# Tackling a shooter **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 9, 2018, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224 "2018-11-09T03:19:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/61 "2018-11-12T22:10:31Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > Help me out here. I see a situation where 30 might die as opposed to maybe 2 or 3. The problem is that it’s a classic Prisoner’s Dilemma/Tragedy of the Commons/Free Rider issue. The “best” outcome requires cooperation and coordination, but it’s hard to come by. Yes, it would be better if a bunch of people rushed a shooter. But for an individual making the “rush the shooter”/“don’t rush” decision, it’s much better to let _someone else_ rush the shooter, not be one of the rushers. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/62 "2018-11-12T22:15:04Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > That gets into the ALICE training that they give school kids now. I don’t think acronymns are a helpful way of learning this sort of thing. Many people couldn’t remember what ALICE stands for even in a peaceful, everyday, low-stress setting. Now, when people are suddenly face a life-and-death situation and their brains are at max panic, they’re supposed to recall an acronymn of this kind? ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/63 "2018-11-12T23:27:49Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > The problem is that it’s a classic Prisoner’s Dilemma/Tragedy of the Commons/Free Rider issue. The “best” outcome requires cooperation and coordination, but it’s hard to come by. “Let’s roll.” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/64 "2018-11-13T00:30:30Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > “Let’s roll.” Well yeah, in a situation where running and hiding from imminent death are absolutely impossible, and the inevitable death is sufficiently delayed to allow for communication and planning, cooperation and coordination are going to be somewhat easier to come by. I’m not in any way downplaying the courage and heroism of the passengers who wrested control of Flight 93 from the 9/11 hijackers. I’m just saying that such a situation is very different from facing an active shooter where running or hiding can give you a much better chance of survival than fighting back. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/65 "2018-11-13T01:16:00Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > “Let’s roll.” Do you want me to explain the differences between a split-second decision to charge a shooter in a random public place and the actions of the passengers of Flight 93, or can you figure them out on your own? ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/66 "2018-11-13T01:57:33Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > A couple years ago one my co-worker’s brother tried that - rushing a shooter. He died. So my anecdote cancels your anecdote. > > Yes, sometimes rushing the bad guy works. Other times it doesn’t. Risk your own life if you want, don’t risk anyone else’s on that tactic. It doesn’t cancel my anecdote. Not everyone is thinking of their own life if 20 or more lives are at stake. If one guy rushes and is killed the second guy will already be on top of him. The idea is that many people rush. It will save lives, maybe not your own. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/67 "2018-11-13T02:50:28Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > Another thing to be aware of is that these things happen a lot faster than you can imagine. I imagine EVERYTHING happening faster than humanly possible. That way, I’m never surprised! ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/68 "2018-11-13T02:51:04Z")
Aw, hey, no. No! Let’s please don’t smack on each other with this story. I didn’t mean to invoke it as a weapon, I meant it as a form of agreement. Sure, the timing can change the equation but in any event I now know the capacity for bravery and unity still exists among a random sampling of the population. But for that story, I would have zero hope that the same coming together could happen in an emergent event. Sorry. Some days I’m clear, and then there’s others. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/69 "2018-11-13T11:44:48Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > It doesn’t cancel my anecdote. Not everyone is thinking of their own life if 20 or more lives are at stake. If one guy rushes and is killed the second guy will already be on top of him. The idea is that many people rush. It will save lives, maybe not your own. Uh-huh. That’s _assuming_ more than one person is selfless enough to sacrifice themselves for other people. Otherwise, the first guy is dying a pointless death, just as pointless as all the deaths of the of the other victims dying in such a situation. Most people are going to want to save their own skins, if they’re able to function at all. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/70 "2018-11-13T18:43:07Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Aw, hey, no. No! Let’s please don’t smack on each other with this story. I didn’t mean to invoke it as a weapon, I meant it as a form of agreement. Sure, the timing can change the equation but in any event I now know the capacity for bravery and unity still exists among a random sampling of the population. But for that story, I would have zero hope that the same coming together could happen in an emergent event. Sorry. Some days I’m clear, and then there’s others. Apologies for my snark in response. In case it’s not clear to others: - The passengers of Flight 93 had time to organize. - They also didn’t face the kind of dilemma that people do in most cases with shooters. There was nowhere to run away. No chance that they would escape without beating the hijackers. If they attacked, some or all of them might die. If they didn’t attack, all of them would die (and a bunch of others). Not everyone has the capacity to be a hero, and it’s a testament to those people that they acted bravely. But, also, it’s a lot easier to act bravely when there aren’t any other good options. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2018, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/71 "2018-11-14T15:07:34Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Is that always true? I guess it depends what you mean by “in the open”. Of course, if a crowd outside is being sprayed with hundreds of rounds from an automatic weapon (like in Las Vegas) obviously freezing in place isn’t a good plan. But if you’re part of a crowd in a bar, it’s not easy to hide, and the shooter is picking out specific people one by one and aiming at them, isn’t a “stand quietly, don’t make myself prominent or noticeable” strategy reasonable? My strategy would be to use those people for cover as I make my way to the nearest exit. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2018, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224/72 "2018-11-14T16:08:52Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Uh-huh. > > That’s _assuming_ more than one person is selfless enough to sacrifice themselves for other people. Otherwise, the first guy is dying a pointless death, just as pointless as all the deaths of the of the other victims dying in such a situation. > > Most people are going to want to save their own skins, if they’re able to function at all. Also, if they are with their loved ones, they are likely to focus on getting them to safety. A parent with her kids is probably going to focus on getting those children away from the shooting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tackling-a-shooter/824224.md?page=3)