# Synagogue shooting in Pittsburgh, 2018 October 27 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 27, 2018, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600 "2018-10-27T19:57:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/121 "2018-10-30T12:45:30Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Not a single person in the current administration has a clue. Every time they’re given a chance to show their humanity, they show their incredible lack thereof. Spot on, except that I think Pence knew exactly what he was doing by selecting a Messianic Jew. That action is very consistent with his character. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/122 "2018-10-30T12:55:24Z")
Interesting: the [address](https://www.shema.com/about/) for Congregation Shema Yisrael is also the address for Bloomfield Hills Baptist Church. And the Google Maps street view for that address shows a building that’s clearly a church, with very standard church architecture. Doesn’t look like any synagogue I’ve ever seen. A bullshit ‘rabbi’ in a bullshit ‘synagogue.’ ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/123 "2018-10-30T12:56:15Z")
> [@WolfpackJeep](#): > > Spot on, except that I think Pence knew exactly what he was doing by selecting a Messianic Jew. That action is very consistent with his character. Pence believes that anyone can be a straight white Christian if they only try hard enough. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/124 "2018-10-30T13:34:10Z")
> [@WolfpackJeep](#): > > Spot on, except that I think Pence knew exactly what he was doing by selecting a Messianic Jew. That action is very consistent with his character. Absolutely, is this even in doubt? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/125 "2018-10-30T13:39:15Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > And from the Jewish POV, of course, this targeting has been going on for most of the lifetime of the Christian faith, including such notable examples as the Spanish Inquisition. The Castilian Inquisition wasn’t trying to convert anybody. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/126 "2018-10-30T13:53:36Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Interesting: the [address](https://www.shema.com/about/) for Congregation Shema Yisrael is also the address for Bloomfield Hills Baptist Church. And the Google Maps street view for that address shows a building that’s clearly a church, with very standard church architecture. Doesn’t look like any synagogue I’ve ever seen. > > A bullshit ‘rabbi’ in a bullshit ‘synagogue.’ The Messianic Jewish movement was born in the Baptist church. It started as a way of reaching out to Jewish college students away from home possibly for the first time and old people who felt neglected. The movement welcomed them into Christianity with symbols and trappings that were familiar to them. And friendship and caring, too-- as someone said, Christians sincerely believe they have something wonderful that they must share. I took a workshop on the Messianic phenomenon years ago. > [@Nava](#): > > (cont) > I can tell you that dismissing their fears is not it. You begin by recognizing those fears; by accepting that the fear is valid. While the issue may not look so scary to us, it is scary to that person. “Stop crying” has never gotten anybody to stop crying; “don’t get mad” has never calmed down someone who was already mad. Recognize the fears, then help them work through the fears; help them find solutions which work for them. That’s on the individual level. On the mass level, maybe it’s time to recognize that there is a difference between “people can say anything they want” and “any amount of stupidity must be reported as if it was a gem of wisdom or at least could be”. Now, I only work with people’s fears at the individual level; I’ve got neither training nor experience in working at the mass level. But there are those on the side of good who do, and if any of those reads this, I am telling you: get your head out of your arse! Figure out how to reach those scared people and counteract the flame-fanning, damnit, it’s your calling and your job! BRILLIANT POST! ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/127 "2018-10-30T14:25:00Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > The Castilian Inquisition wasn’t trying to convert anybody. I didn’t expect that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/128 "2018-10-30T14:35:09Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > The Messianic Jewish movement was born in the Baptist church. It started as a way of reaching out to Jewish college students away from home possibly for the first time and old people who felt neglected. The movement welcomed them into Christianity with symbols and trappings that were familiar to them. And friendship and caring, too-- as someone said, Christians sincerely believe they have something wonderful that they must share. I took a workshop on the Messianic phenomenon years ago. A fake rabbi is still a fake rabbi. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/129 "2018-10-30T14:46:38Z")
Fake Jews? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/130 "2018-10-30T14:50:50Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Fake Jews? A “rabbi” [that operates out of a Baptist church.](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/prayer-by-christian-rabbi-at-pence-event-provokes-backlash/ar-BBP5MpY?li=BBnbfcL) ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/131 "2018-10-30T14:51:22Z")
Can someone fight mine ignorance on what it means to be a rabbi? For comparison, the only qualification to be a Christian minister is to be hired by a Christian church, which is simply an organized group of self-proclaimed Christians. Of course, some Christians require more qualifications, but that doesn’t contradict that some don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/132 "2018-10-30T15:02:17Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Can someone fight mine ignorance on what it means to be a rabbi? [_Smicha_ or rabbinical ordination](https://hds.harvard.edu/academics/ministry-studies/denominational-instruction/ordination-requirements/jewish-ordination) > [@](#): > > In the Jewish tradition, one becomes a rabbi after receiving “smicha,” or ordination, from the rabbinical seminaries of the different movements of American Judaism (Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, Orthodox), from an independent rabbinical school, or privately from an individual rabbi. > > This is a process that usually involves a five to six year period of study and community work. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/133 "2018-10-30T15:02:19Z")
[Different ways to become a rabbi.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbi#Ordination) No mention of “Baptist” that I can see. Also, [_How do I become ordained as a rabbi?_](https://getordained.org/blog/how-do-i-become-ordained-as-a-rabbi) ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/134 "2018-10-30T15:12:26Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Can someone fight mine ignorance on what it means to be a rabbi? > > For comparison, the only qualification to be a Christian minister is to be hired by a Christian church, which is simply an organized group of self-proclaimed Christians. Of course, some Christians require more qualifications, but that doesn’t contradict that some don’t. From Wikipedia: Ordination in a mainstream Yeshiva or Rabbinical School requires seven or eight years of education past high school: the first four in undergraduate studies leading to a Bachelor of Talmudic Law and then three or four years of seminary or rabbinical school > **[Master of Rabbinic Studies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_Rabbinic_Studies)** > > The Master of Rabbinic Studies (MRb) is a graduate degree granted by a Yeshiva or rabbinical school. It involves the academic study of Talmud, Jewish law, philosophy, ethics, and rabbinic literature; > see Yeshiva § Curriculum. > The Master of Talmudic Law is closely related. > In many institutions, this degree is a standard component in the study for semicha (rabbinic ordination). > At accredited institutions this degree requires between 72 and 90 credit hours of study; 72 being the minimum determine... ---
**Author:** ![yanceylebeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yanceylebeef/32/12290_2.png) [@yanceylebeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yanceylebeef)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/135 "2018-10-30T15:21:26Z")
Fake Jews! ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/136 "2018-10-30T15:23:20Z")
Thanks for the answers. This rapidly becomes a chicken-and-egg problem, but what qualifies as a rabbinical seminary? Eventually, what do you call a person a group of Jewish people hire to teach them the Torah, even if they have no official “ordination”? I’m not complaining about calling out fake rabbis, but I want to better grasp what the lexical boundaries are. I’ll note that one of the churches I go to (not to attend services, but a non-profit meets there), shares the space with a synagogue. The cross is covered over when used as such. I imagine this is common in high-rent areas where small religious groups can’t afford their own space. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/137 "2018-10-30T15:27:00Z")
From the official website of “Rabbi” Loren(the Pence’s guest speaker)-His rabbinical training: > [@](#): > > Rabbi Loren was raised in a Jewish home in the Chicago area and became a Messianic Jew in 1975. He graduated from Moody Bible Institute’s Jewish Studies program in 1979 and received a Bachelor degree in Biblical Literature from Northeastern Bible College in New Jersey in 1986. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/138 "2018-10-30T15:34:10Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Thanks for the answers. This rapidly becomes a chicken-and-egg problem, but what qualifies as a rabbinical seminary? Eventually, what do you call a person a group of Jewish people hire to teach them the Torah, even if they have no official “ordination”? > > I’m not complaining about calling out fake rabbis, but I want to better grasp what the lexical boundaries are. > > I’ll note that one of the churches I go to (not to attend services, but a non-profit meets there), shares the space with a synagogue. The cross is covered over when used as such. I imagine this is common in high-rent areas where small religious groups can’t afford their own space. It sounds like you’re working towards saying a Baptist college is equally qualified to educate and certify a rabbi as a Yeshiva. Please tell me you’re not going there. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/139 "2018-10-30T15:52:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > From the official website of “Rabbi” Loren(the Pence’s guest speaker)-His rabbinical training: His compatriot at his church, “Rabbi” Glen, does not fare much better when it comes to rabbinical studies: He’s got a Master of Divinity degree from Moody Bible Institute. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/140 "2018-10-30T15:55:08Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > It sounds like you’re working towards saying a Baptist college is equally qualified to educate and certify a rabbi as a Yeshiva. Please tell me you’re not going there. I’m not going there. I’m only familiar with Christianity. While some groups of Christians have rigorous standards to be ordained, there are self-proclaimed “Bible” churches that are just some hick who’s gathered a few families to listen to his weekly rants. It rankles me, but that man can call himself a “minister”. But they have no standing in any denomination. Is Judaism as loosely organized as Christianity? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600.md?page=8)