# Symbiosis does not develop over time **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 3, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054 "2013-06-03T18:29:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/1 "2013-06-03T18:29:49Z")
Can anyone please cite an example of a symbiotic relationship (not just mutualistic) relationship developing over time, please? Thank you, these citations were refused to me in the GQ thread. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/2 "2013-06-03T18:47:43Z")
Animal cells and mitochondria, plant cells and chloroplasts, humans and _e coli_ bacteria; such relationships are all over nature, and it’s unlikely that any happened instantly. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/3 "2013-06-03T19:05:50Z")
Seed plants, and the various organisms that pollinate them. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/4 "2013-06-03T19:08:06Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Can anyone please cite an example of a symbiotic relationship (not just mutualistic) relationship developing over time, please? Thank you, these citations were refused to me in the GQ thread. Can you show us an example in nature of a symbiotic relationship that _didn’t_ develop over a period of time? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/5 "2013-06-03T19:15:22Z")
Wasn’t this discussed at some length in your other thread? [Sample here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15425158#post15425158) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/6 "2013-06-03T19:19:37Z")
Well, others have already talked about endosymbiotic relationships, but [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_symbiotic_relationships) is a (non-comprehensive) list from Wiki: > [@](#): > > Endosymbiotic relationships > Symbiosis by luci Endosymbiont Role of endosymbiont Role of host > Euprymna scolopes (Mollusca) Vibrio fischeri Counter-illumination via bioluminescence[1] Reproduction > Legumes Rhizobia Nitrogen-Relationship with the symbiotic host Organic acids (principally as the dicarboxylic acids malate and succinate) > Anglerfish Bioluminescent bacteria Bioluminescent lure for prey capture Protection > Vascular plants mycorrhizae Sequestering of phosphate ions from soil, disease protection Photosynthates > Parasitoid wasps Polydnavirus Immune suppression of parasite host Propagation of the virus > Poaceae (grasses) Endophytic fungi Disease prevention, Drought tolerance[2] Photosynthates > Autotrophic endosymbioses > Host Endosymbiont Role of endosymbiont Role of host > Coral (Cnidaria) Zooxanthellae Photosynthates Protection, inorganic nutrients > Foraminifera (protists) Variety of algae Photosynthates Locomotion, protection, inorganic nutrients > Sponges (Porifera) Variety of algae (Often green-algae) Photosynthates Protection, inorganic nutrients > Hydra viridis (Cnidaria) Chlorella Photosynthates[3] Inorganic nutrients > Elysia viridis (Mollusca) Codium fragile Photosynthates[4] Locomotion, protection, inorganic nutrients > Convoluta roscoffensis (Platyhelminthes, traditionally) Tetraselmis convolutae Photosynthates Locomotion, protection, inorganic nutrients > Pompeii worm Alvinella pompejana (Annelida) Thermophilic chemoautotrophic bacteria Insulation, chemosynthates Locomotion, inorganic nutrients > Mole salamanders Oophila Oxygen (from photosynthesis) Carbon dioxide (from respiration) > Riftia pachyptila (Annelida) Bacteria > Solemya velum (Mollusca) Sulfur-oxidizing chemoautotrophic bacteria[5] > Orphium Frutescens Xylocopa violacea (Female Carpenter Bee) nutrients for larvae Locomotion of Reproduction Kind of an odd question, and I’m not sure why this wasn’t allowed in GQ since it’s a GQ type question. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/7 "2013-06-03T19:19:48Z")
Are you asking for documentation as it happened or are you asking for reasonable extrapolations from current observations? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/8 "2013-06-03T19:20:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Wasn’t this discussed at some length in your other thread? [Sample here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15425158#post15425158) Ah…I see. Never mind then. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/9 "2013-06-03T19:22:25Z")
“No true symbiotic Scotsman” then? ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/10 "2013-06-03T19:38:28Z")
I agree with the OP. It was God who put the malaria protist in the gut of the mosquito. He did it because he loves us. ---
**Author:** ![mozchron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@mozchron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mozchron)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/11 "2013-06-03T19:45:52Z")
[One of my favorite examples.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17439303) Summary - harmful bacterium rapidly sweeps through fruit fly populations. Within 20 years, the relationship has evolved into a mutualism. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/12 "2013-06-03T19:50:38Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Kind of an odd question, and I’m not sure why this wasn’t allowed in GQ since it’s a GQ type question. This was the OPs original post on the subject in GQ, in a [thread about pollination](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=692744): > [@Did Flowering Plants Evolve Because of Insects?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-flowering-plants-evolve-because-of-insects/660014/7): > > The nature of symbiotic relationships is that both parties must have come into existence simultaneously. This is an argument for creation, and not evolution, obviously. Since he seems to be developing a pattern of hijacking threads on evolution in GQ into a discussion of creationism, I told him to take further discussion to Great Debates. The question is an attempt to support creationism. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/13 "2013-06-03T19:59:29Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Can anyone please cite an example of a symbiotic relationship (not just mutualistic) relationship developing over time, please? Thank you, these citations were refused to me in the GQ thread. First, define exactly what you mean by symbiosis. One of the classic examples of a symbiotic relationships is lichens, involving species of fungi and algae. In many cases both the fungus and the algal species are able to live separately. The symbiosis can develop over the lifetime of the organisms, not over evolutionary time. Another is between coral and the algal zooanthellae that usually live in their tissues. Again, both partners are capable of living separately. The symbiosis develops during the lifetime of the organisms. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/14 "2013-06-03T20:05:40Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] Since he seems to be developing a pattern of hijacking threads on evolution in GQ into a discussion of creationism, I told him to take further discussion to Great Debates. The question is an attempt to support creationism. [/QUOTE] Yeah, I kind of got that same vibe from Marley’s link. Not sure why the OP thinks that they would have to come into existence simultaneously, except the obvious ‘this guy doesn’t actually know or understand anything about biology or evolution’. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/15 "2013-06-03T20:19:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > “No true symbiotic Scotsman” then? On the contrary, that’s what a True Scotsman keeps in his sporran; his symbiote! > [@XT](#): > > Yeah, I kind of got that same vibe from Marley’s link. Not sure why the OP thinks that they would have to come into existence simultaneously, except the obvious ‘this guy doesn’t actually know or understand anything about biology or evolution’. It seems a common theme of creationists to pretend that the gradual change of evolution isn’t even conceivable; “what use is half an eye”. Or in this case, “what use is half a symbiote?” ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/16 "2013-06-03T20:28:08Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > “No true symbiotic Scotsman” then? I expect what he means by “symbiosis” is a mutually obligate mutualism. But there are lots of symbiotic relationships in which the mutualism is obligate for only one partner; or species that are symbiotic with a variety of different species. Even obligate mutualists often have close relatives in which the mutualism occurs but is not obligate. All stages along the continuum of commensalism/parasitism/mutualism occur, sometimes between the same species during different stages of their life history. > [@XT](#): > > Not sure why the OP thinks that they would have to come into existence simultaneously, except the obvious ‘this guy doesn’t actually know or understand anything about biology or evolution’. That’s about the size of it. That’s almost a requisite to believe in creationism in any case. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/17 "2013-06-03T20:42:33Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Yeah, I kind of got that same vibe from Marley’s link. Not sure why the OP thinks that they would have to come into existence simultaneously, except the obvious ‘this guy doesn’t actually know or understand anything about biology or evolution’. Or physics. He’s been witnessed trying to school _ **Chronos** _ about the speed of light by quoting Wikipedia, fer gosh sakes… ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/18 "2013-06-03T21:07:18Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Kind of an odd question, and I’m not sure why this wasn’t allowed in GQ since it’s a GQ type question. And, since we’re in GD, what’s the debate, here, seeing as how people have provided twenty or thirty examples? ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/19 "2013-06-03T21:24:09Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Well, others have already talked about endosymbiotic relationships, but [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_symbiotic_relationships) is a (non-comprehensive) list from Wiki: > > Kind of an odd question, and I’m not sure why this wasn’t allowed in GQ since it’s a GQ type question. Thank you for the cite, but how do we know that those relationshops developed over time? Weren’t they all symbiotic relationships as far back as we can observe? ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/20 "2013-06-03T21:25:13Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Or physics. He’s been witnessed trying to school _ **Chronos** _ about the speed of light by quoting Wikipedia, fer gosh sakes… More circumstantial ad hominem. Stick with the message instead of a person’s reputation. Thats the second time i had to tell you that. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054.md?page=2)