# Synagogue shooting in Pittsburgh, 2018 October 27 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 27, 2018, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600 "2018-10-27T19:57:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/141 "2018-10-30T16:00:59Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > I’m not going there. > > I’m only familiar with Christianity. While some groups of Christians have rigorous standards to be ordained, there are self-proclaimed “Bible” churches that are just some hick who’s gathered a few families to listen to his weekly rants. It rankles me, but that man can call himself a “minister”. But they have no standing in any denomination. > > Is Judaism as loosely organized as Christianity? OK, sorry I got my hackles up. I can’t speak for every branch and sect of Judaism, but I know the Reform movement has extremely rigorous standards for ordinations as a rabbi or cantor. My sister has two bachelor’s degrees and two masters’, and she’s “just” an educator! ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/142 "2018-10-30T16:02:43Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > The Messianic Jewish movement was born in the Baptist church. It started as a way of reaching out to Jewish college students away from home possibly for the first time and old people who felt neglected. The movement welcomed them into Christianity with symbols and trappings that were familiar to them. And friendship and caring, too-- as someone said, Christians sincerely believe they have something wonderful that they must share. I took a workshop on the Messianic phenomenon years ago. > … > [@Czarcasm](#): > > A fake rabbi is still a fake rabbi. The guy is definitely a fake rabbi. Did it seem to you that I said otherwise? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/143 "2018-10-30T16:05:31Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > I’m not going there. > > I’m only familiar with Christianity. While some groups of Christians have rigorous standards to be ordained, there are self-proclaimed “Bible” churches that are just some hick who’s gathered a few families to listen to his weekly rants. It rankles me, but that man can call himself a “minister”. But they have no standing in any denomination. > > Is Judaism as loosely organized as Christianity? Have you checked out any of the links provided? ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/144 "2018-10-30T16:42:44Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Thanks for the answers. This rapidly becomes a chicken-and-egg problem, but what qualifies as a rabbinical seminary? Eventually, what do you call a person a group of Jewish people hire to teach them the Torah, even if they have no official “ordination”? > > I’m not complaining about calling out fake rabbis, but I want to better grasp what the lexical boundaries are. This is a bigger question than you probably realize. I’m actually going through the process of hiring a Rabbi for my shul right now and… There are rules. The problem is, that depending on the movement of Judaism you belong to (not sect, it’s all jewish) the rules are different and some movements don’t recognize any others as legitimate (see many ultra orthodox movements). The question of “who is a jew” is a fundamental one because Judaism is not a religion of faith it’s a religion of belonging. You can be a perfectly good jew without faith as long as you follow the law, so Jews become very preoccupied (sometimes) with who is and who isn’t a jew. This is why Netanyahu dismissing American Jews as largely illegitimate recently caused outrage. Typically you need to have gone to seminary to become a rabbi and you get a masters in Rabbinic Studies, at least for my movement it’s a 5 year degree which requires a year of study in Israel and an externship in a synagogue or Chaplancy. Other movements have other requirements. But there are a ton of rules within each movement. You don’t just get to say “hey I’m a Rabbi.” Other Rabbis generally have to have given you the ok after sufficient training. Anyone else is still considered a layman regardless of knowledge. Often many synagogues have a number of very learned lay leaders who are nonetheless not Rabbis. ---
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/145 "2018-10-30T17:34:20Z")
> [@WolfpackJeep](#): > > Spot on, except that I think Pence knew exactly what he was doing by selecting a Messianic Jew. That action is very consistent with his character. Yeah, I’m betting that you’re right about that. ---
**Author:** ![Batano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b487fb/32.png) [@Batano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batano)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/146 "2018-10-30T18:07:35Z")
It was very short notice, did you expect Pence to just pull a rabbi out of his hat? ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/147 "2018-10-30T18:12:57Z")
> [@Batano](#): > > It was very short notice, did you expect Pence to just pull a rabbi out of his hat? You’ve been waiting all thread to tee that one up, haven’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/148 "2018-10-30T18:44:41Z")
Thank you, **NAF1138** , that pretty much answered all my questions. Judaism is more organized than Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/149 "2018-10-30T20:27:15Z")
I think it’s more that there are far more cultural Christians than Jews, so there are more visible fly-by-night “Christian” operations. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/150 "2018-10-30T20:29:06Z")
And that Judaism has less branches than Christianity, and no teeny-weeny little offshoots. All the Christian churches which are bigger than a lemonade stand require several years’ training before you can get hired as a pastor or assigned a parish. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/151 "2018-10-30T21:04:21Z")
Opinions may vary as to whether or not they qualify as sects, offshoots, or legitimate branches, but there are real versions of Judaism such as Sadducees and Karaites that do not recognize the authority of Rabbis. (I guess that goes double for fake rabbis.) ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/152 "2018-10-30T21:29:29Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > We need to get specific. If bombings increase 10 times… that’s not a mob. It should be addressed via law enforcement. Ditto for 100 times. > > In Charlottesville, we had a mob. And the antifa _squared off_ against them. They didn’t just “Jump in”. Jumping into a mob is a terrible idea as you give your back to your enemy. Again, don’t do this crap without training. Wasn’t actually planning on it. Just responding to Snowboarder Bo that, no, I’m not prepared for his scenario, and don’t think I can be. > [@](#): > > Charlottesville did grievous damage to the alt-right. More video coverage of it would have been even better. Some of the alt-right perps were caught. But not all. [This guy](https://twitter.com/shaunking/status/1023216136811421696) is still at large. Those with camera skills should be encouraged to use them. _That_ is where we are I say. Cameras can be useful to shame people. Problem is is that there are those who cannot be shamed. By camera skills, I assume you mean knowing how to properly hold a camera to create a horizontal picture, rather than a vertical? > [@](#): > > Straight White Male. Having viewed at least one riot, actually you can tell where things are going. I did mean in general, not just for that particular event. > [@](#): > > As for the nation, it is trending in an authoritarian direction, based upon other country’s experience with the same. But we need to be clear eyed about this; we need to see things how they are, as opposed to what we fear on the one hand or hope on the other. I believe it is appropriate to have these sorts of discussions now. We are not near authoritarian rule and [on November 6th we need to keep it that way](https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/the-stakes-are-dire). Yep, next week is a pivotal moment. Let’s be a “mob” and vote! > [@](#): > > If you are buying a gun with the intent of using it to intervene on behalf of a third party, methinks you risk a prison sentence if you use it in that fashion without training. No, that would not be the intent of buying a gun. I am just saying that I would not buy a gun unless I actually felt that there was a good chance that I would have to use it. For instance, I have a first aid kit in my car (and in my house, my place of business, and with my camping gear). I got it because I thought I would need it often. It hasn’t come in as useful as I thought it would, but it has been _very_ useful on 2 occasions. > [@Nava](#): > > (cont) > I can tell you that dismissing their fears is not it. You begin by recognizing those fears; by accepting that the fear is valid. While the issue may not look so scary to us, it is scary to that person. “Stop crying” has never gotten anybody to stop crying; “don’t get mad” has never calmed down someone who was already mad. Recognize the fears, then help them work through the fears; help them find solutions which work for them. That’s on the individual level. On the mass level, maybe it’s time to recognize that there is a difference between “people can say anything they want” and “any amount of stupidity must be reported as if it was a gem of wisdom or at least could be”. Now, I only work with people’s fears at the individual level; I’ve got neither training nor experience in working at the mass level. But there are those on the side of good who do, and if any of those reads this, I am telling you: get your head out of your arse! Figure out how to reach those scared people and counteract the flame-fanning, damnit, it’s your calling and your job! We’ve tried that. There really needs to be some sort of two way communication on that however. If I express a fear that there will be a mass shooting at a school, then I am a snowflake. If a black person expresses a fear that he may be mistreated or even killed by law enforcement, he is over reacting, and it’s just the media’s fault. But they are afraid of nebulous concepts that just don’t happen. They are afraid of the violence that immigration brings, when immigrants are less violent. They are afraid of the cost that immigration brings, when it is a net positive for the economy. They are afraid of shadows, and have come to the conclusion that since shadows are formed by light, turning off the lights will assuage their fears. The only thing that scares them more than things that they don’t understand is learning about the things that they do not understand. > [@Nava](#): > > And that Judaism has less branches than Christianity, and no teeny-weeny little offshoots. All the Christian churches which are bigger than a lemonade stand require several years’ training before you can get hired as a pastor or assigned a parish. I think that comes to economics. There is no reason why you couldn’t have a massive megachurch without any training or affiliations, but it is unlikely. If you want to get a loan from a bank, then the bank is going to want some backing. Being a part of a larger church hierarchy is useful for that. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/153 "2018-10-30T22:15:31Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > The Messianic Jewish movement was born in the Baptist church. It started as a way of reaching out to Jewish college students away from home possibly for the first time and old people who felt neglected. The movement welcomed them into Christianity with symbols and trappings that were familiar to them. And friendship and caring, too-- as someone said, Christians sincerely believe they have something wonderful that they must share. I took a workshop on the Messianic phenomenon years ago. You’ve got a few years on me, IIRC, so I’m not saying it wasn’t so at some time. But the whole Jews for Jesus/messianic Jews/completed Jews thing has been around for essentially the entire time since I found the Lord 48 years ago, and I’ve never seen that side of it. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/154 "2018-10-30T22:22:06Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Opinions may vary as to whether or not they qualify as sects, offshoots, or legitimate branches, but there are real versions of Judaism such as Sadducees and Karaites that do not recognize the authority of Rabbis. (I guess that goes double for fake rabbis.) Yeah. And I would say those are absolutely a different sect of Judaism. Referring to reform/conservative/orthadox etc as different sects isn’t really accurate. It’s more like a different interpretation of the same sect. It’s all rabbinic Judaism. Typically Rabbinic Ashkenazi Judaism. They are just different movements within that sect. Which is why, in America, Judaism feels a lot more unified tha than Christianity. All of this is super off topic, but interesting I think. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/155 "2018-10-31T00:17:05Z")
And just as the cherry on top, the Messianic Jew bogus rabbi believes the 11 Jews killed on Saturday [will spend eternity in Hell](https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/loren-jacobs-christian-rabbi-messianic-jews-mike-pence_us_5bd89b52e4b07427610c1e57?ncid=engmodushpmg00000004). Because of course he does. If the point was to show solidarity with the Jewish community in the wake of Saturday’s massacre, I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say they coulda done a wee bit better job of it. Like by disappearing from public view for a few weeks. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/156 "2018-10-31T01:04:04Z")
A good start towards a life of meditation and repentance. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/157 "2018-10-31T03:22:45Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Looks to me like it’s iffy as to whether he saved anything or anybody. The shooter had already exited the church where he shot all those people before the ‘good guy with a gun’ even showed up. So he didn’t save any lives within the church. Whether the shooter would have tried to harm anyone as he tried to escape the vicinity is completely a matter of conjecture. > Then I’m puzzled as to why you didn’t pick a more clear for-instance. Yes, as you and JohnT point out, Quartz has failed to come up with an actual “good guy with a gun” example. I’m sure we’re all willing to wait for Quartz to manage to do that. (Patience is a virtue!) ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/158 "2018-10-31T04:44:45Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Cameras can be useful to shame people. Problem is is that there are those who cannot be shamed. > > By camera skills, I assume you mean knowing how to properly hold a camera to create a horizontal picture, rather than a vertical? Heh: well that would certainly help! Cameras can be used to identify criminals engaging in criminal activity in public. Shaun King tracked down [these 2 white supremacist assaulters](https://twitter.com/shaunking/status/1032748902481649666) for example. [News article](https://www.whsv.com/content/news/Goodwin-sentenced-to-8-years-in-prison-for-beating-of-DeAndre-Harris-491576171.html). I was wondering whether higher tech video cameras and microphones could help identify a wider range of potential white nationalist defendants, ones who use or [advocate violence](https://twitter.com/shaunking/status/1056217128209125377). I had in mind racist set pieces like Charlottesville. If it’s just an incident you come across, that doesn’t apply. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/159 "2018-10-31T05:06:44Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > And just as the cherry on top, the Messianic Jew bogus rabbi believes the 11 Jews killed on Saturday [will spend eternity in Hell](https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/loren-jacobs-christian-rabbi-messianic-jews-mike-pence_us_5bd89b52e4b07427610c1e57?ncid=engmodushpmg00000004). Because of course he does. Bogus rabbi was defrocked by [del]Baptist Christian front group[/del] the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations in 2003, after they found him guilty of libel. Apparently bogus rabbi was shocked to learn that one of his fellow fake rabbis didn’t think that Genesis 1-11 was necessarily based on real historical events. [Jews assail 'Christian rabbi' who appeared with Pence, and so does his own movement](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/jews-assail-so-called-christian-rabbi-who-appeared-pence-so-n926406?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma) Twitter: [INDENT] STAGE 1: Rabbi not actually Jewish STAGE 2: Rabbi not actually a rabbi STAGE 3: Rabbi actually Sacha Baron Cohen [/INDENT] [https://twitter.com/Yair\_Rosenberg/status/1057467689411792896](https://twitter.com/Yair_Rosenberg/status/1057467689411792896) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600/160 "2018-10-31T05:19:07Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I think that comes to economics. There is no reason why you couldn’t have a massive megachurch without any training or affiliations, but it is unlikely. If you want to get a loan from a bank, then the bank is going to want some backing. Being a part of a larger church hierarchy is useful for that. … someone should tell you that while economics in the widest sense of the word has a lot to do with Church structures, banks are a lot more recent than seminaries… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/synagogue-shooting-in-pittsburgh-2018-october-27/823600.md?page=9)