# SYG laws Post-Zimmerman **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2013, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syg-laws-post-zimmerman/663459 "2013-07-14T05:03:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syg-laws-post-zimmerman/663459/61 "2013-07-15T18:39:42Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > My hope is the opposite of OP’s. I hope that the Zimmerman case will open eyes to see how easily people can be killed, with the killer not guilty, in America’s gun-crazed culture. I agree. This whole thing is fucked up from the git-go. We need to reduce the number of guns. Maybe a monumental tasks, but I don’t see anything short of that making things better. > [@](#): > > We need to back off from SYG and other laws which encourage such homicides. Let’s all keep in mind that Zimmerman did not use the SYG defense in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syg-laws-post-zimmerman/663459/62 "2013-07-15T18:52:14Z")
I’m not sure how significant that us when the jury instructions themselves actually mentioned the stand your ground standard. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syg-laws-post-zimmerman/663459/63 "2013-07-15T19:01:58Z")
Since there was no testimony regarding his ability to retreat, that’s irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syg-laws-post-zimmerman/663459/64 "2013-07-15T19:03:02Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I fully admit to not watching any of the trial, nor following much of the pre trial circus at all. But I was under the impression that Zimmerman started the confrontation by accosting Martin and demanding to know what he was doing and where he was going, and doing so without a shred of legal support and, in fact, in violation of what the police told him to do. Am I wrong on that? > > Imagine for a second that Martin shot and killed Zimmerman. He testifies that Zimmerman stopped him for no reason and when Martin tried to get away, a physical confrontation occurred and he shot Zimmerman. Wouldn’t Martin be able to argue self defense because this guy, who wasn’t a police officer or in any way a representative of actual authority, stopped him. Zimmerman outweighed him and was armed, so Martin feared for his life, so he fought back and shot him. How would that case have worked out, do you think? Having a bit of trouble at this point seeing the value of ‘I don’t know anything about the case but’ type of comments. There’s been a trial, a matter of public record, televised, and I’m sure you can find extended information on it. Zimmerman’s account in extremely brief summary: he saw person he thought was suspicious, got out of vehicle to follow the person, called 911 and said he was following them, 911 operator _NOT A POLICE OFFICER, AND WITH NO LEGAL AUTHORITY TO INSTRUCT A CITIZEN_ told him ‘we don’t need you to do that’, and anyway Zimmerman said ‘OK’ though perhaps because he’d already lost sight of the person. He then started back toward his vehicle and at that point Trayvon Martin confronted him and physically attacked him. Zimmerman ended up underneath Martin with Martin punching him and banging his head on a concrete sidewalk, Zimmerman said Martin also saw Zimmerman’s gun at that point, and Zimmerman says he drew it and fired to save himself from serious injury or death in the beating and so Martin couldn’t grab the gun and shoot him. Zimmerman’s account was not proved to be true. But it was the prosecutors burden to prove it untrue, and the jury found they did not. I personally think they came up _very_ far short of disproving it. Most evidence and witnesses such as there were seemed to back Zimmerman’s account, in general. And the prosecution never seemed to have any alternative theory, just confining themselves to trying to poke holes in Zimmerman’s account, with some but limited success, and appealing to the emotions of the jury that a young man had died and somebody had to pay for it. The debate can go on whether Zimmerman was telling the truth, or to what degree, but ‘stand your ground’ was simply not relevant to the defense Zimmerman offered. He claimed a ‘classic’ self defense justification. If you want to hypothesize any and all other possible scenario’s for which there’s no evidence or which we say might have happened in some other situation, obviously there would be some where SYG applied. But it didn’t, not directly, in the actual trial. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syg-laws-post-zimmerman/663459/65 "2013-07-15T19:36:41Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > … as far as I know the police here violated Gibbs’ rule to immediately secure the crime scene because the police assumed it was an open and shut SYG case. I don’t think that statement is supported by the facts, ie specifically that the police didn’t properly investigate _because_ they though it was an open and shut _SYG_ case. We can debate separately whether flaws in the police investigation had any material effect or whether the case was open and shut. But specially on SYG, Zimmerman’s account was basically consistent from the beginning: that he’d shot Martin after Martin attacked him physically first, had pinned him down and was beating him and banging his head on the sidewalk, and Zimmerman believed Martin saw his gun and might get it first, so he shot Martin out of reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury in the beating and/or if Martin got his gun. So the police right away heard an account of _classic_ self defense, with no possible retreat, not a claim of SYG defense. And that continued throughout up to the acquittal in the trial. If you want to say the general atmosphere created in FL by the generally self defender friendly law, which includes an SYG feature, is one where the authorities have generally lowered expectations of being able to convict people who claim self defense in homicides, and that that might affect their investigative practices in some way, OK perhaps. But SYG itself is at most a _very_ indirect factor in the Zimmerman case. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syg-laws-post-zimmerman/663459/66 "2013-07-15T20:39:22Z")
I think we’ll see a reversal of this if black people start winning cases against white people using the SYG law. Though I don’t know if juries in those states would allow that ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syg-laws-post-zimmerman/663459/67 "2013-07-15T22:24:17Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I think we’ll see a reversal of this if black people start winning cases against white people using the SYG law. Though I don’t know if juries in those states would allow that [They won’t.](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/stand-ground-case-raises-specter-racial-double-standard-article-1.1399073) ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syg-laws-post-zimmerman/663459/68 "2013-07-15T22:42:40Z")
Well…so much for that then… ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syg-laws-post-zimmerman/663459/69 "2013-07-15T23:02:58Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > [They won’t.](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/stand-ground-case-raises-specter-racial-double-standard-article-1.1399073) Why? Both Marissa Alexander and her victim are African-American, for starters. On the 911 tape, we hear Rico Gray saying, “I’m outa here,” and Marissa Alexander replying, “I’ve got something for you,” followed by a shot. That is certainly evidence that allows the fact-finder to conclude she wasn’t under attack. She said the shot was a warning shot, fired “Into the air.” But the bullet hole was in the wall at about the height of Gray’s head. The shell casing was on the kitchen floor and the bullet hole was in the kitchen wall while the bullet itself was lodged in the next room’s ceiling. There’s no question that Gray was an abusive asshole who had hurt Alexander on other occasions. But the law (again, the law, that pesky irritant to having the freedom to simply decide every case based on whatever criteria strike you as useful that day) says that she must feel in IMMINENT danger of death or serious bodily injury. The 911 tape and the testimony of Gray, and both of Gray sons, directly contradicts her – all say, and the physical evidence supports, the idea that she fired at a retreating Gray. Can you explain the evidence that causes you to see it differently – that this was a Stand Your Ground case? ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syg-laws-post-zimmerman/663459/70 "2013-07-15T23:10:16Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > My hope is the opposite of OP’s. I hope that the Zimmerman case will open eyes to see how easily people can be killed, with the killer not guilty, in America’s gun-crazed culture. We need to back off from SYG and other laws which encourage such homicides. > > Reading this, one might think that **aceplace57** is unaware that _Trayvon Martin died in the encounter_. I’m sure he is aware of that of course; is he aware how callous he sounds? > > The questions have been beaten to death in other threads but, since I suppose **aceplace57** or his defenders will want to repeat the obvious, I stipulate that the teenager should not have lost his temper when provoked by the wannabe. But I don’t understand the morality of those who are completely unconcerned about his death. Completely agree! I DON’T want more SYG laws! ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syg-laws-post-zimmerman/663459/71 "2013-07-16T00:24:58Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > Having a bit of trouble at this point seeing the value of ‘I don’t know anything about the case but’ type of comments. There’s been a trial, a matter of public record, televised, and I’m sure you can find extended information on it. I’m sure if I gave a shit about it, I would. > [@Corry El](#): > > Zimmerman’s account in extremely brief summary: he saw person he thought was suspicious, got out of vehicle to follow the person, called 911 and said he was following them, 911 operator _NOT A POLICE OFFICER, AND WITH NO LEGAL AUTHORITY TO INSTRUCT A CITIZEN_ told him ‘we don’t need you to do that’, and anyway Zimmerman said ‘OK’ though perhaps because he’d already lost sight of the person. And, again, didn’t the dispatcher go on to tell Zimmerman that the police officers would meet him at the mailboxes and Zimmerman, once again, said he would? Did you leave that out of your recap because it wasn’t correct? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syg-laws-post-zimmerman/663459/72 "2013-07-16T02:16:05Z")
Don’t talk to us in pidgin English, racist! ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syg-laws-post-zimmerman/663459/73 "2013-07-16T13:38:53Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I’m sure if I gave a shit about it, I would. > > And, again, didn’t the dispatcher go on to tell Zimmerman that the police officers would meet him at the mailboxes and Zimmerman, once again, said he would? Did you leave that out of your recap because it wasn’t correct? It’s not. From the transcript: > [@](#): > > Dispatcher: Alright George we do have them on the way. Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there? > > Zimmerman: Yeah. > > Dispatcher: Alright, where you going to meet with them at? > > Zimmerman: Um, if they come in through the, uh, (knocking sound) gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, (knocking sound) straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that’s my truck…[unintelligible] > > Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of? > > Zimmerman: I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address. > > Dispatcher: Okay do you live in the area? > > Zimmerman: Yeah, I…[unintelligible] > > Dispatcher: What’s your apartment number? > > Zimmerman: It’s a home it’s [house number removed], (knocking sound) oh crap I don’t want to give it all out, I don’t know where this kid is. > > Dispatcher: Okay do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes then? > > Zimmerman: Yeah that’s fine. > > Dispatcher: Alright George, I’ll let them know to meet you around there, okay? > > Zimmerman: Actually could you have them, could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at? > > Dispatcher: Okay, yeah that’s no problem. > > Zimmerman: Should I give you my number or you got it? > > Dispatcher: Yeah I got it [phone number removed] > > Zimmerman: Yeah you got it. > > Dispatcher: Okay no problem, I’ll let them know to call you when you’re in the area. > > Zimmerman: Thanks. > > Dispatcher: You’re welcome. What happened next is disputed. Zimmerman says he started to go back to his truck and Martin appeared from the south, the prosecution alleged that Zimmerman went south and confronted Martin. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syg-laws-post-zimmerman/663459/74 "2013-07-17T00:18:58Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I think we’ll see a reversal of this if black people start winning cases against white people using the SYG law. Though I don’t know if juries in those states would allow that This is for Miss Elizabeth too: [Black man shoots white men, claims self-defense, and walks free](http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/cases/case_23) [Oh snap, it happened again!](http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/cases/case_89) ---
**Author:** ![PBear42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PBear42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear42)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syg-laws-post-zimmerman/663459/75 "2013-07-17T05:12:18Z")
Come now, you’re being disingenuous. The Tampa Bay Times [article](http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/florida-stand-your-ground-law-yields-some-shocking-outcomes-depending-on/1233133) from which these incidents were extracted shows a pattern of differential outcomes based on race of the shooter and target Why this is so may be debated, but no one claims blacks never get the benefit of SYG. The question is why they get less benefit. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syg-laws-post-zimmerman/663459/76 "2013-07-17T07:18:47Z")
> [@PBear42](#): > > Come now, you’re being disingenuous. The Tampa Bay Times [article](http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/florida-stand-your-ground-law-yields-some-shocking-outcomes-depending-on/1233133) from which these incidents were extracted shows a pattern of differential outcomes based on race of the shooter and target Why this is so may be debated, but no one claims blacks never get the benefit of SYG. The question is why they get less benefit. Maybe because blacks are … you know … more likely to … ummm … commit violent felonies that give rise to deadly force in self defense? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syg-laws-post-zimmerman/663459/77 "2013-07-17T13:19:46Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Don’t talk to us in pidgin English, racist! This was supposed to be in another thread. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syg-laws-post-zimmerman/663459/78 "2013-07-17T14:15:26Z")
The Attorney General’s take on this question: [QUOTE=WSJ Online] … Mr. Holder denounced laws that permit a person to use force in self-defense without first attempting to retreat from the situation. At the convention of the NAACP on Tuesday, Attorney General Eric Holder blasted “stand-your-ground laws” in the wake of the acquittal of George Zimmerman for fatally shooting Trayvon Martin. “Separate and apart from the case that has drawn the nation’s attention, it’s time to question laws that senselessly expand the concept of self-defense and sow dangerous conflict in our neighborhoods,” Mr. Holder said. It was the first time the attorney general criticized such laws publicly, and by raising the issue in a speech largely about Mr. Martin’s death, he suggested a connection between the shooting and the enactment of such laws. Mr. Holder drew sustained applause when he declared, “We must stand our ground to ensure that our laws reduce violence and take a hard look at laws that contribute to more violence than they prevent.” [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syg-laws-post-zimmerman/663459/79 "2013-07-17T14:20:20Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Maybe because blacks are … you know … more likely to … ummm … commit violent felonies that give rise to deadly force in self defense? Ah, the old idea that society isn’t unfair; black are just _genuinely_ subhuman. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syg-laws-post-zimmerman/663459/80 "2013-07-17T16:25:36Z")
The problem that I see with Stand your Ground laws is that there are many cases like the Zimmerman case where both people involved have a legitimate claim to feeling threatened by the other party. Imagine two rival gangbangers with a blood feud meeting on the street each knowing the other is armed. Without the requirement to retreat it is in both parties best interest to kill the other because there is no negative consequences for doing so. Further they know that the other party has no negative consequences for killing them so if they fail to act they’re a dead man. Thus the only sensible action is to escalate as quickly as possible before the other party does so. It just comes down to who is the quickest draw. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syg-laws-post-zimmerman/663459.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syg-laws-post-zimmerman/663459.md?page=5)