# Synagogue shooting in Pittsburgh, 2018 October 27 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 27, 2018, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600 "2018-10-27T19:57:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/81 "2018-10-28T23:13:06Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I agree that those are all the normal courses of action. I am just concerned that we are far enough from normal that those courses of action may no longer be the best courses of action. We need to get specific. If bombings increase 10 times… that’s not a mob. It should be addressed via law enforcement. Ditto for 100 times. In Charlottesville, we had a mob. And the antifa _squared off_ against them. They didn’t just “Jump in”. Jumping into a mob is a terrible idea as you give your back to your enemy. Again, don’t do this crap without training. Charlottesville did grievous damage to the alt-right. More video coverage of it would have been even better. Some of the alt-right perps were caught. But not all. [This guy](https://twitter.com/shaunking/status/1023216136811421696) is still at large. Those with camera skills should be encouraged to use them. _That_ is where we are I say. > [@](#): > > BTW: SWM? Single White Male, or Scared White Male? Straight White Male. > [@](#): > > Yes, but to quote the only good line from _Welcome to Sarajevo_, “And are we moving up or down that scale?” > > You don’t notice that you are in a lawless anarchy until you see a mob beating up on a minority, and the cops decide that they don’t want to help. Having viewed at least one riot, actually you can tell where things are going. As for the nation, it is trending in an authoritarian direction, based upon other country’s experience with the same. But we need to be clear eyed about this; we need to see things how they are, as opposed to what we fear on the one hand or hope on the other. I believe it is appropriate to have these sorts of discussions now. We are not near authoritarian rule and [on November 6th we need to keep it that way](https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/the-stakes-are-dire). > [@](#): > > But buying a gun means that I have an intention to use it to kill someone else, and that’s not a step I am comfortable taking yet. If you are buying a gun with the intent of using it to intervene on behalf of a third party, methinks you risk a prison sentence if you use it in that fashion without training. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/82 "2018-10-28T23:26:31Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > One of the women in the photo on today’s NYT and WaPo stories is actually a third cousin of mine whom I met via a Jewish genealogy board while she was researching a common ancestor. She just moved to Pittsburgh a year or two ago and lost friends in the shooting. > > So far I have not seen any Jew who I know or to whom I am related want to respond by posting armed guards at synagogues, and certainly I have seen no desire to respond with violence. Just dismay and sadness. Someone on Facebook commented that “this wouldn’t have happened” if there were armed guards. I pointed out that 4 cops with guns were shot yesterday and that shut him up. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/83 "2018-10-28T23:35:13Z")
FWIW there is an off-duty, uniformed policeman at the synagogue I attend on Friday night. He’s seated in the reception area behind a desk. I assume he’s armed, but I don’t consider him on a “hair trigger.” I guess there’s one on Saturday morning, too. I’ve been going to this synagogue for 20-ish years and I can’t remember a time when there wasn’t a cop or two there on Friday nights. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/84 "2018-10-29T00:09:42Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > So far I have not seen any Jew who I know or to whom I am related want to respond by posting armed guards at synagogues, and certainly I have seen no desire to respond with violence. Just dismay and sadness. My mother has been trying to improve our shul’s security for years, full-time armed guards included. There wasn’t much interest. I think things may be different now. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/85 "2018-10-29T00:35:47Z")
The right is absolutely shit your pants terrified of “antifa” which, far as I can tell is the real life equivalent of Chopper from “Stand by me” (“The most feared and least seen dog in Castle Rock”) and yet have nothing to say about actual people shooting other actual people. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/86 "2018-10-29T00:36:01Z")
Sherrerd: > [@](#): > > On the idea that we’re headed into a period of increasing violent attacks on everyone who fails to be a white Christian heterosexual male: if so, it’s not “the forces of history” causing the increase. It’s Donald Fucking Trump. Right. And when Dylan Roof did the same thing (albeit to African-Americans rather than to Jews) Donald Trump was where, exactly? Violent racists with guns are not a Trump phenomenon. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/87 "2018-10-29T00:38:05Z")
[Josh Marshall](https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1056551742295425025): > [@](#): > > To paraphrase Andrew Gillum, I’m not saying Trump’s an anti-Semite. But anti-Semites think he’s an anti-Semite. And I can tell you myself that Trump has never had a problem with that. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/88 "2018-10-29T02:18:01Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Thoughts and prayers First, a pause to acknowledge that, yes, I recognize this as snark. Next, a proper response to those who actually offer this excuse: [QUOTE=Isaiah 1:15] When you spread out your hands in prayer, I hide my eyes from you; even when you offer many prayers, I am not listening. Your hands are full of blood! [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/89 "2018-10-29T03:39:18Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Sherrerd: > > Right. And when Dylan Roof did the same thing (albeit to African-Americans rather than to Jews) Donald Trump was where, exactly? > > Violent racists with guns are not a Trump phenomenon. > **[Analysis | In 2015, Donald Trump said the Confederate flag should go in a...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/08/18/in-2015-donald-trump-said-the-confederate-flag-should-go-in-a-museum-heres-what-changed/?utm_term=.2aae67f84927)** > > Trump is moving more and more toward the GOP base. > [@](#): > > Two days after Donald Trump announced his presidential candidacy, Dylann Roof shot and killed nine African American worshipers at the historically black Emanuel A.M.E. Church in Charleston, S.C. Pictures of Roof holding Confederate flags soon surfaced — and so, too, did calls from Democratic and Republican politicians to remove the flag and other Confederate symbols from government property. > > Trump was one of those politicians. Within a week of the shooting, Trump came out in favor of taking the Confederate flag down from South Carolina’s Capitol, adding, “I think they should put it in the museum and let it go.” Politico summarized his position: “Trump to Confederate flag: You’re fired!” > > Of course, Trump took a much different position on Confederate symbols this week. He described removing Confederate statues as “changing history … changing culture.” He defended marchers in a white supremacist rally that turned violent, saying they were protesting the removal of “a very, very important statue.” And, according to a White House source, he “expressed sympathy with nonviolent protesters who he said were defending their ‘heritage.’ ” > > Trump’s shift on Confederate symbols parallels his evolving connection to Republican voters — a majority of whom, according to a poll taken shortly after the Charleston church shooting, opposed both efforts to ban displays of the Confederate flag on government property and to remove tributes to those who fought for the Confederacy from public places. So, where was Trump then? Just about exactly where Bush the lesser was when he had the chance to also go against the supporters of racist symbols. First Bush II appeared in a Parade Magazine interview showing the reporter a huge picture of Sam Houston in his office, the Texas Governor who refused to swear allegiance to the Confederate States of America, Houston had to be removed from power in Texas for that. For things like that Dubya said that Houston was his hero. Then when the issue of the confederate flag flared up during his candidacy, Bush the lesser decided to toss his hero under the bus by saying then that states like South Carolina had the right to continue to keep it flying in their capitol. Showing that Bush had very little character. Of course, finding that Trump has even **less** character than even Bush had is not a surprise, but it is more surprising to see even more Republicans do a three monkey act nowadays when confronted with that lack of character from their leaders. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/90 "2018-10-29T03:41:14Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Maybe you could [install one of these.](http://www.shehnoorgroup.com/other-2.html) Outside every school, place of worship (not embracing mosques) and mall. And oh, cinema. And don’t forget – you’ll need one at every door. A modest expense, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/91 "2018-10-29T16:43:27Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > The right is absolutely shit your pants terrified of “antifa” which, far as I can tell is the real life equivalent of Chopper from “Stand by me” (“The most feared and least seen dog in Castle Rock”) and yet have nothing to say about actual people shooting other actual people. Remember how many folks on both sides lost their composure when alleged antifa people merely _punched_ these murderous loons? Let’s see that outrage upped a millionfold for mass shooters, please. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/92 "2018-10-29T16:48:22Z")
Every time I hear someone say “If only someone with a gun had been there…” what I hear in my head is “If only _I_ been there with a gun I would have been a fuckin’ _hero!_”. Is it only me? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/93 "2018-10-29T18:06:58Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > [Josh Marshall](https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1056551742295425025): Speaking of the Gillum race, DeSantis is back to warning people about “[Soros-backed activists](https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/413640-desantis-claimed-gillum-would-appoint-soros-backed-activists-if-elected)” getting appointed to the state government if Gillum wins. This stuff isn’t an accident for them, it’s a strategy. If people die along the way, it’s apparently perfectly acceptable losses if it means keeping power. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/94 "2018-10-29T19:29:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Every time I hear someone say “If only someone with a gun had been there…” what I hear in my head is “If only _I_ been there with a gun I would have been a fuckin’ _hero!_”. > Is it only me? Nope. I hear the same thing too. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/95 "2018-10-29T19:33:04Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Nope. I hear the same thing too. Yep. They all seem to image they have nerves of steel and dead-shot aim. ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/96 "2018-10-29T19:41:13Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > Every time I hear someone say “If only someone with a gun had been there…” what I hear in my head is “If only _I_ been there with a gun I would have been a fuckin’ _hero!_”. > > Is it only me? > > Nope. I hear the same thing too. Every time I hear this sort of thing I’m reminded of some of the responses to the [Long Island Railroad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Long_Island_Rail_Road_shooting) shooting (that if everyone on the train had been armed the incident would never have happened: at the first false move everyone would have drawn, taken aim, and blown Ferguson away). Human nature being what it is, I have a strong suspicion that if that had been the case the result would have been something like [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjqIJW_Qr3c), resulting in a railroad car full of dead & wounded. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/97 "2018-10-29T21:29:22Z")
> [@OttoDaFe](#): > > Every time I hear this sort of thing I’m reminded of some of the responses to the [Long Island Railroad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Long_Island_Rail_Road_shooting) shooting (that if everyone on the train had been armed the incident would never have happened: at the first false move everyone would have drawn, taken aim, and blown Ferguson away). > > Human nature being what it is, I have a strong suspicion that if that had been the case the result would have been something like [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjqIJW_Qr3c), resulting in a railroad car full of dead & wounded. Me too! Look, I’ve never held or owned a gun. I have great aim, at video games and some archery, and I might have great aim with a gun. But I’m also a klutz with things that explode. 😃 Even if I get a gun, have the police teach me how to use, clean and store it, so what? I’m most likely the person to either drop it and shoot himself or even shoot the wrong person or even keep firing entirely because I’m scared. Some people are good with them, I am sure that I’m not. Not willing to try it either. So when I hear “an armed person” could’ve taken care of something like this, I think it wouldn’t have been me! I’d be down the street like lightning yelling for help. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/98 "2018-10-29T21:55:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Every time I hear someone say “If only someone with a gun had been there…” what I hear in my head is “If only _I_ been there with a gun I would have been a fuckin’ _hero!_”. > Is it only me? Nope, that’s exactly what I hear too. And the less actually capable the someone is, the more fervently they see themselves as The Hero. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/99 "2018-10-29T23:04:50Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > On the idea that we’re headed into a period of increasing violent attacks on everyone who fails to be a white Christian heterosexual male: if so, it’s not “the forces of history” causing the increase. It’s Donald Fucking Trump. > > He’s made it ‘okay.’ He’s given it the green light. > > I’m sure we all remember all the outrage over Muslim imams radicalizing Muslim terrorists. I’m sure we all remember the calls to hold them responsible for the terrorist acts committed by their followers. > > Well, former Republican strategist Steve Schmidt said yesterday, about the pipe-bomber, that Donald Trump is radicalizing white males. Schmidt got it exactly right. > > Donald Trump needs to be held responsible for his radicalizing activities. > [https://twitter.com/SteveSchmidtSES/status/1055878997802856448](https://twitter.com/SteveSchmidtSES/status/1055878997802856448) > [@cmkeller](#): > > Sherrerd: > Right. And when Dylan Roof did the same thing (albeit to African-Americans rather than to Jews) Donald Trump was where, exactly? > > Violent racists with guns are not a Trump phenomenon. If I’d posted “there have never been attacks by violent racists with guns until Trump became President” then you might have an argument. But I didn’t post that. I posted that Trump is radicalizing people. (Specifically, aggrieved white-supremacists and their ilk.) As indeed he is. This assertion contains no implication that violence was unknown to humankind before January 20, 2017. Not one such implication. As I said, Trump has made violence against certain individuals and groups ‘okay’ and has given it the green light. This is from back in February and the numbers will only have increased: > [@](#): > > _ **Antisemitic incidents in US soar to highest level in two decades** _ > Antisemitic incidents in the US surged 57% in 2017, the Anti-Defamation League on Tuesday, the largest year-on-year increase since the Jewish civil rights group began collecting data in 1979. … > **[Antisemitic incidents in US soar to highest level in two decades](https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/27/antisemitism-us-rises-anti-defamation-league)** > > Largest year-on-year increase since 1979 comes as Trump administration is accused of failing to condemn bigotry This is from June: > [@](#): > > … The report shows that racially-motivated crimes comprise nearly 60 percent of overall crimes, and African Americans remain the most targeted group. Overall “Anti-Black, anti-Semitic, anti-gay and anti-Latino were the most common type of hate crimes,” said the study authors. …While the data showed a 12 percent rise in hate crimes over 2016 in 38 of our nation’s largest cities, the failure of at least 90 of the largest cities to report any hate crimes, particularly those against the disabled community, indicates the numbers may actually be higher. … [https://www.naacp.org/latest/naacp-sees-continued-rise-hate-crimes-legacy-trumps-racism/](https://www.naacp.org/latest/naacp-sees-continued-rise-hate-crimes-legacy-trumps-racism/) Increases in hate crimes can’t be tied to Trump’s rhetoric with absolute, undeniable proof, because there are human beings we’re talking about–not mathematical symbols. But it would be foolish to ignore the evidence right in front of our eyes. So, where was Trump in the lead-up to Dylann Roof’s crime? Well, for one thing, Trump was taking out a full-page ad in the New York Daily News—no inexpensive proposition—to call for the state to execute five black teens who’d been accused of a rape. The teens were fully exonerated by DNA evidence. They were innocent. But Trump has never apologized for calling for their deaths. So that’s the sort of thing Trump was doing. What sort of message would a white supremacist like Dylann Roof take from that, do you think? ‘Kill them even if they’re innocent,’ maybe? (Thanks, GIGObuster, for your excellent response to the same cmkeller post.) ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/100 "2018-10-29T23:12:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Every time I hear someone say “If only someone with a gun had been there…” what I hear in my head is “If only _I_ been there with a gun I would have been a fuckin’ _hero!_”. > Is it only me? Nope, I feel the same way. And this extends to the people who brag about how they “carry” in places where it’s probably not warranted, necessary, or even legal. You just know that some of those ammosexuals are just salivating at the idea of offing a “bad guy with a gun”, especially if that bad guy is not white and/or Christian or Jewish. :mad: I just heard on NBC News that Fred Rogers lived just a few blocks from that synagogue for many years. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600.md?page=6)