# Take That Offensive Anti-War T-Shirt Out of our Mall! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 5, 2003, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236 "2003-03-05T14:11:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/101 "2003-03-07T02:14:53Z")
\*_Boo boo_, you’re not quite getting it either, “mate.” We have to earn the respect of the rest of the world? Fine, but if we haven’t done it yet, we’re never going to. What’s going on now, globally, is that our current administration is saying, “Here’s what we’re going to do. If you like it, join us, if you don’t, stay out of the way.” You are welcome to form whatever opinion you like around that. I’ve formed mine, and it ain’t rosy. But it’s not a deal-breaker either. You don’t seem to be able to to divorce the concepts of “the current U.S. government” and the “United States of America” in your own feverish little brain. The pitiful part is that you are arguing a point that isn’t at all related to the subject of this thread. What **Hamlet** is saying is that you seem to be drawing a picture of this country based on the actions of a few isolated idiots. I concur with his analysis, and conclude the following: You are a useless moron. Please note that I didn’t say “Australians are morons,” because I can make the proper distinction. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/102 "2003-03-07T02:53:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Boo Boo Foo \* > **Hamlet, you just don’t get it, do ya?** So, I get to add pompous to the long list of your faults now too? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Boo Boo Foo \* > **You’re whining about how people say stuff about the USA in this thread (and everywhere else on the Straight Dope board) - and you’re really letting it upset you… and quite frankly, it’s silly… it’s like asking people to stop wearing wrist watches because wrist watches offend you…** I get “upset” at ignorance in all it’s forms. Gosh, wonder why I might be “upset” at you. I know your opinion means less than nothing to me, but I still have a problem when people, no matter their nationality, are complete bloomin’ idiots. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Boo Boo Foo \* > **There’s an old saying we’ve got down here - never confuse “popularity” with “respect”. You can manipulate popularity, but you can NEVER force someone to respect you. The same goes for the United States, or any other country you might care to name. Whether you like it or not, the rest of the world, indeed, the rest of your countrymen, are gonna choose how much respect they have for the United States - regardless of your pleas.** I am also quite aware that babbling idiots like yourselves are going to make decisions about the United States based on the actions of one idiot in one shopping mall, in one state. However, I can do may damndest to stop you from infecting others. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Boo Boo Foo \* > **That’s why your requests for criticism ‘abstentia’ are funny - they only invite ridicule for yourself and achieve absolutely zero in terms of altering the degree of respect that others have for the United States.** Just because I feel generous, I will explain, for the third time now, that I have no problem with criticism of the United States if it is deserved. It’s when typing monkeys like yourself figure that they can judge the tenor of the United States from the actions of one numbskull in Albany that I find myself responding. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Boo Boo Foo \* > **Look, I know you’re trying to be loyal and all, but mate, there are so many other more effective ways to do it than to whine about how people are expressing their opinions.** Loyalty has nothing to do with it. I love my country, sure, but I also see a lot of things wrong with it. And, now for the 4th time: it’s not how people express their opinions, it’s that their opinions on an entire country are based on one numbskull. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Boo Boo Foo \* > **Bottom line? I, and my fellow Dopers, are gonna form our own opinions of the USA regardless of how much you’d like to manipulate the outcome.** And I am going to tell you that you’re a fucking idiot for forming an opinion of an entire country based on one trivial, idiotic episode. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Exgineer_ > **Please note that I didn’t say “Australians are morons,” because I can make the proper distinction.** Beat me to the punch you rat bastard. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/103 "2003-03-07T03:01:42Z")
**Exgineer** , I disagree, and here’s why… never once in this thread, have I offered an opinion on the United States, or her people in any capacity. Certainly, however, I’ve gone out of my way to ‘lampoon’ **Hamlet** for being ‘overly precious’, and he doesn’t like it, and now he’s getting all antsy. And you **Exgineer** are buying into that by offering an unwarranted insult as well. More importantly, your assertion that I’m drawing a picture of the United States based on the actions of a few isolated idiots is bunkum, pure bunkum. My opinion (which I’ve kept to myself, by the way) is formed through years and years and years of observation and personal experience. It’s actually a very glowing opinion - and I’m sure your anger towards me right now wouldn’t be pleased to hear that. You see, I’ve got nothing but kind words for the USA and her peoples. And I would never offend my lovely American friends on this postboard by offering anything else… as the old saying goes… “I’m quite happy to strangle my mother, but don’t you dare say a bad word about her yourself OK?” So, being aware of that old chestnut, there’s no way in the world I would ever offer criticism of the USA as an outsider on this postboard. I love the United States… I love the concept behind it… and I love her people. That being said, **Hamlet** and **exgineer** - both of you now are very guilty of putting words in my mouth and drawing conclusions which don’t need to be drawn. You are both assuming, incorrectly, that the t-shirt incident has affected my attitude towards the USA - and it hasn’t. So, I reiterate… my only issue in this thread has simply been this - **Hamlet** in the very first post I quoted you on, you were jumping up and down like a little kindergarten child demanding your fellow countrymen stop saying “bad nasty” things which you didn’t want to hear… and by any yardstick, I perceived that post as being petulant and ripe for ridicule. The t-shirt incident itself influenced me not one iota in my love of the USA or her people. But your post **Hamlet** sure did invite a shitload of ridicule on my part, and as such, I took the opportunity to have some fun - and I must say, I’ve had some - oodles actually. As for you **Exgineer**? You’ve merely chosen to buy into something which had nothing to do with you at all. You’ve chosen to interpret my “fun-poking” at **Hamlet** as a general paint-brush insult at the USA, and well, quite frankly - you’re just plain wrong. Never, ever, at any stage did I insult yourself, or your country. Indeed, I’ve gone out of my way in this post to demonstrate how conciliatory I am to the country of the USA herself. Bottom line? **Hamlet’s** feelings are hurt because someone (me) has ridiculed his earlier post. And you **exgineer** are choosing to buy into something which you don’t need to buy into… it’s your right to buy into it of course, but it’s also my right to point out to you how silly you are as well… ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/104 "2003-03-07T03:20:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Boo Boo Foo \* > **The t-shirt incident itself influenced me not one iota in my love of the USA or her people.** Which was my entire point in my post, that it shouldn’t influence anyone’s view of America. Wow, we agree. Now that that’s out of the way, I only find myself confused as to why are you being such a pompous asshat? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Boo Boo Foo \* > **But your post Hamlet sure did invite a shitload of ridicule on my part, and as such, I took the opportunity to have some fun - and I must say, I’ve had some - oodles actually.** I see now. It’s your lack of reading comprehension and odd ability to ascribe whatever meaning gives you the giggles to a post that wasn’t there. And, as a nice side effect, it helps inflate your ego. Now I understand! > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Boo Boo Foo \* > **Bottom line? Hamlet’s feelings are hurt because someone (me) has ridiculed his earlier post.** Trust me, you aren’t hurting my feelings. True, I am a bit miffed, but **not** that you “ridiculed” my earlier post, but that you went out of your way to miscontrue it, for the sole purpose of mocking it. Round here, that’s called a strawman. So, go ahead and mock an argument nobody in this thread made, if it makes you feel better, just don’t ascribe that argument to me. ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/105 "2003-03-07T03:29:50Z")
Well you gotta admit **Hamlet** , you’re really easy to wind up when you’re fired up like that, aren’t you? The more you bit on the bait, the easier it was for me to play with you. Still, with hindsight, it wasn’t noble and I apologise. Perhaps my reasoning was that because it’s the pit it was OK. It was a bit of fun - certainly. But I never meant to get personal with ya - I just felt like playing a bit of mental tennis. Honestly, no hard feelings my friend. Honestly. Feel free to get even with me another day - I promise I’ll cop it sweet. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/106 "2003-03-07T03:39:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Boo Boo Foo \* > \*\* But I never meant to get personal with ya - I just felt like playing a bit of mental tennis. Honestly, no hard feelings my friend. Honestly. > > Feel free to get even with me another day - I promise I’ll cop it sweet. \*\* Anyone who has read this thread and your statements will realize that I have nothing to “get even” with you about. You made an ass of yourself by intentionally misrepresenting my post for your own giggles. No sweat off my brow. And I too have no hard feelings. You may want to watch yourself with those kinda games in the future though. ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/107 "2003-03-07T03:57:35Z")
However, take note of something… In my opening post, I asked if we should not also let episodes of “Friends”, or a Jerry Bruckheimer film be our sole means of assessing the USA? My point being, I was demonstrating the irony of singling out the t-shirt incident in isolation as a silly means of assessing an entire vast country. In that first post, I offered nothing other than a gentle lampooning of yourself **Hamlet**. Unfortunately, you missed the irony - and as such, you also missed the point of my opening post and misinterpreted it’s meaning to mean something entirely OPPOSITE to what I intended. So, I would state, that in my defense, I certainly wasn’t alone in misrepresenting what was said… hence, I truly don’t think I made an ass of myself. I merely noticed that you had misinterpreted me, and were fired up about it, so I gave you some more petrol to be fired up about. As I said, my later behaviour wasn’t noble - but my original post wasn’t machiavellian or gamesmanship either. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/108 "2003-03-07T04:11:20Z")
All of this is a conflict over pronouns. Yes; pronouns. Someone (cjhoworth? not gonna check) said, “This is America at its worst.” Hamlet and some other people misinterpreted “this” to mean, “the current state of things in the US.” In other words, “America is currently at its worst.” That’s not the sense of the expression “This is … at its worst.” In that expression, “this” refers to the _event_ in question. In other words, “This specific event is America at its worst,” or, The political climate in America has good elements and bad elements, and this is one of the worst elements. At least, given the startled reactions of the people who agree with the statement to the outcry of the rest, I’m prepared to believe that this is what they meant, rather than “America is currently at its worst.” ---
**Author:** ![pezpunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@pezpunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pezpunk)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/109 "2003-03-07T12:28:18Z")
I found an interesting article on the subject of free speech in the mall. Here it is: [http://shoppingcenterworld.com/ar/retail\_freedom\_speech\_mall/](http://shoppingcenterworld.com/ar/retail_freedom_speech_mall/) It seems there is quite a bit of history on cases like this one. ---
**Author:** ![Legomancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/779978/32.png) [@Legomancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Legomancer)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/110 "2003-03-07T13:51:00Z")
I agree with Hamelt in the sense that this particular incident doesn’t, in and of itself, mean much of anything. However, I am alarmed by the growing number of “isolated incidents” such as this. Taken individually, none of them seem to be worth making a supreme amount of fuss about, but how many such different stories does one have to hear before one can say, “You know, I think there’s a disturbing trend happening.” ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/111 "2003-03-07T20:05:55Z")
Well,I guess the negative publicity finally caused the mall owner to give in to reason. It’s somewhat dissapointing in a way,I had hoped that new legislation would result with positive side effects. [http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=573&ncid=757&e=8&u=/nm/20030307/od\_nm/iraq\_usa\_shirt\_dc](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=573&ncid=757&e=8&u=/nm/20030307/od_nm/iraq_usa_shirt_dc) ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/112 "2003-03-07T20:12:32Z")
I agree \*\* Legomancer\*\* which is why I had hoped that this case would make it to the high courts. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/113 "2003-03-09T03:42:19Z")
> [@](#): > > My parents went to Iraq to be human shields and all I got was this stinking T-shirt. Mo Rocca on _Wait, Wait, Don’t Tell Me_, March 8. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/114 "2003-03-09T07:06:27Z")
The mall has fired the security guard: [http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=113433&category=REGION&newsdate=3/8/2003](http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=113433&category=REGION&newsdate=3/8/2003) > [@](#): > > Williams, who has worked in security at the mall for more than nine years, said he signed the complaint on the orders of his boss, assistant director of security Fred Tallman. Those orders came after Tallman told the Guilderland police officer working the case that he (Tallman) was too busy to come to the police station and that Williams represented the company and should sign. > > “I just followed directions of management of that mall to the letter,” Williams said Friday evening. “And I get fired for doing my job.” Can we all say “scapegoat”? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/115 "2003-03-09T15:13:05Z")
Scapegoat? Yes. But at the same time I am glad he is suffering a repercussion for what he did. Just a pity that those whose orders he followed are doling out the punishment rather than being punished themslves. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236/116 "2003-03-10T17:22:30Z")
[Crossgates has dropped the charges](http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=112620&category=REGION&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=3/6/2003). > [@](#): > > The decision to negate the arrest came Wednesday evening, after more than 100 anti-war protesters descended upon the mall wearing shirts similar to Downs’. > > Tim Kelley, who works for the Pyramid Management Group that manages Crossgates and other malls throughout New York, said local managers had called the police. > > The decision to drop the charges did not mean mall policy pertaining to inappropriate clothing had changed, he added. > > “We’ll have to address these things as they happen,” he said. > > But Downs said late Wednesday that mall officials are avoiding the central issue of free speech. > > “The fact that they dropped the charges means they don’t realize what the problem really is,” he said. > > Downs’ arrest was the first of its type at the mall, although on Dec. 21 several people wearing similar attire were asked to leave the mall. Kelley added that all protesters asked to leave must have been causing a commotion. Mall officers have since asked people wearing anti-war T-shirts to exit the premises. > > Shopping “is what (protesters) say they were doing, but that’s not what people tell us they were doing,” Kelley said. > > The 100 or so protesters met at a mall entrance at noon to support Downs, who they believe was asked to leave the mall Monday afternoon because of the message on his shirt: “Peace on Earth” on one side and “Give Peace a Chance” on the other. > > Wednesday’s march, which lasted about two hours, was relatively peaceful, although there was a minor skirmish between a protester and someone apparently opposed to the anti-war cause. No one was arrested despite the desire expressed by many that they wanted to be handcuffed for their cause. > > “This is a policy that’s not enforced equally,” said Erin O’Brien, an organizer with Women Against War and a leader of Wednesday’s protest. Her organization sold anti-war, pro-free speech shirts to protesters for $15, “$12 if you are willing to be arrested in the shirt,” according to an e-mail sent to supporters. She said she sold about 60 shirts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-that-offensive-anti-war-t-shirt-out-of-our-mall/159236.md?page=5)