# Syria: Is there any way this can end well? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 6, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-is-there-any-way-this-can-end-well/611919 "2012-02-06T01:51:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-is-there-any-way-this-can-end-well/611919/141 "2014-06-29T19:37:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Who do you think is helping them? Keep in mind that ISIL was originally a Sunni insurgent group in Iraq. If you believe [Josh Rogin](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/14/america-s-allies-are-funding-isis.html), they got a lot of funding from rich folk in the Gulf States. And they governments supposedly are looking the other way partly because they are upset at Obama not bombing Syria after the famous red line was crossed: > [@](#): > > When confronted with the problem, Gulf leaders often justify allowing their Salafi constituents to fund Syrian extremist groups by pointing back to what they see as a failed U.S. policy in Syria and a loss of credibility after President Obama reneged on his pledge to strike Assad after the regime used chemical weapons. > > That’s what Prince Bandar bin Sultan, head of Saudi intelligence since 2012 and former Saudi ambassador in Washington, reportedly told Secretary of State John Kerry when Kerry pressed him on Saudi financing of extremist groups earlier this year. > > \ > > There is increasing evidence that Assad is working with ISIS to squash the Free Syrian Army. I’ve heard that last claim from other sources, too. Not sure what to believe these days, but there is a certain logic to it. As long as Assad is fighting radical Islamists instead of secular rebels, then he makes Obamas claim that “Assad must go” less of a reality. But ISIL also robs banks-- they allegedly got something like $400M from the bank in Mosul. And they run extortion rackets in the territories they control. They’re like the Muslim Mafia, only with actual control over large areas of actual countries. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-is-there-any-way-this-can-end-well/611919/142 "2014-06-29T19:41:18Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I’ve seen ISIS to be the most common reference in the news media. You know who Im talking about so what’s the bother. If I called them the Honey Bears they would be just as nightmarish. > > In all for Putin and Rouhani getting involved by the way to resolve the conventional weapons fighting in Syria and Iraq in similar fashion to Putin’s involvement with Obama and OPCW to rid the war zone of CW. in other words does not have to be one or the other to destroy ISIS. Obama and Putin should work together just as they did on CW. > > I tend to favor the UN authorizing a 20 mile wide NFZ on the Syria Iraq border. I’m not sure why that has not been discussed unless I have missed it somehow. > > If a stolen US built Humvee tries crossing that zone - light it up no matter who’s in it. “Putin and Rouhani”? That’s a fairly odd juxtaposition since Rouhani isn’t the leader of Iran. You might as well say “Putin and Boehner”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-is-there-any-way-this-can-end-well/611919/143 "2014-06-29T20:37:29Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > “Putin and Rouhani”? > That’s a fairly odd juxtaposition since Rouhani isn’t the leader of Iran. You might as well say “Putin and Boehner”. It’s pretty common for people to not realize that Iran’s president has little, if any, influence over foreign policy. There isn’t a good analog to Rouhani in most Western governments, I don’t think. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-is-there-any-way-this-can-end-well/611919/144 "2014-06-29T20:57:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s pretty common for people to not realize that Iran’s president has little, if any, influence over foreign policy. There isn’t a good analog to Rouhani in most Western governments, I don’t think. I suppose you could compare him to the President of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Nema98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d2c977/32.png) [@Nema98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nema98)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-is-there-any-way-this-can-end-well/611919/145 "2014-06-29T21:40:39Z")
> [@BeaMyra](#): > > Improvement? That depends on who you are. If you’re a Sunni Muslim, yes, maybe or maybe not if you’re another group. Also Syria is a stabilizing influence in Lebanon too. Decades of political assassinations by both Hafez and Bashar Assad really benefited Lebanon. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-is-there-any-way-this-can-end-well/611919/146 "2014-06-29T21:47:15Z")
> [@Nema98](#): > > Decades of political assassinations by both Hafez and Bashar Assad really benefited Lebanon. You’re responding to someone banned two years ago. You’re correct though that his claim is jaw-droppingly stupid. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-is-there-any-way-this-can-end-well/611919/147 "2014-06-29T22:02:37Z")
Petty petty petty: Iranian President Rouhani says country is ready to help Iraq … [www.foxnews.com/...president-rouhani...to-help-iraq-if-asked](http://www.foxnews.com/...president-rouhani...to-help-iraq-if-asked) … State of Iraq and the Levant, ( ISIS … with Iraq since the 2003 U.S.-led invasion … Rouhani said. … ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-is-there-any-way-this-can-end-well/611919/148 "2014-06-29T23:59:21Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I suppose you could compare him to the President of Israel. On matters of the military and foreign policy, he’s more like the press secretary. As some of us know, the Supreme Leader is the Commander-in-Chief of the military, and makes foreign policy decisions. If Iran sends aid to Iraq, it will be Khamenei’s decision to do so. Rouhani can mouth the policy, but he doesn’t make the policy. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-is-there-any-way-this-can-end-well/611919/149 "2014-06-30T01:48:38Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > “Putin and Rouhani”? > That’s a fairly odd juxtaposition since Rouhani isn’t the leader of Iran. You might as well say “Putin and Boehner”. I was referring to ‘elected’ leaders of both countries: [Profile: Hassan Rouhani, President of Iran - BBC News](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22886729) Profile of Hassan Fereydoon Rouhani, who was elected president of Iran in June 2013. So Boehner was a pitiful choice for a snark attempt. Boehner was elected by one congressional district in Ohio. Mace has made anither gross error. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-is-there-any-way-this-can-end-well/611919/150 "2014-06-30T02:04:37Z")
Post 149 it was IBN that made the original error. It was not Mace. Just posting the correction. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-is-there-any-way-this-can-end-well/611919/151 "2014-06-30T02:07:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > On matters of the military and foreign policy, he’s more like the press secretary. As some of us know, the Supreme Leader is the Commander-in-Chief of the military, and makes foreign policy decisions. If Iran sends aid to Iraq, it will be Khamenei’s decision to do so. Rouhani can mouth the policy, but he doesn’t make the policy. I was referring to elected leaders. As some of us know both Putin and Rouhani were elected. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-is-there-any-way-this-can-end-well/611919/152 "2014-06-30T02:19:51Z")
I should have added that Iran does not have an elected leader. Rouhani is the president, but he’s not the leader of the country. Khamenei is the leader. There’s a hint about that in his title: “Leader”. He’s often referred to as The Supreme Leader, but if you look in the Iranian constitution, he’s just called “Leader”. There is a fiction that the Leader is indirectly elected, since he is chosen by an elected body, the Council of Experts. But the Leader and the unelected Guardian Council decide who can stand for election and can dismiss anyone on the Council of Experts. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-is-there-any-way-this-can-end-well/611919/153 "2014-06-30T03:40:21Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Post 149 it was IBN that made the original error. It was not Mace. Just posting the correction. What “error” did I make? You made an extremely stupid post which suggested that your knowledge of Iran was less than ideal. > [@](#): > > I was referring to ‘elected’ leaders of both countries: Rouhani is not the “leader” of Iran. Iran’s “leader” or “Imam” or “Rahbar” if you prefer is Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. Rouhani is at best the the third or fourth most influential politician in Iran, hence my reference to Boehner, though in retrospect that was a terrible comparison because Boehner can and does thwart the will of Obama, Rouhani can’t do that to Khamenei. In theory the Assembly of Experts can countermand an order by the Supreme Leader, or Supreme Guide(depending on your translation) but in over thirty years of existence they haven’t done so once. Anyway NFBW, I suggest you learn a bit more about Iran before making such pronouncements in the future and then doubling down on them. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-is-there-any-way-this-can-end-well/611919/154 "2014-06-30T04:24:00Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > What “error” did I make? > > You made an extremely stupid post which suggested that your knowledge of Iran was less than ideal. > > Rouhani is not the “leader” of Iran. > > Iran’s “leader” or “Imam” or “Rahbar” if you prefer is Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. > > Rouhani is at best the the third or fourth most influential politician in Iran, hence my reference to Boehner, though in retrospect that was a terrible comparison because Boehner can and does thwart the will of Obama, Rouhani can’t do that to Khamenei. > > In theory the Assembly of Experts can countermand an order by the Supreme Leader, or Supreme Guide(depending on your translation) but in over thirty years of existence they haven’t done so once. > > Anyway NFBW, I suggest you learn a bit more about Iran before making such pronouncements in the future and then doubling down on them. I didn’t claim he was the leader. I referred to two elected leaders one in Russia one in Iran. Rouhani is the highest elected leader in Iran. I thought one as smart you would know that. I guess I should have expected your petty nitpicking but I didn’t. Now if you have a point against the substance of what I wrote, can we see it or is nitpicking over ‘leader’ as far as you can go? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-is-there-any-way-this-can-end-well/611919/155 "2014-06-30T04:27:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I should have added that Iran does not have an elected leader. Rouhani is the president, but he’s not the leader of the country. Khamenei is the leader. There’s a hint about that in his title: “Leader”. He’s often referred to as The Supreme Leader, but if you look in the Iranian constitution, he’s just called “Leader”. > > There is a fiction that the Leader is indirectly elected, since he is chosen by an elected body, the Council of Experts. But the Leader and the unelected Guardian Council decide who can stand for election and can dismiss anyone on the Council of Experts. Do you have an argument that Rouhani was not elected by the people of Iran? If not admit your error. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-is-there-any-way-this-can-end-well/611919/156 "2014-06-30T04:34:58Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I was referring to ‘elected’ leaders of both countries > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I didn’t claim he was the leader. So, Rouhani is the leader of Iran and at the same time not the leader. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-is-there-any-way-this-can-end-well/611919/157 "2014-06-30T05:05:21Z")
I’ll take the BBC over Message Board nitpicking any day. > [@](#): > > Later that month, Mr Rouhani and US President Barack Obama became the first leaders of their countries to speak to each other since 1979. In a telephone conversation, they agreed to accelerate efforts to find a comprehensive solution to the nuclear crisis. [http://m.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-22886729](http://m.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-22886729) ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-is-there-any-way-this-can-end-well/611919/158 "2014-06-30T05:11:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, Rouhani is the leader of Iran and at the same time not the leader. Got it. No. You snipped two full sentences from my reply to Ibn. Here they are: "I didn’t claim he was the leader. I referred to two elected leaders one in Russia one in Iran. Rouhani is the highest elected leader in Iran. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-is-there-any-way-this-can-end-well/611919/159 "2014-06-30T05:12:54Z")
I thought you “didn’t claim he was the leader.” At any rate, the BBC is in error. That’s sloppy reporting, especially since they also say, in that very article: > [@](#): > > Iran’s supreme leader repeatedly expressed his dissatisfaction with what he regarded as Iran’s conciliatory approach during those negotiations. Emphasis added. They are not talking about Rouhani there. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-is-there-any-way-this-can-end-well/611919/160 "2014-06-30T05:31:09Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I thought you “didn’t claim he was the leader.” > > At any rate, the BBC is in error. That’s sloppy reporting, especially since they also say, in that very article: > > Emphasis added. They are not talking about Rouhani there. You thought wrong because you did not read my full thought. Go back and read your cite. Its sloppy reading not sloppy reporting. And you were so smart until I brought you the reality that BBC and probably every news agency would refer to Rouhani as the leader of Iran as they did right here; > [@](#): > > After succeeding Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as president, Mr Rouhani declared that he wanted a substantive deal on Iran’s nuclear programme within “three to six months”. > Mr Rouhani and US President Barack Obama spoke on the phone in September > He stressed that he had “full power and complete authority” to negotiate with the P5+1 - the US, UK, France, Russia and China, plus Germany. He had earlier persuaded Ayatollah Khamenei to transfer responsibility for nuclear talks to the foreign ministry, which is led by the US-educated former diplomat, Mohammad Javad Zarif. > > Later that month, Mr Rouhani and US President Barack Obama became the first leaders of their countries to speak to each other since 1979. In a telephone conversation, they agreed to accelerate efforts to find a comprehensive solution to the nuclear crisis. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-is-there-any-way-this-can-end-well/611919.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-is-there-any-way-this-can-end-well/611919.md?page=9)