# Syria: Putin succeeds where Obama failed **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 30, 2016, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-putin-succeeds-where-obama-failed/775884 "2016-12-30T00:49:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ganthet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de0a6/32.png) [@ganthet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ganthet)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-putin-succeeds-where-obama-failed/775884/41 "2016-12-30T15:10:40Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > You’re making my point for me. Aleppo was indeed secured by ground fighting but not by Russian soldiers: the troops were Arab or Iranian, with perhaps a smattering of Russian advisors. How do you know? We [know](http://www.voanews.com/a/russia-chechnya-ground-troops-syria/3634787.html) that [Russian troop](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2016/03/29/how-russian-special-forces-are-shaping-the-fight-in-syria/?utm_term=.293f96a033b0)s have been involved in recent offensives. Are they going to suddenly sit this one out, given that Assad seems to have considered Aleppo (as Syria’s formerly most populous city) as the most important battle so far of the war? > [@](#): > > As for air power are you seriously suggesting that Russian air power was ineffective in Syria? And if Iraqi ground forces supplied by the US could drive Da’esh from Ramadi, etc then why could not Syrian rebels supplied by the US (before Russian intervention) have taken Aleppo and Damascus? I am saying that Russian air power so far has not been that decisive. Russia has made bombing runs in Aleppo, against other rebels in Idlib and elsewhere in northern Syria, and a few strikes against Da’esh. Outside of Aleppo, which was already hotly contested prior to Russia’s active involvement with no real likelihood of the rebels seizing all of Aleppo, Assad has not been able to pull off many successful (in terms of seizing significant territory) offensives since late 2015 when the Russians started their air campaign. As to why Syrian rebels could not seize Aleppo and Damascus before Russia got involved if they had U.S. support (but Iraqi military units could seize Tikrit, Ramadi, Fallujah, etc.), that’s easy. The support given to Syrian rebels so far appears to consist of light arms, anti-armor TOW missiles, communications equipment, medical supplies, and training. Maybe some light vehicles. The U.S. has provided Iraq with tanks, armored personnel carriers, humvees, F-16s, and an assortment of other light and heavy weaponry. The U.S. military is embedded much deeper with Iraqi military forces because there is a government and an organization to work with. Iraq had a shell of a military in late 2014 that was built back up, in conjunction with relying on Shiite militias that the U.S. has not armed but have been effective here and there. The biggest assets Iraq have are the Kurdish Peshmerga and the Iraqi Counterterrorism Forces, which is an elite special forces-equivalent unit that has been specially trained and equipped by the U.S. and has done the bulk of the important fighting and clearing operations so far. They were heavily involved in the Ramadi, Fallujah, and the ongoing Mosul operations. The Iraqi military also has a command center in Baghdad where U.S. and Iraqi forces work together closely to coordinate and plan operations, tactical deployments, requests for air strikes and reinforcements, as well as work with the Iraqi Ministry of Defense. Given the loose and disorganized nature of the various rebel groups in Syria, there is no equivalent centralized force or location where such deep coordination would be possible, let alone the infrastructure and trust needed to provide heavy weaponry such as tanks, air defense weapons, planes, and helicopters to any one or grouping of Syrian rebel forces. > [@](#): > > As for Obama’s options, I repeat: he could have supplied the rebels with some decent arms and backed them up with air power. There would be no need for American troops. Instead he chose to make one of the most humiliating climb-downs an American President has ever made, embarrassing both himself and his country. The rebels didn’t just need arms, they needed heavy weaponry - armor, planes, air defense weapons. But most of all they needed organization. No one rebel group, even if you include Da’esh, has the numbers or the organization to defeat Assad alone, even prior to Russian involvement. The U.S. was not going to just provide manpads, tanks, and indefinite ammunition to any rebel group that wanted them, particularly since significant training would be required so that rebels could operate any and all heavy weapons proficiently and effectively. They weren’t like the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan in October 2001, which had organization, which knew how to operate heavy weapons like (old) tanks, and which had the capability of conducting a mass offensive over a large front. Even then, it took a smattering of U.S. ground forces in addition to sustained air power to “finish” the job of at least kicking the Taliban largely out of Afghanistan and into Pakistan. ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-putin-succeeds-where-obama-failed/775884/42 "2016-12-30T15:11:25Z")
Guess where fighting has been reported today… ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-putin-succeeds-where-obama-failed/775884/43 "2016-12-30T15:33:55Z")
> [@bucketybuck](#): > > Guess where fighting has been reported today… Shopping malls across the US?.. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-putin-succeeds-where-obama-failed/775884/44 "2016-12-30T15:37:52Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > As for Obama’s options, I repeat: he could have supplied the rebels with some decent arms and backed them up with air power. There would be no need for American troops. Not a student of history, are you? Not even a casual observer. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-putin-succeeds-where-obama-failed/775884/45 "2016-12-30T16:01:47Z")
I’m glad we mostly stayed out of it, and wish we had stayed out entirely. I see no reason to believe US involvement in the region is any more likely to make things better than make things worse, in addition to putting American lives and resources at risk. It still boggles my mind that some folks believe that simplistic solutions lead to predictable outcomes in the Middle East. The region is inherently chaotic and unpredictable. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-putin-succeeds-where-obama-failed/775884/46 "2016-12-30T16:10:42Z")
I agree that the US should have “stayed out of it”. But my definition of staying out of it means a minimum of posturing about it, and possibly clandestinely helping/arming one side or doing a small bit here and there in a small quiet manner. What Obama did was the opposite: a maximum of forceful public statements and a minimum of actually doing anything productive. So not only did he accomplish nothing (which may have been inevitable, as others have noted) but he gratuitously sacrificed America’s power image and credibility. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-putin-succeeds-where-obama-failed/775884/47 "2016-12-30T16:43:36Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > You don’t think there would be even greater and more horrific humanitarian crises if the war had gone on and on and on? I guess it depends on how many more lives you’re willing to sacrifice in order to topple Assad. The thing is, this civil war is far, far from over. I’m not sure why you are under the misapprehension that Putin has succeeded, or that by having perpetrated a truly horrific humanitarian crisis to take Aleppo that this means Syria with Russian muscle has won, but it’s simply wrong. There are years if not decades ahead for Assad and his merry men (plus his Iranian and Russian allies), and eventually, Russia is going to declare final victory and pull out. They can’t expend the kinds of military power they have to get this far indefinitely, especially as their own economy continues to melt down. Couple that with the fact that those not deluded (such as yourself) by Russian propaganda aren’t too happy with Russian actions in this glorious victory…and Russia has forever associated itself now with not only a very brutal dictator who has committed countless war crimes against his own people but has done heinous acts of its own that further blacken the Russian Federations image to get to this point. And it’s done so in full light of the world stage, unlike some of it’s earlier actions that mostly went unnoticed as Putin et al attempted to piece the old USSR back together. As for Obama, I agree with earlier posters who were saying that Obama had a lot of poor options available…in fact, very shitty ones. When you have to choose between shitty options that go from simply bad to horrific humanitarian then you aren’t going to pull a winning hand out of the mess. I will say that, except to the faithful the US has come out of this mess in better shape image wise than Russia has…and Russia is by no means out of this yet. When this ceasefire ends in similar ways to the last 3 or 4 (I forget now how many failures this has been at this point), and when the civil war continues to drag on for year after year I think folks who have even a semblance of an open mind will look back on the US’s actions during the last 6 years in Syria and see we took the best of a bad lot of courses through the mire. This isn’t to say that Obama didn’t make mistakes or fuck up from time to time, but at least he didn’t draw us into the quagmire that Russia is in up to Putins muscular chest… ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-putin-succeeds-where-obama-failed/775884/48 "2016-12-30T17:05:19Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I agree that the US should have “stayed out of it”. But my definition of staying out of it means a minimum of posturing about it, and possibly clandestinely helping/arming one side or doing a small bit here and there in a small quiet manner. > > What Obama did was the opposite: a maximum of forceful public statements and a minimum of actually doing anything productive. So not only did he accomplish nothing (which may have been inevitable, as others have noted) but he gratuitously sacrificed America’s power image and credibility. The “opposite” would have been forceful public statements plus forceful large-scale action. I agree that the forceful statements were dumb and probably counter-productive, but I’m still glad the actions were minimal. The damage to our image and credibility would have been far worse if we had invaded or otherwise committed large-scale action. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-putin-succeeds-where-obama-failed/775884/49 "2016-12-30T17:58:26Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > What Obama did was the opposite: a maximum of forceful public statements and a minimum of actually doing anything productive. So not only did he accomplish nothing (which may have been inevitable, as others have noted) but he gratuitously sacrificed America’s power image and credibility. Thank God Trump will set things right! ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-putin-succeeds-where-obama-failed/775884/50 "2016-12-30T18:02:37Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Thank God Trump will set things right! Erhm… I think it’s still ‘President-elect Trump’. At least for the next 3 weeks. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-putin-succeeds-where-obama-failed/775884/51 "2016-12-30T18:03:57Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Erhm… I think it’s still ‘President-elect Trump’. At least for the next 3 weeks. And then he will set things right! ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-putin-succeeds-where-obama-failed/775884/52 "2016-12-30T18:06:47Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Thank God Trump will set things right! For some reason you see a lot of this on this MB. Any discussion of Obama’s possible negatives is likely to be met by whipping out the good old Trump card. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-putin-succeeds-where-obama-failed/775884/53 "2016-12-30T18:29:43Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > For some reason you see a lot of this on this MB. Any discussion of Obama’s possible negatives is likely to be met by whipping out the good old Trump card. Removed from context, the passage I quoted sounds perfectly descriptive of Trump, hence the comedic potential. In the larger sense, Obama gets a lot of scorn for things that also happened (and were occasionally worse) under previous presidencies and I see no reason to spare them, and if Obama gets scorned for things that Trump is very likely to do, I see no reason to spare Trump. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-putin-succeeds-where-obama-failed/775884/54 "2016-12-30T18:31:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Erhm… I think it’s still ‘President-elect Trump’. At least for the next 3 weeks. See?! He’s _already_ setting things right! And right in the middle of **aldiboronti** ’s funeral for the Democratic Party. Well, maybe not _today_’s funeral, maybe tomorrow’s. Day after. But soon! ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-putin-succeeds-where-obama-failed/775884/55 "2016-12-30T18:37:37Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > For some reason you see a lot of this on this MB. Any discussion of Obama’s possible negatives is likely to be met by whipping out the good old Trump card. Well, this ain’t the Bush leagues no more! ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-putin-succeeds-where-obama-failed/775884/56 "2016-12-30T18:41:20Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > In the larger sense, Obama gets a lot of scorn for things that also happened (and were occasionally worse) under previous presidencies and I see no reason to spare them, and if Obama gets scorned for things that Trump is very likely to do, I see no reason to spare Trump. If you’re so confident that Trump will mess up, then you should be OK waiting until he actually does, and don’t need to attack Trump now based on things he is “very likely to do”. There’s always a question as to whether you can defend a president by pointing to other presidents who have done the same or worse. I tend to think you can (though dependent on context). But defending a president by asserting that another president “is very likely to do” the same or worse seems to be taking it to a new level. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-putin-succeeds-where-obama-failed/775884/57 "2016-12-30T18:45:45Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > If you’re so confident that Trump will mess up, then you should be OK waiting until he actually does, and don’t need to attack Trump now based on things he is “very likely to do”. And then get a thread about me saying that I failed by not criticizing Trump when other posters succeeded?! No thank you very much! > [@](#): > > There’s always a question as to whether you can defend a president by pointing to other presidents who have done the same or worse. I tend to think you can (though dependent on context). But defending a president by asserting that another president “is very likely to do” the same or worse seems to be taking it to a new level. I’m holding out a faint hope that Trump will be surprisingly competent, truth be told. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-putin-succeeds-where-obama-failed/775884/58 "2016-12-30T18:48:39Z")
Another interesting foreign policy position for Obama; the administration spends weeks accusing Putin of ‘possible war crimes’ and murdering civilians, truing to get UN resolutions moving, and now it’s stuff like …“The international community hopes this ceasefire will hold so a Syrian-led transition toward a more representative, united, and peaceful government can begin.” Oh good Obama still speaks for the “international community”. Fwiw, Trump can’t trade with Assad and he isn’t going to personally benefit from involvement so he will absolutely leave it to Putin. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-putin-succeeds-where-obama-failed/775884/59 "2016-12-30T18:57:59Z")
I miss the old days, when Syria was a _Soviet_ client-state. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-putin-succeeds-where-obama-failed/775884/60 "2016-12-30T19:04:26Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > …I’m holding out a faint hope that Trump will be surprisingly competent, truth be told. Them you better clap like a motherfuck, because that Tinkerbell is stage four and sinking fast! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-putin-succeeds-where-obama-failed/775884.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syria-putin-succeeds-where-obama-failed/775884.md?page=4)