# Symbolism in David Lynch's "Dune." **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 4, 2009, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbolism-in-david-lynchs-dune/512528 "2009-10-04T07:18:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbolism-in-david-lynchs-dune/512528/41 "2009-10-07T09:01:31Z")
You don’t think it’s merely in reference to the earlier “mind killer” phrase? Seems the simplest answer - repetition as reinforcement, fear as the death of resolve, of will, of self-control - the facet of the human experience Herbert seemed to be arguing as the defining characteristic of “humanity” in that scene. So not the “big death” of the human body, but the “little death” of their humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbolism-in-david-lynchs-dune/512528/42 "2009-10-07T09:26:07Z")
I think the idea was that the orgasm was a metaphor for the pain, and Paul was not supposed to give in to the pain (the same pain which clearly caused the Reverend Mother to have an orgasm right there in front of him.) Paul’s ability to overcome the pain is a parallel to the historic virtue of a heroic man being able to overcome his sexual urges. Again and again, “giving into” sexual desires proves to be very dangerous to various heroes, such as Odysseus, to give a classic example. Paul is supposed to resist the “little death.” What is so confusing about this? It seems SO obvious, now that all of this is considered. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbolism-in-david-lynchs-dune/512528/43 "2009-10-07T09:35:30Z")
Only if you accept (as I _don’t_) that R.M. Mohiam was having an orgasm. That may be Lynch’s gloss on the scene, but the words are Herbert’s and there’s no orgasm implied in the book scene IIRC. While Herbert had no problem conveying the idea of sexual control by the BG (e.g. Feyd Harkonnen’s conditioning described elsewhere), the way the scene is written, there’s no sexual subtext I can see. Mohiam is not described in asexual way, and Paul’s thoughts are not sexual at all - he is repeating the LAF by rote as a mantra against fear of actual physical pain, not sexual frustration or anything like it. There’s nothing particularly sexy about picturing you hand burned to the bone. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbolism-in-david-lynchs-dune/512528/44 "2009-10-07T12:43:47Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > He did. Quite clearly. By referring to it as “the little death.”\* Fait accompli.\* Whatever. Repeating your same, stupid assertation does not make it any less stupid and unsupported. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbolism-in-david-lynchs-dune/512528/45 "2009-10-07T12:52:30Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I think the idea was that the orgasm was a metaphor for the pain, and Paul was not supposed to give in to the pain (the same pain which clearly caused the Reverend Mother to have an orgasm right there in front of him.) Paul’s ability to overcome the pain is a parallel to the historic virtue of a heroic man being able to overcome his sexual urges. Again and again, “giving into” sexual desires proves to be very dangerous to various heroes, such as Odysseus, to give a classic example. Paul is supposed to resist the “little death.” What is so confusing about this? It seems SO obvious, now that all of this is considered. Except that Herbert no where establishes or even eludes to this “parallel” of overcoming fear being equivalent to overcoming sexual urges. Despite the danger of sexual urges being one of the themes of his books. And the Litany Against Fear is a mantra for the _Bene Gesserit_. Who, far from regarding orgasms as something that brings “total obliteration”, are trained to _use_ their sexuality for imprinting to further the cause of the Bene Gesserit. The Bene Gesserit do not think that orgasms are _bad_; they think they’re useful. The Bene Gesserit _do_ think that fear is bad, however. To the extent that if you give in to fear, they don’t think you are human, and they kill you. They’re just fine with people giving in to orgasms, however. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbolism-in-david-lynchs-dune/512528/46 "2009-10-07T15:20:57Z")
Just a question - I never got the impression that the BG went around killing _anyone_ who wasn’t “human”(which, BTW, I gathered was more “Superhuman” in an almost Nietzschean sense than anything else), only those who were important cogs in their breeding program - “weeding out the sports”, as it were. I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t give a crap if a Caladan peasant crapped his pants as soon as his hand went in the box. Am I wrong? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbolism-in-david-lynchs-dune/512528/47 "2009-10-07T15:29:38Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Just a question - I never got the impression that the BG went around killing _anyone_ who wasn’t “human”(which, BTW, I gathered was more “Superhuman” in an almost Nietzschean sense than anything else), only those who were important cogs in their breeding program - “weeding out the sports”, as it were. I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t give a crap if a Caladan peasant crapped his pants as soon as his hand went in the box. Am I wrong? I think it would really depend. Not all of their breeding lines were nobles or royalty. And I can’t believe that an organization with the practicality of the BG would reject a genetic line out of hand just because they were currently on the downside of the wheel. Noble families have had to vanish into exile or obscurity in the past…just because someone’s a nondescript peasant doesn’t mean that he doesn’t have important genes. The BG isn’t breeding for the same reason that nobility and royalty guarded their bloodlines in our history. They’re breeding for a genetic potential, and arbitrary titles aren’t part of that. Although you are right…they didn’t necessarily test everybody. They test all the candidates for entry into the sisterhood, for sure, because they ARE the ongoing breeding stock. Paul was special…RM Mohiam knew that he was a potential Kwizatz Haderach, because she and Jessica talked about it while she was visiting Castle Caladan. I don’t know that they routinely tested males at all, actually. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbolism-in-david-lynchs-dune/512528/48 "2009-10-07T15:35:00Z")
Yes, I got the impression they only routinely tested BG and _potential_ KHs ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbolism-in-david-lynchs-dune/512528/49 "2009-10-07T15:41:36Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yes, I got the impression they only routinely tested BG and _potential_ KHs According to the Dune Encyclopedia, Count Fenring (the Emperor’s friend and agent…the one who threatened Baron Harkonnen and whose wife seduced Feyd-Rautha after the arena incident) was also a potential KH, and was tested with the gom jabbar. However, Fenring turned out to be a genetic eunuch (couldn’t reproduce…don’t know whether that means he was sterile or if it means he had no testicles or what) and was therefore unsuitable for the Sisterhood’s purposes. Paul’s recognition of Fenring’s defect was the reason that Fenring couldn’t kill him when Shaddam ordered him to at Arrakeen. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbolism-in-david-lynchs-dune/512528/50 "2009-10-07T16:31:45Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Just a question - I never got the impression that the BG went around killing _anyone_ who wasn’t “human”(which, BTW, I gathered was more “Superhuman” in an almost Nietzschean sense than anything else), only those who were important cogs in their breeding program - “weeding out the sports”, as it were. I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t give a crap if a Caladan peasant crapped his pants as soon as his hand went in the box. Am I wrong? If a BG went to the trouble of putting that Caladanian peasant’s hand into their agony box, he’s going to die if he flinches. Even if he’s not in their breeding program. Unlikely he’d end up in either, of course. But the real kicker to the gom jabbar test is that the BG _don’t consider you human unless you’ve passed it_. At best, you’re a “maybe” human until then… which is key to the whole outlook of the BG, and how they deal with others. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbolism-in-david-lynchs-dune/512528/51 "2009-10-07T17:50:55Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > My sense is that he was adding a kind of Freudian layer to the scene; the innate sexual nature of most fears and passions. Doubtful. Herbert was a Jungian. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbolism-in-david-lynchs-dune/512528/52 "2009-10-07T18:03:21Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Paul’s recognition of Fenring’s defect was the reason that Fenring couldn’t kill him when Shaddam ordered him to at Arrakeen. That, and Fenring also recognized him. I also find it rather hilarious that, though **Lissener** was and is wrong, we couldn’t really argue with him… precisely because he was wrong. It’s hard to argue against the man who has no case whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbolism-in-david-lynchs-dune/512528/53 "2009-10-07T19:16:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Only if you accept (as I _don’t_) that R.M. Mohiam was having an orgasm. That may be Lynch’s gloss on the scene, but the words are Herbert’s and there’s no orgasm implied in the book scene IIRC. … It’s pretty clear to me that the R.M. Mohiam had “mind melded” with Paul. What we see is her experiencing his physical pain. We know this because she specifically comments on how remarkable the level of pain that Paul tolerated was. The test isn’t “put your hand in the box” it’s “put your hand in the box while I observe you in every possible way”. He could have learned some trick to resist the pain from Gurney or Thufir. He hadn’t, he used his B.G. training to resist. The only way to know that is to hear him repeating the litany in his head. > [@](#): > > … And yet Mohiam is somewhat intrigued by the potential she sees in 15-year old Paul. Unknown to them at first, Paul is indeed the [Kwisatz Haderach](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwisatz_Haderach), a generation earlier than expected. … > … “And you in your pride thought you could produce the Kwisatz Haderach!” > Jessica lifted her chin. “I sensed the possibility.” … > … Unprepared for his early arrival, the Bene Gesserit fail to control the young man as planned … R.M. Mohiam was so blinded by her faith in the breeding program that she missed the obvious, Jessica was right and Paul’s test proved it, until it was to late for the B.G. to do anything to make Paul into the K.W. they wanted. Soo, since “water of life” is aqua vitae in Latin and from that we get aquavit, spice essence (Water of Life in Fremen) must be licorice flavored? ('Course anyone who would make that argument would be an idiot since Herbert is clear that spice and it’s related substances are cinnamon flavored, right?) CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbolism-in-david-lynchs-dune/512528/54 "2009-10-07T19:52:07Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > It’s pretty clear to me that the R.M. Mohiam had “mind melded” with Paul. What we see is her experiencing his physical pain. We know this because she specifically comments on how remarkable the level of pain that Paul tolerated was. Well, that or she knew that she had turned the knob to 11. There’s nothing in the book (as opposed to the movie) to indicate that she shared the pain he felt. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbolism-in-david-lynchs-dune/512528/55 "2009-10-07T20:04:44Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Well, that or she knew that she had turned the knob to 11. There’s nothing in the book (as opposed to the movie) to indicate that she shared the pain he felt. We could be here all week if we started going into things that are different in the book than in the movie… ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbolism-in-david-lynchs-dune/512528/56 "2009-10-07T20:39:27Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You don’t think it’s merely in reference to the earlier “mind killer” phrase? Seems the simplest answer - repetition as reinforcement, fear as the death of resolve, of will, of self-control - the facet of the human experience Herbert seemed to be arguing as the defining characteristic of “humanity” in that scene. So not the “big death” of the human body, but the “little death” of their humanity. Absolutely, that’s another intended layer. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbolism-in-david-lynchs-dune/512528/57 "2009-10-07T20:43:31Z")
> [@Dr.Rieux](#): > > Doubtful. Herbert was a Jungian. Potatoes potahtoes. It’s clear from many other aspects of his books that he was conscious of an underlying eros in the passions of the human psyche. (Must one refer to the worms _again_?) ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbolism-in-david-lynchs-dune/512528/58 "2009-10-08T00:12:24Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Soo, since “water of life” is aqua vitae in Latin and from that we get aquavit, spice essence (Water of Life in Fremen) must be licorice flavored? No, that’s _caraway_ flavored. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbolism-in-david-lynchs-dune/512528/59 "2009-10-08T02:01:25Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Potatoes potahtoes. It’s clear from many other aspects of his books that he was conscious of an underlying eros in the passions of the human psyche. (Must one refer to the worms _again_?) It’s hard to see how anyone can avoid injecting sex into everything if you starst thinking along your lines. If you insist on seeing sex in everything, then you wil succeed even if it brings you to meaningless, pointless, and fruitless pursuits like today’s. ---
**Author:** ![Stowed\_Bob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stowed_bob/32/3312_2.png) [@Stowed\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stowed_Bob)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbolism-in-david-lynchs-dune/512528/60 "2009-10-08T02:12:14Z")
I was liking this thread until people began insisting their interpretations were absolutes. Sexual or non-sexual, it is interesting to hear what people see and why they see it that way. A story is never finished until someone reads it. On that note, I took the Gom Jabbar test as never lethal. The threat of death and the story about humans being socially considerate through sacrifice was part of coercing the subject into the state of mind for observation. Dead bodies, or even unexplained absences, draw unwanted attention. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbolism-in-david-lynchs-dune/512528.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/symbolism-in-david-lynchs-dune/512528.md?page=4)