# Take the A train? Try again in 2010. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 25, 2005, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-the-a-train-try-again-in-2010/286568 "2005-01-25T12:30:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-the-a-train-try-again-in-2010/286568/21 "2005-01-25T14:06:56Z")
“Homeless guy,” my Aunt Betty. Probably a transit worker catching a smoke. And don’t get me started on NJ Transit—they switched our train _four times_ last night, each time we’d get on a train and be assured by the PA Voice it was the right one, Nelson Muntz would take over the controls and send us over to Track 5—no, track 12! Track 9! If Anna Karenina took NJ Transit, she’d be alive today. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-the-a-train-try-again-in-2010/286568/22 "2005-01-25T14:12:29Z")
Wonder if this will create an opportunity to pick up some real estate in Chelsea west of 10th Ave for (relatively) cheap. Or north of Prospect Park. ---
**Author:** ![RTA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b4bc9f/32.png) [@RTA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTA)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-the-a-train-try-again-in-2010/286568/23 "2005-01-25T14:15:33Z")
If our society had the moral courage to ensure that every homeless person was guaranteed a place to be warm, perhaps all this expense and inconvenience might have been avoided. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-the-a-train-try-again-in-2010/286568/24 "2005-01-25T14:20:37Z")
And on the main fight card tonight, we have **Liberal** (“no service that isn’t paid for, in full, by the users of that service, regardless of the benefits of that service to society in general”) versus **RTA** (“society has an obligation to provide a minimum level of services to everyone”)! Place your bets, folks! ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-the-a-train-try-again-in-2010/286568/25 "2005-01-25T14:21:06Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > That doesn’t really help any of the obstacles I just mentioned, save the first. And it introduces all-new obstacles. If you decide to rebuild from scratch, and you want it to work correctly with the rest of the system, you need to understand exactly what it is you’re replacing actually did. That can be a much harder problem then simply rebuilding something. You’re still gonna need to understand the systems it interfaced with. You’re going to need to understand how the obsolete components it was composed of behaved, even moreso then if you were simply re-creating it. You’re going to need to either study the old system in detail, or reverse-engineer it based on the other control rooms. Neither of those is going to be trivial, for all the reasons I outlined in my last post. See, you’re not thinking big enough. Don’t try and figure out what the old system did - find out what you _want_ it to do and build that. Reverse engineer it based on your requirements. If you can’t interface with other systems, replace them as well. Rip out everything but the tracks if you have to. Or better - build a completely new system _paralell_ to what remains of the old system, and when it’s fone just switch it over. You know thet’re going to have to do it someday, so why not now? It’s better than fixing thing piecemeal. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-the-a-train-try-again-in-2010/286568/26 "2005-01-25T14:29:02Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Or better - build a completely new system _paralell_ to what remains of the old system, and when it’s fone just switch it over. You know thet’re going to have to do it someday, so why not now? Money. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-the-a-train-try-again-in-2010/286568/27 "2005-01-25T14:30:24Z")
> [@Early Out](#): > > And on the main fight card tonight, we have **Liberal** (“no service that isn’t paid for, in full, by the users of that service, regardless of the benefits of that service to society in general”) versus **RTA** (“society has an obligation to provide a minimum level of services to everyone”)! Place your bets, folks! Has a giant squid ever attacked the A line? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-the-a-train-try-again-in-2010/286568/28 "2005-01-25T14:32:04Z")
> [@RTA](#): > > If our society had the moral courage to ensure that every homeless person was guaranteed a place to be warm, perhaps all this expense and inconvenience might have been avoided. If wishes were fishes, we’d all be wet. There goes my “backup” train downtown. Surprisingly, only the A & C lines are affected. The 2, 3 and E lines all have a transfer point with the A & C at Chambers, but they seem unaffected. Weren’t the A, C & E all part of the same independent company in a bygone age? The NYC Subway system is antiquated. However, replacing it while still allowing the hundreds of thousands of passengers daily to get to their destinations is extraordinarily difficult and prohibitively expensive (not that Gov. Pataki cares about us NYC liberals and our transportation problems). There aren’t enough buses to pick up the slack, and the streets are already slowed to a crawl. This might be a good learning opportunity on how to upgrade the subway to last another century or so. Lastly, the C train is toast. A trains are running local and the time between trains is now 20 minutes instead of 6, due to manual switching. IMO, it’s worse for Brooklyn and Queens than upper Manhattan. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-the-a-train-try-again-in-2010/286568/29 "2005-01-25T14:33:26Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Money. Obviously. My point, though, is that the main stumbling blocks are not technical, but rgather - as you mentioned - financial. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-the-a-train-try-again-in-2010/286568/30 "2005-01-25T14:33:34Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > See, you’re not thinking big enough. Don’t try and figure out what the old system did - find out what you _want_ it to do and build that. That’s just silly. In order to replace it without understanding how the “old” system worked, you’re going to need to replace not only the burnt-out station, but also the stations that were connected to it. And since you don’t want to understand what _those_ systems do (let’s just make what we want instead!), you’re also going to have to replace what _they_ connect to, ad nauseam. We’ve gone from 3-5 years to a much longer time span and a massively larger price tag… > [@Alessan](#): > > Reverse engineer it based on your requirements. That doesn’t make any sense. You reverse engineer something to find out how it behaves. How you _want_ it to behave doesn’t enter the picture. It’s like your doctor deciding what disease you have before he examines you. > [@Alessan](#): > > If you can’t interface with other systems, replace them as well. Rip out everything but the tracks if you have to. Or better - build a completely new system _paralell_ to what remains of the old system, and when it’s fone just switch it over. You know thet’re going to have to do it someday, so why not now? It’s better than fixing thing piecemeal. Neither of those options is going to fix the “this is gonna take 3-5 years” issue. They’re both even _bigger_ in scope then fixing/replacing a single switching station. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-the-a-train-try-again-in-2010/286568/31 "2005-01-25T14:35:20Z")
> [@TwistofFate](#): > > Has a giant squid ever attacked the A line? It may happen, but only if the giant squid is coerced. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-the-a-train-try-again-in-2010/286568/32 "2005-01-25T14:35:49Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Obviously. My point, though, is that the main stumbling blocks are not technical, but rgather - as you mentioned - financial. With the exception of that which is physically impossible, from a decision-making perspective there’s little difference between “technical obstacle” and “financial obstacle” ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-the-a-train-try-again-in-2010/286568/33 "2005-01-25T14:51:54Z")
Looks like I’ll be taking the _bus_ up 8th Avenue after night class. Oh, well, it’s less crowded than the subway anyway and doesn’t take that much longer. It’s just damn cold waiting on the street these days. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-the-a-train-try-again-in-2010/286568/34 "2005-01-25T14:52:23Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Is that mental peristalsis, or do you have the knowledge and/or experience needed to make a statement like that? Aside of being a part time subway buff, and possessing the most rudimentary knowledge of the system’s signals and interlockings, not really. It’s not exactly rocket science though. The tracks are split into chunks every 300 yards or so, and are electrically insulated from each other. When any section of a train occupies a chunk of track it completes a circuit indicating the presence of a train in it. While this is going on, the signals react accordingly to the locations of the trains. IIRC the system is set up so there is at least one buffer section between trains. Now I’m no electrical engineer, but how hard can it be to make sure two things going in the same direction don’t hit each other? I think the MTA is trying to shake some money from somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-the-a-train-try-again-in-2010/286568/35 "2005-01-25T14:58:04Z")
Screwed indeed. I take the A from fucking 207th st. to Chambers every day. I don’t think you heard me. I take the A from fucking 207th st. to Chambers every day! This state of the world agrees with me not at all. Sure, I’ll switch to the 1/9, but in upper Manhattan, so will everyone else. Because of course, the ultra-wide IRT can handle plenty more people during rush hour. I think it’s time to go virtual for the next few years. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-the-a-train-try-again-in-2010/286568/36 "2005-01-25T15:02:32Z")
Hell the MTA has been trying to shake money from everywhere it can for decades. And understandably so, since it is the preferred way to get around this town. But it’s still fucking insane to say a train line will be shut down for 5 years because a switching station is gone. Shit, Bombardier just built a computerized, driverless system out in Queens-- bring them back to build a patch over this station, and maybe start figuring out what to do to make sure the other few hundred relay points don’t go up in smoke. I rarely take the A or C, but that kind of timeline for repairs is completely unacceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-the-a-train-try-again-in-2010/286568/37 "2005-01-25T15:11:44Z")
Maeglin, now is the time to buy yourself a bike and take advantage of the Hudson river bike path. If you feel like bicycling the length of Manhattan twice a day… You’ll die, but you’ll end up with great legs 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-the-a-train-try-again-in-2010/286568/38 "2005-01-25T15:13:59Z")
> [@Barbarian](#): > > Maeglin, now is the time to buy yourself a bike and take advantage of the Hudson river bike path. If you feel like bicycling the length of Manhattan twice a day… > > You’ll die, but you’ll end up with great legs 😉 That’s a great idea. If, of course, my company doesn’t mind me getting to work at 11 and leaving after lunch. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-the-a-train-try-again-in-2010/286568/39 "2005-01-25T15:20:52Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Screwed indeed. I take the A from fucking 207th st. to Chambers every day. > > I don’t think you heard me. > > I take the A from fucking 207th st. to Chambers every day! Ugh I feel your pain. I have to go up to 168 st today from Bway Nassau, and I’m adding an extra hour to the trip. Man this is going to suck. ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-the-a-train-try-again-in-2010/286568/40 "2005-01-25T15:34:30Z")
I don’t think they have any idea what connected to what in that closet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-the-a-train-try-again-in-2010/286568.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-the-a-train-try-again-in-2010/286568.md?page=3)