# Take That Offensive Anti-War T-Shirt Out of our Mall! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 5, 2003, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236 "2003-03-05T14:11:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2003, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/61 "2003-03-05T20:24:07Z")
The Smoking Gun has put the [arrest report](http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/crossgates1.html) online. The rent-a-cop claims that he was responding to a complaint by a customer of a verbal dispute between the shirt-wearers and someone else. I would be interesting to know if there is any truth to that. (Any sympathy I might have had for the security guard evaporated when he wrote “the customer _proceeded to tell me_ that she saw two gentlemen wearing anti-war t-shirts…” That particular bit of information-free verbiage really puts a hair up my ass. I guess a certain type of mentality thinks that it sounds authorative.) There seems to be no mention of the alleged altercation after that. If the guard made a convenient false statement, I wonder if any charges will follow? Or will the old lady turn up? ---
**Author:** ![Nutty\_Bunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d07c76/32.png) [@Nutty\_Bunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nutty_Bunny)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2003, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/62 "2003-03-05T23:41:30Z")
I can’t believe the number of people I hear–everyday–talking about people who don’t want a war, as if they are terrorists. I hear things like, “We should just blow them away, too!” and “If they don’t like it, they can leave the country!” The same things are said about terrorists or immigrants…by ignorant people. It’s ridiculous that some people won’t let anyone have a differing opinion. It’s fucking barbaric to hate others for their beliefs, which makes these so-called “good Americans” fucking hypocrites for being all gung-ho about going to war. Their behavior is part of the reason we go to war–to protect those rights for people in this country and around the world. I thought when I moved away from redneck country, I would get away from most of the people that think like that, but it just shows me that ignorant people are everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Nutty\_Bunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d07c76/32.png) [@Nutty\_Bunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nutty_Bunny)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2003, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/63 "2003-03-05T23:48:22Z")
And furthermore, the same can be said about war protesters that are becoming violent or forceful. It’s hypocritical to promote peace when you’re screaming in someone’s face and getting violent. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/64 "2003-03-06T00:03:41Z")
[Link to GD thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=167471) ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/65 "2003-03-06T00:20:31Z")
Actually, _is_ a mall considered “private property?” I assumed it would be considered to be a “public accommodation.” Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/66 "2003-03-06T00:29:48Z")
A mall is private property in the same way that a store is private property. It’s just a building owned by a company, and space is leased to the individual stores. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/67 "2003-03-06T00:49:43Z")
I think Esprix is correct and that a mall is considered a “public accommodation” as defined by most civil rights legislation. A quick [Google search for New York state laws](http://www.nysdhr.com/annualjuris.html) confirms that the mall may run into some trouble here: > [@](#): > > Places of public accommodation include hospitals, nursing homes, clinics, doctors’ and dentists’ offices, hotels, restaurants, public transportation, amusement parks, sports facilities, garages, entertainment and cleaning establishments, and retail and wholesale stores. A doctor or dentist may not refuse to treat a patient because of the patient’s HIV/AIDS status. Similarly, a taxi may not refuse a fare because of a person’s race or other covered category. I don’t know how NY state defines discrimination, though-- is political orientation covered? Is something as nebulous as “anti-war” considered an affiliation? ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/68 "2003-03-06T00:50:49Z")
Why is this getting so much attention? What we have here is a mall security guard acting like an idiot. He probably is an idiot for cying out loud. That’s the issue here. This doesn’t even get to First Amendment rights, or any sort of “discrimination.” It’s just STUPID. The security guard was stupid for bracing the guy, mall management was stupid for not establishing a consistent and understandable policy, and, frankly, the protesters are stupid for obvious reasons. This whole thing is stupid. And I really hate that mall. Ask me about my trip to Eastern Mountain Sports sometime. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/69 "2003-03-06T01:23:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Why is this getting so much attention? > What we have here is a mall security guard acting like an idiot. He probably is an idiot for cying out loud. That’s the issue here. It’s not at all clear that it’s a simple case of a single guard being an idiot-- at least three mall employees (or contractees) were involved. Were they enforcing policy as they were given to understand it? Where did the complaint originate? Were the shirt-wearers actually creating a disturbance? It’s getting attention because it’s actually pretty interesting. I would sympathize with mall security if the Downs can be shown to have been creating a tangible concern, and not just shopping while wearing the ‘wrong’ shirts, as they have maintained. In the police report, the store detective and the rent-a-cops describe _different_ situations that warranted the ejection. I would be interested to see the CCTV tapes to see who related the story most accurately. If the Downs were actually going up to shoppers and engaging them in dialog, or debate, or whatever, than I agree that the store was well within their right to ask them to leave, and this whole thing is a tempest in a teapot. On the other hand, if the Downs were behaving like other shoppers, and the most obtrusive thing about their politicking was their printed t-shirts, then the store (or, at least, the security guys, if they were acting strictly from their own,) not only made a serious lapse in judgement, but Katie Light and Robert Williams have both committed a crime in filing a false police report. Since the guy who got arrested was an attorney, we can rest assured that such an indiscretion won’t go unpunished. It will be interesting to see what actually happened. ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/70 "2003-03-06T02:12:12Z")
Yeah, good points, but I still don’t get it. A guy got ejected form a (horrific) shopping mall, refused to leave, and got arrested for trespassing. Why is this garnering national interest? Is it the “war/anti-war” element? If so, this is incredibly lame. People get kicked out of that joint all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Ennui](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ennui/32/3396_2.png) [@Ennui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ennui)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/71 "2003-03-06T03:01:43Z")
I was discussing this story with a friend of mine today, he’s a cop. He told me the only thing he could think of that would warrant (official) attention is if the person wearing the “provocative” T-shirt was likely to be assaulted by a group of people and if the situation could be more peaceably resolved by removing the “offending” person rather than letting X number of people comit some form of assault leading to all of them being dragged away. Enforcing the law is his job but so is keeping the peace, but neither of us saw anything in the accounts of this story that indicated this was necessarily the case here. Based solely on the published reports I can see no justification what so ever in this arrest and should this in fact be the case I believe I would rather enjoy being the plaintiffs attorney in any pending civil complaint. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/72 "2003-03-06T03:03:30Z")
Yes, it’s the “war/anti-war” element. And the angle of the mall as a “public accommodation” – meaning that although a private place of business, they may not act discriminatorily against customers. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/73 "2003-03-06T03:40:55Z")
Man, does that Mall have a PR **Nightmare** on it’s hands! The Security dude, after having his hearing destroyed by screaming bosses, is probably now “temporarily” assigned to cleaning out the Mall’s giant dumpsters, pending things quieting down, when he will be fired. Oh, and I just want to add my voice to those who think that **yme** is a stark raving moron. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/74 "2003-03-06T03:58:43Z")
I agree with Nutty Bunny,loving peace and life does not make you unpatriotic,and backing the idea of mass death and destruction does not make you a patriot. True patriotism is harder to define,but a statement like “I’d give my life to protect your right to express your opinion” fits within the bounds of patriotism. How many of the people who have said such hateful things about pacifists etc. would do that for EVERY citizen,and not just the ones they agree with,and like? Freedom of expression should mean just that,the ability to reasonably express one’s thoughts and feelings while obeying the laws of the country,and hopefully courtesy too. It’s ridiculous that wearing such a sentiment as “Peace” on a t-shirt can cause such hatred in others,and it speaks more eloquently than I can on the sad state of this nation’s emotional maturity as a whole. When did it become acceptable,to menace and intimidate other’s into quieting their personal opinions? Why is it so wrong to disagree with the president’s ideas? What is it,that causes people to become so aggressive,when faced with an individual who does not share the same ideas they do? Why do these same people need everyone around them to agree with them? Do they really have self esteem that low? Or is it that they cannot accept anyone who differs from them as non-enemies? I’m amazed by such mentalities,and morbidly curious about just what it is that causes such reactions. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/75 "2003-03-06T04:04:44Z")
As an after-thought I thought I’d make the following statement: I understand that there is a time when war is something that should be engaged in. (The Revolutionary War,Civil War, and World War 2 come to mind immediately.) I’m just not convinced that the target of the currently proposed war is the correct one,nor am I convinced that the publicly professed motivations are the only ones. I love my country,but this does not mean I have to love the idea of my friends dying for a reason I do not fully understand. I know that all the soldiers at their posts,are doing what they feel is the right thing,and they are doing it for my sake,and the sake of every one else. (Whether they agree,or like them or not…because they are citizens of the United States of America.) I honor,and respect them because of this. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/76 "2003-03-06T04:06:30Z")
Yes, the mall is within its rights to kick someone out for wearing an anti-war T-shirt. I am also within my rights to not shop in that mall until this action is condemned, the charges are dropped, and the security guards in question punished (assuming the facts are as they have been presented). I am similarly within my rights to write to the corporate headquarters of stores located in this mall, letting them know that I will not shop at their stores anywhere unless they condemn this action, calling for the charges to be dropped and the security guards punished. I intend to do just that. Dr. J ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/77 "2003-03-06T04:13:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hamlet \* > \*\*Can we please quit with the “America at it’s worst” crap that seems to pervade so many posts recently. This one episode had fuck-all to do with “America”, or with the government. It had to do with a idiotic pissant security guard whose IQ could be counted on one hand, and I’m sick of every little thing that happens in this country being an indictment of this country. There’s idiots in every country of the world, so just stop it! Thank you for your time. \*\* So you’re sick of every little thing that happens in your country as being an indictment on your country? Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay… let me ponder on this for a moment… For the benefit of us Dopers outside of the USA, tell me please, just what **are** we supposed to use as a means of assessing the people (and the social climate) of the USA if we DON’T use “every little thing” as our means to paint our canvas? Would you prefer that we only watch Doris Day films from 1958 and never wind any further forward in time than that date? Or worse yet, only watch episodes of “Friends” and Jerry Bruckheimer films? A tad oversensitive about what other people think, aren’t you? I mean to say… the t-shirt incident might be isolated - it might not. If such incidents occur enough times, then it becomes a trend - and a rather worrying trend too. For your reference, I was an Australian living in the USA in 1980. I was only 18 and my family and I had been living in Cupertino CA since 1978 - my father was quite a highly regarded structural engineer and he had been brought over from Australia to work for a few years on bridges and dams and that sort of thing. I can recall the Iranian Hostage crisis - and Americans everywhere were burning Iranian flags and really giving Iranian immigrants and descendants a totally hard time. None of it was noble, and more than a few people hung their heads in shame at the end of it. Mob mentality, and institutionalised persecution is everything America stands AGAINST if you ask me - and as such, an incident like this rings alarming warning bells. **Hamlet** , you might not like my message, and you certainly don’t have to agree with it - but the beauty of democracy is this - I can hang shit on Australia and my fellow Australians anytime I want if they’re being jerks, and your fellow Americans can do the same within the USA too. It doesn’t mean we’re any less loyal, or committed to making our countries better places. Conversely, it actually shows that we care - as averse to just plain being apathetic and letting “everything be someone else’s problem”. Trust me when I say this, contrary to what you would have us believe, America, and her inherent strength of character is more than capable of coping with the sort of mild criticism I’m seeing on this postboard. Indeed, your sensitivities are actually rather funny - as in, they genuinely entertain me because they provide such a rich fertile platform for ridicule. Thank goodness you’re not in a public position of importance. P.S. There _are_ idiots everywhere in the world. When using the plural, you use the word “are” instead of “is”. If you were talking about just one idiot, and one idiot only, you could say “there’s an idiot in every country”, but when using the plural the correct pronunciation is “there are idiots in every country”. ---
**Author:** ![sperfur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9adbd/32.png) [@sperfur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sperfur)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/78 "2003-03-06T04:16:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by booka \* > **yme** , you have the thoughtful reasoning powers of a wet stump, and yet … you can count. > > My 56th post wasn’t a waste after all. It gave you the chance to show off your uncanny skill with numbers, when everything suggested that you were just an idiot. > > Now, can you tell me what post # this one is for me? > > Go ahead - give it a go. > > Take your time. It’s “within your rights”. > > We’ll wait. Just had to tell you, **booka** , I laughed out loud at this post. You are one funny guy/gal/thing. Thanks. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/79 "2003-03-06T04:19:54Z")
Just in case no one else has mentioned it (I looked, it didn’t seem like any of you had) _The O’Reilly Factor_ on FoxNews is having a story about this tonight. (Like, any minute for the EST and CST folks.) ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/80 "2003-03-06T04:33:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yme \* > \*\*You wasted your 56th post on that? Bravo. \*\* Well, I’ll waste my seven hundred and something’th post on this: I’ve heard more intelligent comments than your first post in the this thread from the slime that puddles under the dumpster behind my local grocery store. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236.md?page=5)