# Symbiosis does not develop over time **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 3, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054 "2013-06-03T18:29:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/161 "2013-06-13T15:50:46Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Please explain how whales reproduce and attach to each other during that process, to correct me. Thank you. Please explain the role these vestigial bones play. Your assumption that the structures are similar appears to be a dodge or a badly uninformed mistake. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Animals have their own planet? I hope it’s not that terrible planet of the apes. Wait a minute… Statue of Liberty?!? That was our planet! You maniacs! You blew it up! Damn you! Damn you all to hell!!! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/162 "2013-06-13T15:54:50Z")
Ever see the porno version? “Put your hands all over me, you damn dirty ape!” ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/163 "2013-06-13T15:55:33Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Have you really done your due diligence on this? > > If you did, you would notice why only SOME have these bones? > For example, the North Sea Beaked Whale, only the males have this..They are anchor bones for the reproductive organs. Oh, now they’re anchor bones. Before they were to hold the female whale. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/164 "2013-06-13T15:58:16Z")
The bones are evolving as we talk! ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/165 "2013-06-13T15:58:33Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Why do you keep saying these are ‘hip bones’? Please explain how whales reproduce and attach to each other during that process, to correct me. Thank you. Pretty much the same way other mammals attach to each other. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/166 "2013-06-13T16:04:39Z")
Well Reef Shark, when a daddy whale loves a mommy whale very much… ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/167 "2013-06-16T03:52:01Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Well Reef Shark, when a daddy whale loves a mommy whale very much… …and then many, many months later–the stork brings the baby! But seriously, if the Animal Planet is one type of reference provided as a "cite, and the scientific literature provided as another type of cite, are these types of cites analogous or homologous? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/168 "2013-06-16T04:09:55Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > You still have not read Genesis 1, have you? Could you please explain why Genesis 1 should be considered to be a source for biological knowledge? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/169 "2013-06-16T04:17:53Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I will be very interested to learn how whales use their vestigial legs in reproduction. I’m sure there’s a ground-breaking paper in _Science_ there.😃 Reverse cowgirl. You _did_ know that this is why girl whales are called “cows,” right? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/170 "2013-06-16T04:20:35Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Could you please explain why Genesis 1 should be considered to be a source for biological knowledge? And…yes, we have read it! We’re familiar with it! Does he somehow imagine that scientifically literate people are Biblically illiterate? Far from it! Many of us here have read Genesis, not just 1, but the whole book, and all of the books that follow, including the Apocrypha, and several of the other books that didn’t get in, such as the Nag Hammadi manuscripts. And the Koran, Bhagavad Gita (although I’ve read it, I can’t spell it without looking it up!) the Book of Mormon, etc. etc. Funny thing, there isn’t a word in any of them about DNA changes over time. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/171 "2013-06-16T04:50:03Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > For the fifth time, i simply refer you to the animal planet. I keep reading this thread for entertainment but it’s clear there is no cite or proof you will accept so I’ve stayed out of it. However regarding the above, can you stop dodging and just briefly describe (in your own words) what you believe the role of the whale bones are in reproduction? Seriously, you’ve typed out five times as many words dodging the question as it would have taken to just answer it. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/172 "2013-06-16T05:46:56Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Have you really done your due diligence on this? Yes I have. Conversely, it’s clear that you don’t have the foggiest idea of what you are talking about. > [@](#): > > If you did, you would notice why only SOME have these bones? Of course. This is exactly what would be expected if these bones were rudimentary and non-functional. If they were functional, all whales would presumably have them. Since you acknowledge that some species lack them, please explain how those species which lack these bones manage to reproduce. (You seem to have a lot of trouble keeping your own arguments straight.) > [@](#): > > For example, the North Sea Beaked Whale, only the males have this..They are anchor bones for the reproductive organs. Cite? In species in which both sexes have the bones, what is the precise function in the females? As previously requested, please explain in detail how these bones are used in reproduction. While you’re at it, explain the function of the rudimentary pelvic bones in the blind and thread snakes, which are entirely internal. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/173 "2013-06-16T05:54:01Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Please explain how whales reproduce and attach to each other during that process, to correct me. Thank you. The videos show it. The male inserts his flexible and muscular penis in the vagina of the female. There is no involvement of any other external structures. The pelvic bones are entirely internal and play no role in “attaching” the male to the female. Seriously, this really is pretty simple. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/174 "2013-06-16T05:58:31Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > I have referred to a simple animal planet (croc hunter) show about 4 times now, yet you keep asking me. Can you please check that youself, at all, instead of accusing me of regurgitation? “I saw it on some episode of Animal Planet” does not constitute a cite. And no, I’m not going to watch every episode of Animal Planet to try to figure out which one you misunderstood. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/175 "2013-06-16T11:46:39Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > “I saw it on some episode of Animal Planet” does not constitute a cite. And no, I’m not going to watch every episode of Animal Planet to try to figure out which one you misunderstood. I have a citation that entirely refutes the argument made by Animal Planet. You can find the refutation in a paper. The paper is in a book, or possibly a journal collection, and that book can easily be found in your local university library. Or even on the internet! It couldn’t be simpler! Why don’t you just go read it instead of expecting ME to do all the work?! ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054/176 "2013-06-16T17:25:55Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > If you did, you would notice why only SOME have these bones? > For example, the North Sea Beaked Whale, only the males have this..They are anchor bones for the reproductive organs. Ok, I did your homework for you. In [Sowerby’s Beaked Whale,](http://books.google.com.pa/books?id=ASIVAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=north+sea+beaked+whale+pelvic+bones&source=bl&ots=g2u5u3KYwU&sig=xcgD5YdTJ3XXfw9pgQ9KLuZyEUQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1Oq9Ucz7DJTc8wSbpYGgDw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=north%20sea%20beaked%20whale%20pelvic%20bones&f=false) aka the North Sea Beaked Whale _Mesoplodon bidens_, the penis is attached to the pelvic bones. However, this is not true in most whales, and in many whales the bones are present in both males and females. Of course, this is not what you originally said. You confused the issue by implying that whales somehow used these bones to “attach” to one another, in the same way that boas and pythons do (although they are not used this way by other snakes with leg remnants). You had no idea of the actual function: [QUOTE=reef shark] Please explain how whales reproduce and attach to each other during that process, to correct me. [/QUOTE] The same article also notes: > [@](#): > > The remaining bones of the pelvic girdle are not uniform throughout all whales or even in any of the families of whales. Also, the number of bones which is present varies from one to several bones. Some whales have only the pelvic (innominate) bones; some have the pelvic bones and the femur; some have the pelvic bones, the femur, and the tibia; and still other whales have these bones plus the bones of the ankle, foot, and toes, all greatly modified from their ancestral number, size, and structure. As I said above, we expect this kind of variation in vestigial and non-functional structures. There is no association with reproductive function in a large majority of whales. (If you still want to make the argument that the function of the pelvis is as an attachment for the penis, you need to also explain the retention of the femur and tibia as well as the presence of all these bones in females of many species.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbiosis-does-not-develop-over-time/660054.md?page=8)