# Tackling a shooter **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 9, 2018, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224 "2018-11-09T03:19:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/41 "2018-11-09T21:04:06Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I’m right behind you. Go on 3. Is that “one two GO”, or “one two three GO”? Or the Maverick _Top Gun_ "on three…THREE…(two, one, which I’d never get to because I went on THREE!)? ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/42 "2018-11-09T21:05:00Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > Dude, you sorta need to re-think your life style or living conditions. That seems like a exorbitant amount of bullets flying around you. Well, he’s a honey badger, so… ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/43 "2018-11-09T21:15:16Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Paul touched it, but he didn’t grip it and stroke it as well as he might have. Military training is “Rush an ambush.” If you lay low you’ll be picked off at leisure, and if you run you’re likely to run into a purpose-built boobytrap zone. Your only hope for survival is to rush the ambush and stop the guns. Some of you will be shot, but they can’t get all of you before you’re on top of them. It’s a devilishly tricky instinct to train into folks whose minds are open to combat. It’d be pretty hard to train into students or even reasonably fit 25 year olds. It’s also a lot easier even for a trained soldier to charge when you’re firing a weapon, when you have a dozen of your friends charging alongside you, and when your lieutenant/sergeant is in front leading the way. Doing it unarmed, by yourself is a lot more difficult, both physically and psychologically. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/44 "2018-11-09T21:35:30Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It’s also a lot easier even for a trained soldier to charge when you’re firing a weapon, when you have a dozen of your friends charging alongside you, and when your lieutenant/sergeant is in front leading the way. Doing it unarmed, by yourself is a lot more difficult, both physically and psychologically. For you maybe. But for a sexual tyrannosaurus like myself, charging an active shooter is Tuesday night. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/45 "2018-11-09T21:38:39Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > But for a sexual tyrannosaurus like myself I’m totally going to use that in the [“made up band names” thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=857932). 😃 ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/46 "2018-11-09T22:11:53Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > Anyways, one part of that works on the assumption that someone can move 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. It would seem that the same person could also go 30 feet in 2 seconds. I think that theory is bogus. Again, if you’re pointed in the right direction and poised to run, then sure, you do that. But in a spontaneous moment in life? No way. How about a thought experiment: Let’s say that sometime in the next two weeks, someone 30 feet from you will fire a signal flare and a starter pistol into the air and stand there with flashing lights all over them. You’ll be awake when this happens, but other than that, it could be anywhere. You get $1000 if you can reach that person within 2 seconds. How much are you willing to pay to play this game? I, personally, wouldn’t pay a cent. I can’t imagine I’d make it with any appreciable chance. And that’s knowing that it’s going to happen in the next 2 weeks, as opposed to a thing that’s probably never going to happen to you in fifty lifetimes. ---
**Author:** ![Spud](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spud/32/347_2.png) [@Spud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spud)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/47 "2018-11-09T22:56:17Z")
Here is a local (to me) example of where it worked. The kid had planned to kill several and then himself. Ended up shooting two, killing none, and he is alive to face punishment. > **[Bleacher Report documentary: Jason Seaman was shot before he tackled alleged...](https://www.indystar.com/story/news/2018/11/02/bleacher-report-jason-seaman-threw-basketball-noblesville-shooting-suspect/1858342002/)** > > A Bleacher Report documentary reveals new information about science teacher Jason Seaman's role in stopping the Noblesville shooting. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/48 "2018-11-09T22:58:00Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > I think that theory is bogus. Again, if you’re pointed in the right direction and poised to run, then sure, you do that. But in a spontaneous moment in life? No way. > > How about a thought experiment: Let’s say that sometime in the next two weeks, someone 30 feet from you will fire a signal flare and a starter pistol into the air and stand there with flashing lights all over them. You’ll be awake when this happens, but other than that, it could be anywhere. > > You get $1000 if you can reach that person within 2 seconds. > > How much are you willing to pay to play this game? > > I, personally, wouldn’t pay a cent. I can’t imagine I’d make it with any appreciable chance. > > And that’s knowing that it’s going to happen in the next 2 weeks, as opposed to a thing that’s probably never going to happen to you in fifty lifetimes. I’m pretty sure that I, and nearly everyone else, would still be sitting in exactly the same spot having not fully processed what had happened. (The remainder would be under the nearest table experiencing a PTDS flashback.) But to be fair to the OP, I don’t get the impression you’re supposed to do this completely unaware - just that once you get moving it won’t take you too long to cover the distance. That said, unless you’re in a position to make your charge from someplace the gunman won’t see coming, I consider charging them to be tantamount to suicide. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/49 "2018-11-09T23:28:01Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > A young black man rushed the shooter in a recent shooting and was credited with saving several lives. His answer was that he was only trying to save his own life when he rushed the shooter. A couple years ago one my co-worker’s brother tried that - rushing a shooter. He died. So my anecdote cancels your anecdote. Yes, sometimes rushing the bad guy works. Other times it doesn’t. Risk your own life if you want, don’t risk anyone else’s on that tactic. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/50 "2018-11-09T23:33:04Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I’m pretty sure that I, and nearly everyone else, would still be sitting in exactly the same spot having not fully processed what had happened. (The remainder would be under the nearest table experiencing a PTDS flashback.) But to be fair to the OP, I don’t get the impression you’re supposed to do this completely unaware - just that once you get moving it won’t take you too long to cover the distance. > > That said, unless you’re in a position to make your charge from someplace the gunman won’t see coming, I consider charging them to be tantamount to suicide. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![seal\_cleaner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@seal\_cleaner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seal_cleaner)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2018, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/51 "2018-11-10T00:01:29Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Um… I’m not a “reasonably fit 25 year old” for starters? Neither are most people. Even if I could be classified as “reasonably fit”, or reach that exalted state, I’ll never be 25 again no matter what I do. > > And, as already mentioned upthread… you’ve never actually been shot, have you? > > Your solution might take out a shooter or two… but at the cost of a lot of death and maiming. How about we make guns less available for the crazy and the rabid to acquire? Great idea! So, is it mandatory psychological screenings for potential gun owners? Or, more efficiently, for everyone, just in case they ever try to buy a gun? ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2018, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/52 "2018-11-10T00:06:43Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > So if my choices are: > > -a year of therapy to cope with “what if I had intervened instead” > > OR > > -probably getting shot without disabling the shooter, and probably ending up dead > > I’ll take the therapy. And to add on, in either case you don’t save anyone. You either stay put and don’t save anyone or get shot and don’t save anyone. The only thing that changes is that you get shot. > [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > I think that theory is bogus. Again, if you’re pointed in the right direction and poised to run, then sure, you do that. But in a spontaneous moment in life? No way. > > How about a thought experiment: Let’s say that sometime in the next two weeks, someone 30 feet from you will fire a signal flare and a starter pistol into the air and stand there with flashing lights all over them. You’ll be awake when this happens, but other than that, it could be anywhere. > > You get $1000 if you can reach that person within 2 seconds. > > How much are you willing to pay to play this game? > > I, personally, wouldn’t pay a cent. I can’t imagine I’d make it with any appreciable chance. > > And that’s knowing that it’s going to happen in the next 2 weeks, as opposed to a thing that’s probably never going to happen to you in fifty lifetimes. That’s a slightly different scenario. This would be more like “The person with the lights and starter pistol is standing in front of you and gives you a count down, also, you don’t have a choice, you’re required to play”. Remember, this is about someone that’s going to attack you by hand or with a handheld weapon. The entire point is that since it would take [longer than] 1.5 seconds to run 21 feet, you should be able to outrun the attacker. Or put another way, you can’t shoot someone with a knife if they’re, say, 100 feet away. In any case, the point of the entire thing was that there’s a certain distance at which, on average, an attacker can get to you before you can fire a weapon. If the attacker is too far away, it’s murder, if they’re too close, you may lose. Here’s a great example how to deal with a knife wielding attacker. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/JfAYyZoVy5o/maxresdefault.jpg "How to survive a knife attack") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfAYyZoVy5o) ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2018, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/53 "2018-11-10T00:25:46Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > That gets into the ALICE training that they give school kids now. While you cover it in the rest of the post, as an acronym ALICE is probably more complicated than just remembering Run, Hide, Fight. Run if you can, hide if you can’t run and it’s an option, and if you can’t do either fight to the best of your ability. The latest shooting may make fighting seem less effective than it would be in general. The typical shooter isn’t a veteran Marine infantryman trained to deal with people that fight back. It’s probably ineffective to evaluate a general response in terms of the most dangerous situation - a highly trained shooter. The most likely situation, where the shooter has little or no experience firing at moving and/or fighting targets, is a better point to evaluate. The bright side is running is part of the fight, flight, or freeze natural response. One of the natural reactions is the preferred option. Unfortunately, freezing in the open is really common. It’s basically the worst response possible when dealing with a mass shooter. Some of the widespread social messaging we have to programs like ALICE may actually serve to increase the freeze response and increase casualties. From a Psychology Today article about fight, flight or freeze: > [@](#): > > So where, in what you perceive as a dire threat, is the totally disabling freeze response? By default, this reaction refers to a situation in which you’ve concluded (in a matter of seconds—if not milliseconds) that you can neither defeat the frighteningly dangerous opponent confronting you nor safely bolt from it. If run and hide aren’t an option, the best advice is fight. It’s probably the most viable chance of surviving even if the odds are low. Mentally preparing with the thought that low odds is synonymous with no chance of defeating the “frighteningly dangerous opponent” is a problem. IMO that’s mentally preparing for “Run, Hide, Stand quietly while waiting to die.” I don’t like that list of options. I never heard that shot in anger during my military service. Maybe I freeze when it’s real for the first time. Maybe I don’t; I made a number of quick decisions that saved me from serious injury of death over the years. I’m not going to mentally prepare myself to fail when fighting is the only option left. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2018, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/54 "2018-11-10T01:04:24Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > That’s a slightly different scenario. This would be more like “The person with the lights and starter pistol is standing in front of you and gives you a count down, also, you don’t have a choice, you’re required to play”. I’m not following you, here. The scenario the OP presents is that in response to a shooter showing up somewhere unexpectedly, you should rush them, and you can cover 30 feet in 2 seconds to take them out. That’s pretty analogous to my hypothetical, and is totally silly. You can’t make it. I don’t think there’s an implication that you’re specifically targeted. This is in response to the latest mass shooting news. I agree with your video that the right response is to run _away_ from an attacker as fast as you can. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2018, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/55 "2018-11-10T01:06:45Z")
I was thinking in terms of saving the most people and limiting casualties by rushing a shooter. I also was referring to a situation where we started conditioning ourselves to rush a shooter so maybe a dozen guys at once would attack rather than run. It is not always just about saving our own ass but we do want to give ourselves at least decent odds. With several rushing our odds would likely be better than it might be to run. Only about 25% of the shots are fatal. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2018, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/56 "2018-11-10T02:00:12Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I was thinking in terms of saving the most people and limiting casualties by rushing a shooter. I also was referring to a situation where we started conditioning ourselves to rush a shooter so maybe **a dozen guys at once would attack** rather than run. It is not always just about saving our own ass but we do want to give ourselves at least decent odds. **With several rushing** our odds would likely be better than it might be to run. Only about 25% of the shots are fatal. (bolding mine) Now read what you wrote and tell me you don’t see the flaw in your logic. mmm ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2018, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/57 "2018-11-10T02:24:27Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > (bolding mine) > > Now read what you wrote and tell me you don’t see the flaw in your logic. > mmm Help me out here. I see a situation where 30 might die as opposed to maybe 2 or 3. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2018, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/58 "2018-11-10T02:35:17Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > …Unfortunately, freezing in the open is really common. It’s basically the worst response possible when dealing with a mass shooter… Is that always true? I guess it depends what you mean by “in the open”. Of course, if a crowd outside is being sprayed with hundreds of rounds from an automatic weapon (like in Las Vegas) obviously freezing in place isn’t a good plan. But if you’re part of a crowd in a bar, it’s not easy to hide, and the shooter is picking out specific people one by one and aiming at them, isn’t a “stand quietly, don’t make myself prominent or noticeable” strategy reasonable? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2018, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/59 "2018-11-10T10:12:32Z")
> [@seal\_cleaner](#): > > Great idea! So, is it mandatory psychological screenings for potential gun owners? Or, more efficiently, for everyone, just in case they ever try to buy a gun? Wow, that was a leap. You know, we don’t let people drive a car without actually testing them to see if they know the rules of the road and can safely operate a vehicle. Why don’t we have _at least_ that for gun ownership these days? And no, people with psychological/mental health problems of certain types should not be permitted to own guns. If the condition is transitory/treatable then gun use might be allowed so long as the condition is under control. If it’s not - no, they should not be permitted to own or use guns for the safety of the rest of us. And, frankly, I wish our society was a lot more open about screening for _and treating_ mental health issues not just for gun safety but because it would make for a better society with healthier, happier, more functional people. But that’s not gonna happen in my lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2018, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/60 "2018-11-10T12:27:43Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > Only about 25% of the shots are fatal. Now _there’s_ a tag line. Get creative working on storyboards, we’re working through the weekend, people! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224.md?page=4)