust Abbott. I wish I could say I was surprised, but I was expecting our politicians to try something like this the moment the siege started. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sydney-australia-terror-attack/707247/99 "2014-12-17T10:13:52Z")
Huh. Well there you go. I don’t trust Abbott on anything arguable but it’s unusual for the PM to get caught out in a simple verifiable factual error ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sydney-australia-terror-attack/707247/100 "2014-12-17T10:24:15Z")
Well, I’m not sure how to feel about this. On the one hand, the Lindt café hostage situation came to a bitter end, but at least the terrorist met sweet justice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sydney-australia-terror-attack/707247.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sydney-australia-terror-attack/707247.md?page=6)