Tacky memorial cross on our property. What would you do?

[Magiver]

@Enginerd

My somewhat-informed guess: you probably don’t need the permit to remove what is essentially debris from your property; you need a permit to remove it from the creek.

Material in a channel will influence both the physical and ecological processes that go on there. For example, an obstruction might be come a defacto stormwater control structure, backing a little bit of water up and slowly releasing it instead of letting it all run down the channel at once. Removing something like that could cause erosion or flooding downstream.

If it’s been in there for a while, it might serve an ecological function - fish spawning habitat, cover for endangered frog species, etc. Based on what I’ve read here, I doubt there’s a problem actually removing it, but the DEP will want to be sure that they’ve taken a look at its effects on the system.

There may also be a timing issue. If the creek provides habitat for some species of fish, disturbances may be limited to particular times of the year. A permit from the DEP will likely address both the work you’re going to do and they way you’re going to do it.

I don’t think removing this cross is going to impact anything, and I’d guess your permitting process will be quick and easy. But the agency will only be cooperative if you contact them ahead of time. Work in streams is a definite exception to the “easier to ask forgiveness than permission” rule.

It’s debris in the creek with peeling paint and as such a contaminant. I don’t see a case for it as a “habitat” for anything. At best it’s blocking the flow of water and serves to collect other debris which further obstructs water flow.

Wrap it in cellophane to trap the paint and winch it out with a chain when the time comes.

I really like the 2 mangolia tree idea. It will serve as a beautiful reminder that can be appreciated by all concerned. If the community wants an inscribed plaque then it can be a community effort to finance and select the wording. I can’t imagine the family not appreciating the thoughtfulness behind it from a complete stranger.

[Szlater]

@aceplace57

That looks like a pretty elaborate memorial. Somebody spent money on it. You sure there isn’t an easement for that creek bank?

I’d remove the balloons and obvious trash. Repaint the cross.

After a few years it could be quietly removed.

I wouldn’t repaint the cross. Carrying out maintenance may incur liability.

[Enkel]

Despite my earlier postings, I would get the entire thing off of my property. When I bought my farm out of a foreclosure (2 year vacant), I tried to work with my one neighbor about his scrap metal and scrap wood on my farm. For 18 months I asked for it to be removed so I could fence a pasture. He is a pastor in his Church. I offered to go to the Church leadership to discuss the problem. Their response was to park cars so that the metal was touching my electric fence and other neighborly acts. So, I had the property line surveyed and installed a fence that ended up going right over their driveway.

Add to that fun, I had to evict a person who was living here for free while the bank owned it and expected to continue to live here for free after I bought it. They kept very large dogs and one had died recently. They’d buried it and made a little shrine site of the grave (lots of knick nacks and plastic stuff). They asked to be granted permission to continue to visit the grave (this after having literally damaged and broken into buildings because they were mad that they were no longer allowed total run of the farm.) I told them that once they were evicted by the sheriff, that was it. They dug up the body of a 100+ pound dog that had been buried only months prior (judging by the heft and size of the carcass), put it in a barrel and took it to her mother’s house where they buried it again. I don’t feel the least bit bad about having made them do it.

Based on these experiences, my attitude has become that if access to the property is so precious to XYZ, then they should have bought the property when it was available. If they want access so bad now, then they need to make me an offer that I won’t refuse.

For all this talk about how ‘nice’ coutry folk are… there’s a reason that horror stories in small towns are common. I have to continually fight Mother Nature to keep pastures and planting space. If I let it go, it would be one big scrub lot within a couple years. When I moved here, it took me three years to fight the local two legged varmint population back off the property because they all moved in when it was bank owned (I’m talking livestock, dumping trash, house stripped of all copper, one building used as a crack flop house, you name it) and felt like they were going to keep using it as their own. What I’ve learned about country folk is that they’re quite happy to run all over you for something they want and they’ll piss on you in a heart beat if it suits their needs.

Now, granted this little memorial is nothing like what I’ve been through, but if I were in the OP’s position, I plant the trees at the edge of the property (OFF the property), stick the bench up there and lay the crosses at the side protected by a tarp for pickup by who ever might want it.

And, I am sick to death of hearing about how ‘wonderful’ and ‘salt of the earth’ “country folk” are. I grew up in the boonies. I litterally had a genuine wet land as my back yard, owned horses but no tack beyond a halter and rope… I know “country folk” and they are not the “salt of the earth”. City gangs could only wish to be as ignorant and selfish as some of the “country folk” that I’ve known.

[billfish678]

@Magiver

It’s debris in the creek with peeling paint and as such a contaminant. I don’t see a case for it as a “habitat” for anything. At best it’s blocking the flow of water and serves to collect other debris which further obstructs water flow. .

And DEP types get even pissier still when you remove something without a permit that has potential to contaminate the place you are removing it from.

Permits are probably not a big deal to get 99 percent of the time. But as more than one person has said you sure better get one (or at least hope to hell you don’t get caught doing something without a permit that required one).

Way back in the day back in my hometown some local yokals decide to fight the law and the law won (big time). Very valuable property confiscated. Families life savings gone. Dad and son spend about 5 years in club Fed.

Man this thread is IMO filled with some less than optimal advice.

[billfish678]

@Enkel

And, I am sick to death of hearing about how ‘wonderful’ and ‘salt of the earth’ “country folk” are. I grew up in the boonies. I litterally had a genuine wet land as my back yard, owned horses but no tack beyond a halter and rope… I know “country folk” and they are not the “salt of the earth”. City gangs could only wish to be as ignorant and selfish as some of the “country folk” that I’ve known.

So country folks are worse than city gangs? And your advice is to do what is most likey to piss them off?

[Guinastasia]

@Magiver

It’s debris in the creek with peeling paint and as such a contaminant. I don’t see a case for it as a “habitat” for anything. At best it’s blocking the flow of water and serves to collect other debris which further obstructs water flow.

Wrap it in cellophane to trap the paint and winch it out with a chain when the time comes.

You’ve never lived near a creek, have you? Changing the way the water flows is a big deal.

[Enkel]

@billfish678

And DEP types get even pissier still when you remove something without a permit that has potential to contaminate the place you are removing it from.

Permits are probably not a big deal to get 99 percent of the time. But as more than one person has said you sure better get one (or at least hope to hell you don’t get caught doing something without a permit that required one).

Way back in the day back in my hometown some local yokals decide to fight the law and the law won (big time). Very valuable property confiscated. Families life savings gone. Dad and son spend about 5 years in club Fed.

Man this thread is IMO filled with some less than optimal advice.

Are you in FL?

In PA, I wanted to pull out a rusted/collapsed pipe that had been installed to let a ‘driveway’ run over the creek. The creek was about 2 feet wide. Since it was my parent’s property, I wanted to do it right. It took me two weeks and five different agencies (like I had to get a flood/runoff study done, etc) to put together the paperwork for the decisions that would tell me how wide and how high the replacement bridge would have to be. Then, once they told me how big the bridge needed to be, I had to go back to DEP with plans and they would show me the mud controls that would be required for the course of the project. To their credit, all of this was free. But this was for a simple bridge to carry at most an occasional small cart where the height of the creek would not have been changed and the flow would actually have been improved. What made everything a nightmare was the fact that it was in a wetland area.

Now, where I’m at, I need to jump through hoops if I do anything that will stir up silt in the creek on my current farm. But it isn’t nearly as much of a pain as working in a wetland.

I have another friend in PA who filled in a wetland area for parking for his business. This was along the road. So, of course it didn’t take long for DEP to show up and demand that he restore the entire area. If filling in an acre of swamp is expensive, you should see how expensive it is to make an acre of swamp! He learned his lesson the hard way because, had he gotten permits, they probably would have required a pond and let him have his parking lot.

[Enginerd]

@Magiver

It’s debris in the creek with peeling paint and as such a contaminant. I don’t see a case for it as a “habitat” for anything. At best it’s blocking the flow of water and serves to collect other debris which further obstructs water flow.

I didn’t say it was - I was just explaining why the DEP would have a permitting interest. That being said, you can’t always tell what qualifies as “habitat,” and sometimes it’s weird stuff. For example, there are three endangered freshwater mussels in Maine - if any of those had colonized the structure it could be classified as habitat, even if it’s artificial. The permitting process exists because most people a) don’t know how to tell that and/or b) don’t care.

I really like the 2 mangolia tree idea. It will serve as a beautiful reminder that can be appreciated by all concerned. If the community wants an inscribed plaque then it can be a community effort to finance and select the wording. I can’t imagine the family not appreciating the thoughtfulness behind it from a complete stranger.

I like the idea too, but it’s pretty easy to imagine the family being upset that some stranger wants to remove their memorial and replace it with something she came up with. It’s a hard spot for Renee to be in, made harder by the fact that she’s new to the community. I would want to get rid of it too, but I doubt there’s any solution that doesn’t hurt somebody’s feelings.

[Szlater]

@Enginerd

For example, there are three endangered freshwater mussels in Maine

Look at the size of the yellow lampmussel! Argh!

[Enginerd]

I bet one of 'em is enough for a whole meal!

[Enkel]

@billfish678

So country folks are worse than city gangs? And your advice is to do what is most likey to piss them off?

(a) I said ignorant and selfish, but yes, I’ve had to run people with guns off my property on a routine basis.

(b) I provided some nice things and options for the OP.

(c) My statement was that if I were in the OP’s situation, I get the stuff off of my land because the ‘good country folk’ will piss on who ever they please. Once I quite trying the ‘nice route’ here and just kicked the leaches out, I had NO problems with anyone else and life was actually much better. Mostly because I had done the equivalent of a dog that pisses on its territory and the other dogs learned to find somewhere else to mooch from.

[Szlater]

@Enginerd

I bet one of 'em is enough for a whole meal!

They’re probably flesh eating, and lay eggs in bodily orifices!

Argh!

Burn them all!

[hajario]

@Enkel

Despite my earlier postings, I would get the entire thing off of my property.

What you went through was horrible but there is no evidence that Renee’s neighbors are horrible too. It’s always best to at least try to be a good guy first, as you did. You can always take more drastic action later.

[Magiver]

@billfish678

And DEP types get even pissier still when you remove something without a permit that has potential to contaminate the place you are removing it from.

Permits are probably not a big deal to get 99 percent of the time. But as more than one person has said you sure better get one (or at least hope to hell you don’t get caught doing something without a permit that required one).

Way back in the day back in my hometown some local yokals decide to fight the law and the law won (big time). Very valuable property confiscated. Families life savings gone. Dad and son spend about 5 years in club Fed.

Man this thread is IMO filled with some less than optimal advice.

:rolleyes: Every year we have a “clean the river” day where the public is invited to clean up debris in and around the rivers. There is no permitting process to remove stuff. If it can be dragged out it’s fair game. The DEP is not concerned about the possibility that a tire has become a habitat for an endangered anything. The idea that you need a permit to pick up a chunk of concrete is without merit. Nobody is suggesting a backhoe or bulldozer nor explosives to remove the item. It’s literally a stick in the mud.

[Szlater]

@Magiver

Nobody is suggesting … … … explosives to remove the item.

And why not?

What with those Yellow Lampmussels marauding around Maine, explosives seem like a sensible route to take.

Did you see the size of them?

[Enginerd]

@Magiver

:rolleyes: Every year we have a “clean the river” day where the public is invited to clean up debris in and around the rivers. There is no permitting process to remove stuff. If it can be dragged out it’s fair game. The DEP is not concerned about the possibility that a tire has become a habitat for an endangered anything. The idea that you need a permit to pick up a chunk of concrete is without merit. Nobody is suggesting a backhoe or bulldozer nor explosives to remove the item. It’s literally a stick in the mud.

You’ve had an actual, real live employee of the Maine DEP here say explicitly that you need a permit to do this work. You are just plain wrong.

[Magiver]

@Enginerd

I didn’t say it was - I was just explaining why the DEP would have a permitting interest. That being said, you can’t always tell what qualifies as “habitat,” and sometimes it’s weird stuff. For example, there are three endangered freshwater mussels in Maine - if any of those had colonized the structure it could be classified as habitat, even if it’s artificial. The permitting process exists because most people a) don’t know how to tell that and/or b) don’t care.

fine, ignorance fought. Your advise to seek permits from the DEP has merit. I wouldn’t bother with it but that’s me.

[Magiver]

@Guinastasia

You’ve never lived near a creek, have you? Changing the way the water flows is a big deal.

that’s what the cross is doing. It should be removed. the only caveat is that something like an endangered mussel might be involved.

[Enkel]

@Magiver

Your advise to seek permits from the DEP has merit. I wouldn’t bother with it but that’s me.

That’s kind of a shame. If you own any amount of property, DEP and the county Ag departments are probably the most useful agencies out there. I’ve never had to pay them a dime for ‘consulting services’ and they’ve easily saved me thousands of dollars and years of wasted effort because of their understanding of the area. In some cases they even provide free materials and/or reimburse some activities that work toward their mission.

[Magiver]

@Enkel

That’s kind of a shame. If you own any amount of property, DEP and the county Ag departments are probably the most useful agencies out there. I’ve never had to pay them a dime for ‘consulting services’ and they’ve easily saved me thousands of dollars and years of wasted effort because of their understanding of the area. In some cases they even provide free materials and/or reimburse some activities that work toward their mission.

We’re talking about a piece of concrete stuck in a creek. It could have walked in during a flood. It’s debris. I’m not discounting the idea that some bureaucrat can’t make someone’s life miserable. That’s a real possibility. But following the same advice to contact the DEP they could also come out and discover $200K worth of environmental mayhem that needs to be cleaned up at the owners expense.

The other thing the owner can do is cut the cross off above the water line and leave the concrete in the hopes that endangered albino water weasels use it to attract endangered mussels for food. NOW you call the DEP and watch them wet themselves over which species to save.