# Take this, you sinner bashing bastards! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 9, 2003, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-this-you-sinner-bashing-bastards/147531 "2003-01-09T15:37:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-this-you-sinner-bashing-bastards/147531/81 "2003-01-13T23:20:56Z")
**Vanilla** , as you may have gathered I was somewhat cranky this morning. We also pulled off a simulpost earlier – I didn’t see your reply before I typed my countercite. I actually rather like the tale of the ten lepers because to me it shows Christ in a particularly human moment, wondering why only one person thought to thank him or appreciate him. He made all ten ritually clean, and I’ve been trying to work out the difference between ritually clean and healed with no success. Since Bible Gateway notes that the word translated as “leprosy” actually referred to a variety of skin diseases, maybe it was acne, and the other nine’s acne came back?😉 That’s entirely meant as a joke; this is something I’m going to have to think about some more. John 9:1-34 tells of Jesus’ encounter with a man who was blind since birth. His disciples asked Him who had sinned, the man or his parents, because, I understand, handicaps were believed to be the result of sin. Jesus said "Neither this man nor his parents sinned,but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. " He then heals the blind man and sends him on his way. The blind man then proceeds to get in a bit of trouble with the Pharisees, as do his parents, because they didn’t understand how a man so sinful he was blind could possibly be the recipient of a miracle. The Pharisees also conclude Jesus must be a sinner. The story concludes with the blind man saying, > [@](#): > > “Now that is remarkable! You don’t know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will. Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.” > > To this [the Pharisees] replied, “You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!” And they threw him out. I don’t see anything here which indicates the blind man was repentant, and there’s quite a bit of dispute about how sinful he was. If anything, he sounds proud he was healed. As Christians, I believe we are required to repent of our sins as soon after we commit them as possible. I prefer formally acknowledging them to God, not because He doesn’t know about them, but because by acknowledging them to God, I also acknowledge them to myself. Otherwise, it’s too easy to fall into the trap of “Who me? I haven’t done anything wrong. At least, not recently.” Off hand, I can’t think of anything in the Gospels which states outright that someone repented after Christ healed him, but that could also be due to my particular focus. Like I said, I did remember the ten lepers and the man blind since birth, but I didn’t remember that correctly – I thought it was the Pharisees who asked Christ who sinned (thank you [www.biblegateway.com](http://www.biblegateway.com)!). To me, who does or does not gain salvation is riddled with paradoxes. In the end, I hold two separate, contradictory beliefs. First, as a Christian I am assured a place in heaven. Second, every time I condemn someone to hell, even if it’s in thought alone, I come that much closer to condemning myself. Certainly, even if I can’t damn myself out of heaven, I do damage my own soul. As I’ve said many times on this Board and will probably continue to do so, it is not my place to judge. I don’t pretend to be an expert on the Bible, but I know what I believe I have been taught by God to believe. If I am foolishly stubborn at times, well, it’s the way He made me, and I wouldn’t be surprised to find out God, Himself, has sighed at my persistent willfulness. Still, I will help, guide, and correct when I have to, but I will condemn no man. I’m glad God knows what he’s doing, because I sure don’t! CJ ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-this-you-sinner-bashing-bastards/147531/82 "2003-01-14T01:11:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > \*\*Do you know what the book was about or who it was to, or did you just do a search on love? \*\*I did know, thanks! 33 years as a (former) Southern Baptist, and you can bet your bippy I know my Bible. 🙂 > [@](#): > > John is writing to various **churches**. Johns was providing direction for those **Christians** … Indeed - The New Testament is comprised of many letters from one apostle or another as instruction to various churches - does that mean non believers may disregard the proscriptions and prescriptions contained therein? > [@](#): > > Now that you know a little about what John was writing about and **who** he was writing to, what is you take on it (without changing anything)? You said it better than I could, **Jersey** - _God is love and love one another_. Why change a thing? IMHO, a suitable directive for all to follow, yes? ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-this-you-sinner-bashing-bastards/147531/83 "2003-01-14T07:45:54Z")
Yes, God is love and love one another! He gives us every chance in the world to follow Him. The point is, the letter written by John, was to believers. You took a verse out of that particular book, and I don’t look at just the verse, I look at everything around it. I think there are many non believers that like\* some of the passages\* in the Bible. They follow it, (not because it’s from the bible), but because humans love. That is fine to a certain extent. The problem here is ( _it is not hard to **love the world or worldly things, or worldy people,** _) that is easy. Overall, yes, it is a good passage to follow, but John is talking specifically to Believers, period… Why change anything, you ask? Because loving the world and worldly things will not save you! 33 years, eh?! ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-this-you-sinner-bashing-bastards/147531/84 "2003-01-14T10:34:54Z")
(Apologies to Fenris) **Jersey** : …sexual immorality, witchcraft, gluttony… these are sins! **Jesus** : Jersey… **Jersey** : …God’s love is not in you if you don’t believe… **Jesus** : Jersey… **Jersey** : …John ain’t talking to heathens, he’s talking to us!.. **Jesus** : Um, Jersey… **Jersey** : …the message of love is for believers, not unbelievers!.. **Jesus** : Jersey, If I could just… **Jersey** : …we’re not supposed to love worldly people unless they’re our enemies, I guess… **Jesus** : Jersey, I want you to… **Jersey** : …God is speaking to us, not to them. See? The Bible says so… **Jesus** : Jersey… **Jersey** : …nonbelievers like parts of the Bible, sure!.. **Jesus** : Jersey, please hear me… **Jersey** : …but nonbelievers don’t hear the voice of God!.. **Jesus** : [sigh] **Jersey** : …I hear God’s voice because I believe!.. **Jesus** : [turning to the others] I am hosting a big feast. Would any of you like to come? **Jersey** : [watching everyone walk away] …You see! I’m right! All of you are turning from the word of God!.. [shaking his Bible at them] …Go ahead! Run away! I wipe your dust off my feet! [Everyone is gone now] **Jersey** : Jesus? Jesus, you there? Earth to Jesus… ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-this-you-sinner-bashing-bastards/147531/85 "2003-01-14T11:39:12Z")
Lib, when did you become Jesus? :rolleyes: great argument, by the way… _shakes head_ ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-this-you-sinner-bashing-bastards/147531/86 "2003-01-14T11:46:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* So that’s the best response you have? Talk about weak and pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-this-you-sinner-bashing-bastards/147531/87 "2003-01-14T11:53:39Z")
Also, Lib, do not put words in my mouth! I will continue to refute any lies you preach, and you can continue to tell people that you love, and most likely they will believe you. Like the Word of God says, " there will be many **false teachers**" Jude 1:19— These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. _those who know God, recognize those who speak the truth of God_ _Jude 1:22-23_ Be merciful to those who doubt; {23} snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear–hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh. I am not going to do this anymore with you. I do not worship love as you do, so there is nothing more to say. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-this-you-sinner-bashing-bastards/147531/88 "2003-01-14T12:09:31Z")
Jersey wrote: > [@](#): > > I will continue to refute any lies you preach, and you can continue to tell people that you love, and most likely they will believe you. I’ve never told anyone that I love. On the contrary, I’ve told people plainly that my moral journey is to learn how to love. I have quite a ways to go. > [@](#): > > I do not worship love as you do, so there is nothing more to say. God go with you, Jersey. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-this-you-sinner-bashing-bastards/147531/89 "2003-01-14T15:00:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Overall, yes, it is a good passage to follow, but John is talking specifically to Believers, period… How sad to hear a Christian claim that we’re only supposed to love believers. ☹ I wasn’t aware, Jersey, that there were parts of the Bible that only believers could read. I have to give you and Joe\_Cool a hand, though. You make me want to be a better Christian, and to show Christ’s love more thoroughly, if only to cancel you out. ---
**Author:** ![Fatwater\_Fewl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4491bb/32.png) [@Fatwater\_Fewl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fatwater_Fewl)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-this-you-sinner-bashing-bastards/147531/90 "2003-01-14T15:23:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Count Trari de Reeson \* > \*\*I was taking the broader view that the heaven in the story was a metaphor for a life well lived. I did not realize that we were to take it literally. If you guys are arguing over how to get into a place that I don’t believe exists, then I must bow out. I do not accept however that unrepentant thieves, drunks and adulators belong grouped with gays, Muslims and atheists. I understand that the point of the op was “everybody’s beautiful in their own way” but this sentiment is both false and trite. \*\* From my point of view, the OP’s point was that we’re all human, all just bozos on the bus. No one of us better than any other. I have yet to find anyone in this world that I can not learn something from – _if_ I’m willing to put aside my preconceived notions and assumptions, my resentments and grudges, my pride. Call that false and trite, if you like. I have done the same in the past. I might do the same today or tomorrow. But it will not negate the moments of epiphany and joy I (as an agnostic) have felt when I have managed to put myself to one side and been able to forgive and listen and comfort. I don’t even like saying this because even as I type there are hard places in my heart which I fear that this post may be softening ever so slightly. I feel them, and today I am not willing to have them soften. There are people I don’t _want_ to forgive. I know how hate feels. And it ain’t pretty. So I carry on, and do my damndest not to act on that hate in word or deed. Because in the larger scheme of things, whether you want to speak of that as humanity as a whole or as something _other_, I am – as much as it eats at my pride to say so – no better than anyone I might hate, or who might hate me. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-this-you-sinner-bashing-bastards/147531/91 "2003-01-14T16:34:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > \*\*I do not worship love as you do, so there is nothing more to say. \*\* > [@](#): > > _1 John 4:8_ > He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. You are right. 'Nuff said. ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-this-you-sinner-bashing-bastards/147531/92 "2003-01-14T18:59:04Z")
\ Now, Homebrew, that passage was written to Christians only, so you’re not supposed to be reading that. Besides, as we all know, the first and most important duty of a Chrisitian is to point out the sins of others. I know; Oswald Chambers told me so. You godless heathens need to get over this notion you seem to have picked up that God Is Love; you can’t understand it because you’re not One Of Us. And you’re not supposed to read the parts of the Bible that might explain it; they weren’t addressed to you, so it’s really none of your business. All the parts of the Bible that talk about your horrible sin and the torments of Hell - they were addressed to you. Read up on them, and be very afraid. I’m just telling you the truth; I won’t lie to you; I love you too much to lie. The truth is - you’re in terrible danger of the Loving God torturing you for all eternity. Get with the program, sinner. By the way, I love you. All the parts of the Bible that talk about Love - sorry, that’s for us Christians only. It’s a Christian thing, you really wouldn’t understand. \ This thread has made me **fucking physically ill**. No offense to the OP - I can’t imagine you could have predicted the response from certain followers of selected parts of the written word of God. There is to be absolutely no discussion of the Love and Mercy of God on these boards, apparently, without a small camp of Bible-worshippers coming in to talk about Sin and Hell. Well, thanks, Jersey and Joe, for trying to keep us sinners on the straight and narrow. Oops, that was sarcastic too. I don’t thank you; I resent you. You throw cold water on EVERY SINGLE DISCUSSION that gets too loving. Gotta keep the focus on Sin and Damnation, it seems. Well I’m fucking sick of it. Why don’t you two have your own threads about how much God hates everybody, and leave the rest of us alone for a while? Oh, I know - it’s because you LOVE us too much to lie to us. Would it be possible to love us for a little while by leaving us the fuck alone? As a special favor? Next time you see a thread about Love, can you refrain from coming in and reminding us about Hate and Torture and Hell and Death? Pretty-please? It’s not your duty to stamp out all apostasy on these boards, and it’s not possible. Please, just go away. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-this-you-sinner-bashing-bastards/147531/93 "2003-01-14T19:13:03Z")
Interestingly, Masonite, they never posted in the thread called [Love](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=154914). Maybe the title was too repugnant. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-this-you-sinner-bashing-bastards/147531/94 "2003-01-14T19:18:08Z")
Also, this… > [@](#): > > The truth is - you’re in terrible danger of the Loving God torturing you for all eternity. Get with the program, sinner. By the way, I love you. …reminded me of that famous scene from _Misery_! She breaks his foot with a two-by-four, looks at him lustily, and sighs, “God, I love you!” ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-this-you-sinner-bashing-bastards/147531/95 "2003-01-14T19:44:48Z")
**Lib** , I never posted in that thread either, because frankly, you talk WAY over my head sometimes! I’m just not smart enough to hang in threads like that. I wouldn’t hold it against anyone for avoiding any particular thread. Jersey, Joe: already I’m feeling bad for losing my temper and snapping at you. Please forgive me for that. But please also take my mangled message to heart: you talk about hell ALL THE TIME, and it’s starting to look like an obsession. If anybody is being Loving, you come in and try to break it up. I question your motivation. Peace. I’m sorry I was angry, and if we discuss these things, I’ll try to control my anger. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-this-you-sinner-bashing-bastards/147531/96 "2003-01-14T20:04:43Z")
Love is a simple thing. It’s just the River of Goodness. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-this-you-sinner-bashing-bastards/147531/97 "2003-01-14T20:44:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by masonite \* > Jersey, Joe: already I’m feeling bad for losing my temper and snapping at you. Please forgive me for that. But please also take my mangled message to heart: you talk about hell ALL THE TIME, and it’s starting to look like an obsession. If anybody is being Loving, you come in and try to break it up. I question your motivation. > > Peace. I’m sorry I was angry, and if we discuss these things, I’ll try to control my anger. Don’t feel bad! This is part of what a messageboard is about. Telling people what you think. I don’t take offense. The only reason we talk about Hell, is because people ask what we believe about it, and when we reply, we get ambushed. Not a big deal though. I come to expect it, ya know?! _The bottom line is, we only talk about Hell when asked._ Remember the movie Poltergeist? Remember when that _loving_ guy, (the devil) was trying to show the _light_ (mislead them) to all those unknowing people? “Come into the light” I could not stand by and watch that happen without doing something. (it may not make a huge difference, but at least I tried) I know it seems like I am raining on a happy parade, but that is not the case. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-this-you-sinner-bashing-bastards/147531/98 "2003-01-14T20:57:40Z")
I’d just like to point out for those of you who are not scoring at home that **His4ever** has yet to show up in this thread. Whether it’s because she’s taking a break from the boards/pit or because she’s taking the advice many of us gave, she isn’t here. [sub]She’s evolving … watch out.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-this-you-sinner-bashing-bastards/147531/99 "2003-01-14T20:59:17Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by JerseyDiamond > The bottom line is, we only talk about Hell when asked._ Please provide a cite from **this** thread where your opinions on Hell were requested? Yet, here you are posting in it. ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-this-you-sinner-bashing-bastards/147531/100 "2003-01-14T21:43:52Z")
Jersey, you are gracious; thank you. Sure, the devil can disguise himself as an angel of light. But I get the impression sometimes that “you guys” think that every Christian on this board who is NOT always talking about sin, and God’s wrath, is that false angel of light. You act like you’re filling in the gaps left by people like Libertarian, Polycarp, Triskadekamus. They talk about Love and rarely mention sin/wrath/hell/damnation; you have a tendency to pipe up with the “other side of the story” as though all this talk about Love is mere half-truths. In your view, you supply the Full Truth, which has a heavy emphasis on Sin and Hell. In my view, you’re unsatisfied if somebody, somewhere, isn’t quaking with fear of Hell, and you’re quicker to supply that fear - or try to - than you are at supplying any more concrete form of Love. It’s as though “Love” means, to you, “God, and Hell, and Sin, and Keeping the Law, and Walking in Righteousness”. You want to talk about the scary stuff that happens to the wicked; others are too busy talking about God. I’m avoiding picking on H4E because she’s not in this thread, but she said, not too long ago, that discussion about Love is well taken care of by others; since there’s not enough discussion of Sin, she feels it’s her duty to always bring up the other side of the story. MAYBE, just maybe, the Bible-believing camp knows something about Hell and wrath and damnation that Polycarp, etc. do not know about. MAYBE their omission in some measure justifies your amendment. But do you not see the result? We have one group of people who talk about nothing but Love. Another group talks about nothing but Sin. Both might be in error - in fact, both are GUARANTEED to be in some error, being short of the perfection of God. But which method is more pleasing to God? Which method results in more souls coming to the Lord? What motivates “the Polycarp crew” and what motivates you? (I don’t know the answer to these questions, but I think they deserve asking.) I believe God convicts people of sin in their hearts. I believe he doesn’t need deputies to help him do this. Just my opinion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-this-you-sinner-bashing-bastards/147531.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-this-you-sinner-bashing-bastards/147531.md?page=6)