# Take that gun and shove it. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 21, 2004, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-gun-and-shove-it/256229 "2004-07-21T19:20:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tinkertoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f19dbf/32.png) [@Tinkertoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tinkertoy)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-gun-and-shove-it/256229/21 "2004-07-21T22:43:39Z")
> [@Machetero](#): > > Where exactly are these loaded guns kept and how accessible are they? > > How exactly did he teach him to shoot? Did he let him shoot it all by himself? Watch him shoot it to see how it operates? Did the kid have hearing and eye protection? > > It would have to be a pretty small gun fo a 3 year old to handle by hisself. I’ve let little kids shoot a .22 before with hearing protection at around 4 and a lot of assistance was needed. > > “Microchip implants” are crazy stuff and teaching hate of homosexuals and non-whites is wrong. But no more so than animal rights advocacy or similar nonsense. > > I don’t know if you’re jumping to the wrong conclusions and exaggerating because this guy isn’t politically correct (maybe even racist), liberal and doesn’t hate guns. But that is my suspicion. > > Of course I could be wrong and the gun and the guns are laying around in reach of a little kid or he letting the kid to shoot without hearing protection or poor supervision. Maybe even racist? He hasn’t let a day go by in years without raging about how the “Fucking niggers and Beaners” are ruining the country. How if we just rounded them up and shipped them out of the country there would be no more crime. He also says “Any nigger caught committing a crime should be executed”. That’s a hell of a lot more than politically incorrect. He has also told his oldest son that he should kill himself because he is gay. This after he spent several years trying to beat the “gay” out of him. I can assure you I am not jumping to the wrong conclusions or exaggerating about my own brother I have known for 45 years. The loaded guns are not locked up as they may need them to defend themselves any moment. What with the feds breathing down their throats. :rolleyes: He is not welcome to any of our homes because he insists on bringing his guns with him. No the child does not wear protective eye or ear wear because that’s just for sissies. He is starting with a small handgun which he helps the child hold and fire. He then leaves this gun laying around the house loaded. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-gun-and-shove-it/256229/22 "2004-07-21T22:56:28Z")
I need to clarify. I don’t have a problem with ten year olds learning gun safety. But I’m a father of a 4 year old, and I know the capabilities of children that age. To give a child of that age a loaded gun is reckless endangerment in my mind. The only defense would be that the adult didn’t know any better. I don’t think arrested or institutionalized are that out of bounds. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-gun-and-shove-it/256229/23 "2004-07-21T23:03:06Z")
> [@Tinkertoy](#): > > The loaded guns are not locked up as they may need them to defend themselves any moment. What with the feds breathing down their throats. :rolleyes: He is not welcome to any of our homes because he insists on bringing his guns with him. > > No the child does not wear protective eye or ear wear because that’s just for sissies. He is starting with a small handgun which he helps the child hold and fire. He then leaves this gun laying around the house loaded. How acessible are they? Where are they laying? I don’t believe that guns have to be locked up to be out of reach of supervised 3 year olds. Definitely out of reach of course. Beating kids because their gay and not using hearing protection is extremely cruel and irresposible. The insistence of no hearing protection is reason enough to call CPS if true. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-gun-and-shove-it/256229/24 "2004-07-21T23:09:09Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Please tell me you’re kidding. While I’m not a PETA type, I do think people shouldn’t abuse animals. > > How that is in anyway comparable to racism and homophobia is beyond me. > > (If you’re talking about PETA types, they don’t even approach the horror of homophobia. When was the last time PETA tied a meat eater to a fence and beat him/her to death?) PETA and other animal rights nutcases want to harm me because of my culture. They also want to harm Blacks, Asians, and Hispanics because of their culture. They are cut of the same cloth AFAIC. These type of elitists (bigots) populate both sides of the political spectrum. They have no respect for freedom or culture AFAIC. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-gun-and-shove-it/256229/25 "2004-07-21T23:09:49Z")
> [@brianjedi](#): > > [hijack] > > It probably does have the word “vain” in its dictionary. However, since “vein” is the word for the tube that returns deoxygenated blood to the heart, there’s no reason to assume that spellcheck would detect such a mistake. > > Spellcheck can’t catch grammatical or word-usage errors, only misspellings. > > [/hijack] \That’s what I thought of at first, but he said “I thought so, but spellcheck disagreed” which implied he tried ‘vain’… Maybe he intended to type ‘vain’, a typo. made it ‘vein’, and then grammar check OK’d it.\ ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-gun-and-shove-it/256229/26 "2004-07-21T23:20:24Z")
I need to clarify. I don’t have a problem with ten year olds learning gun safety. But I’m a father of a 4 year old, and I know the capabilities of children that age. To give a child of that age a loaded gun is reckless endangerment in my mind. The only defense would be that the adult didn’t know any better. I don’t think arrested or institutionalized are that out of bounds. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-gun-and-shove-it/256229/27 "2004-07-21T23:29:23Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > I am all for gun rights and for training children in gun safety from an early age. > > But three years old is just too damn young. I hope someone is able to get these kids as far away from him as possible. Totally agree. Hell, I’m nervous around _adults_ who are shooting a handgun for the first time. We have three children, and are using the following as a guide: 7 years old: Learn gun safety 8 years old: Learn how to shoot a rifle 9 years old: Can shoot rifle with supervision 11 years old: Can shoot rifle without supervision 14 years old: Learn how to shoot a handgun 16 years old: Can shoot handgun with supervision 18 years old: Can shoot handgun without supervision The above is just a rough guide, and can certainly be modified depending on the maturity of the child. ---
**Author:** ![Tinkertoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f19dbf/32.png) [@Tinkertoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tinkertoy)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-gun-and-shove-it/256229/28 "2004-07-21T23:30:59Z")
> [@Shade](#): > > \That’s what I thought of at first, but he said “I thought so, but spellcheck disagreed” which implied he tried ‘vain’… Maybe he intended to type ‘vain’, a typo. made it ‘vein’, and then grammar check OK’d it.\ I typed vain and did a spell and grammer check. Spell check changed it to vein. and I’m a she not a he. I am not anti gun if that is what anyone thinks. MR.Toy and I own 5 ourselves. Mr. Toy is an avid hunter. But what I find so wrong is the age of the child being trained and just assuming he will never touch a loaded gun lying around because you said “no! no!”. Hell 3 year-olds can’t figure out that pulling the cats tail gets you scratched let alone what a gun can do. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-gun-and-shove-it/256229/29 "2004-07-22T00:39:43Z")
Wouldn’t a three-year-old learn this lesson? “Recoil hurts. If I play with a gun, it will hurt.” Just wondering. ---
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-gun-and-shove-it/256229/30 "2004-07-22T01:02:44Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > Wouldn’t a three-year-old learn this lesson? “Recoil hurts. If I play with a gun, it will hurt.” Just wondering. Sure, but a 3-year-old is also going to try to learn that lesson via experience, and we know what can happen with one gun experience. As has been said before, age-appropriate gun safety with a 3-4 year old would consist pretty much of keeping it locked away, unloaded, and telling the kid that they should not touch it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-gun-and-shove-it/256229/31 "2004-07-22T02:45:31Z")
I have a spelling checker It came with my PC It plainly marks for my revue Mistakes I cannot sea I’ve run this posting threw it I’m sure your please to no Its letter prefect in it’s weigh My checker tolled me sew ---
**Author:** ![Cosmopolitan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/94ad74/32.png) [@Cosmopolitan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cosmopolitan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-gun-and-shove-it/256229/32 "2004-07-22T04:03:54Z")
I think it’s interesting that some seem to be missing the part where the grandfather of the three year-old isn’t just trying to teach the toddler about firearms safety; he’s attempting to teach the kid _how to shoot people_. I’m not against teaching older kids (starting at age, say, 14) how to handle firearms with supervision. However, I find the idea of a loaded, unsecured gun being in the same house as a toddler very disturbing & even _that_ concern is trumped by my worry that someone is teaching a child - someone who doesn’t understand the ramifications of shooting another human being - how to shoot human beings. ---
**Author:** ![Cosmopolitan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/94ad74/32.png) [@Cosmopolitan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cosmopolitan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-gun-and-shove-it/256229/33 "2004-07-22T04:09:17Z")
I think I failed to make my point clear, even after all that. The gist of it is this: Even if the guns were safely locked away when not in use & even if the child were wearing hearing protection whilst practicing shooting with his grandfather, I’d still be screaming bloody murder (heh) because a child is being taught to use guns against certain people. ---
**Author:** ![Lizard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@Lizard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lizard)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-gun-and-shove-it/256229/34 "2004-07-22T06:53:51Z")
> [@Tinkertoy](#): > > He Is NOT teaching him gun safety he is teaching him how to shoot PEOPLE. He is teaching him that it’s okay to consider certain people as inferior. He is teaching that it is not wrong to shoot those people. Did you miss the part where the childs father, who was also trained by this man, shoot himself in the foot when he was 11 while playing with a gun? Ah. Well, assuming you know all of those things to be true, then that is most unfortunate. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-gun-and-shove-it/256229/35 "2004-07-22T07:12:10Z")
> [@Machetero](#): > > It would have to be a pretty small gun fo a 3 year old to handle by hisself. I’ve let little kids shoot a .22 before with hearing protection at around 4 and a lot of assistance was needed. What have you let them shoot , one of those Walther 9mm james bond guns ? or the 22 revolver , I realize your speaking of older children, but what would you start them off on ? Declan ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-gun-and-shove-it/256229/36 "2004-07-22T07:23:53Z")
> [@Lizard](#): > > But isn’t it reasonable that children who understand firearms, what they can do and how they work, are less likely to play with them and accidentally shoot someone? I frankly do not think so. Until children are old enough to handle the responsibility (and we can discuss for ages when _that_ is), all they need to know about firearms is what they need to know about power tools, electrical installations and poisonous chemicals: It’s dangerous, it’s not for you, keep away. I’ve never heard anyone advocate letting children use, say, a rotary saw to let them get a deeper understanding of the function and dangers involved. 3 years old ? The kid only needs to know that guns are not for him. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-gun-and-shove-it/256229/37 "2004-07-22T12:42:51Z")
> [@](#): > > **Cosmopolitan** said: > I think it’s interesting that some seem to be missing the part where the grandfather of the three year-old isn’t just trying to teach the toddler about firearms safety; he’s attempting to teach the kid how to shoot people. Show me a point where someone said that this particular guy was attempting to teach gun safety? A couple of us have said that _if_ he were teaching gun safety, that wouldn’t be a problem, but that what is happening here is clearly wrong, stupid, and bound to get someone hurt or killed. > [@](#): > > I’m not against teaching older kids (starting at age, say, 14) how to handle firearms with supervision. Fourteen is two years too late in a lot of places. Kids can begin hunting at age 12, using firearms, as long as they are supervised in Pennsylvania. > [@](#): > > **Declan** said: > What have you let them shoot , one of those Walther 9mm james bond guns ? or the 22 revolver , I realize your speaking of older children, but what would you start them off on ? If it wasn’t a pellet gun or an air rifle, probably a .22 revolver. Preferably single action only. > [@](#): > > **Spiny Norman** said: > Until children are old enough to handle the responsibility (and we can discuss for ages when that is), all they need to know about firearms is what they need to know about power tools, electrical installations and poisonous chemicals: And how many parents put the Lysol or the Draino in a vault even though those things are quite deadly to little kids who drink them? They’re usually kept in one place, fairly inaccessible to the kid, and the kid is taught not to go in there and watched to make sure he/she doesn’t. > [@](#): > > I’ve never heard anyone advocate letting children use, say, a rotary saw to let them get a deeper understanding of the function and dangers involved. Nah, grandmasix let me use the circular saw under her supervision around 4 or 5 years old to cut up scrap wood because I thought the thing was neat-o. > [@](#): > > 3 years old ? The kid only needs to know that guns are not for him. My learning at that age was something like ‘Those things in that cabinet are not your toys. They belong to dadsix, and you are not to play with them. You have toys. You do not play with someone else’s things.’ Then when dadsix would go hunting and bring home the dead game, he would show me where he had shot it, what the bullet hole looked like, what the exit wound looked like, and let me hold the gun he used. I don’t know what exactly my young brain thought at that time, but I’d guess it was that I didn’t want any of those holes in myself. ---
**Author:** ![GrizzRich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7ba0ec/32.png) [@GrizzRich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrizzRich)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-gun-and-shove-it/256229/38 "2004-07-22T13:15:05Z")
Shiva. H. Vishnu! I’ve got a three-year-old boy. He’ll learn gun safety…someday. He already knows the ‘no-touchy’ rule if you see anything that looks like a gun. /slight proud-papa hijack/ Jeez, my boy already is learning tool safety. He knows to stay well back when I’m running a power-tool. He’s got a plastic tool-kit from Home Depot. He voluntarily wears his safety goggles when he “runs” his toy drill! (no moving parts!) He even scolded me when I entered his room when he was “drilling” because I wasn’t wearing my safety glasses. /slight proud-papa hijack/ ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-gun-and-shove-it/256229/39 "2004-07-22T15:42:19Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > What have you let them shoot , one of those Walther 9mm james bond guns ? or the 22 revolver , I realize your speaking of older children, but what would you start them off on ? > > Declan A Smith and Wesson Model 34. A small framed, steel .22LR. Explain how it’s dangerous and how it should handled before, after, and during shooting. See if they can hold it unloaded and explain sighting and trigger pull (when to put your finger inside the trigger gaurd too). With ear protection on (and eyes, but especially ear protection) and them in front of me, I hand them gun loaded with one round and cocked with my thumb between the hammer and frame and hold on to it and explain everything again and then let them shoot. Followed by a lot of praise. I demonstrate what we’re going to do first as well. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-gun-and-shove-it/256229/40 "2004-07-22T16:02:35Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > 11 years old: Can shoot rifle without supervision Wow. Our cultures really are separated by more than a common language. Shit, I nearly blew my hand off with a firecracker when I was 12. Heaven knows what I’d have done with a rifle, training or no… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-gun-and-shove-it/256229.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-gun-and-shove-it/256229.md?page=3)