# Take you opinion, your skepticism, and your tragic excuse for reason and shove em. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 9, 2009, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-you-opinion-your-skepticism-and-your-tragic-excuse-for-reason-and-shove-em/499187 "2009-06-09T05:12:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-you-opinion-your-skepticism-and-your-tragic-excuse-for-reason-and-shove-em/499187/241 "2009-06-14T21:09:21Z")
> [@neuroman](#): > > Made up bullshit provides no fruitful basis for debate. > > False/unproven/hypothetical scenarios can be useful as a talking point, sure, but they need to be plausible. The problem with YOUR story is that it was improbable, as **astro** carefully explained above. > > Real stories of course, need not be “plausible,” as truth is stranger than fiction at times. Your story isn’t verifiably real, and yes Veronica, that matters. I’m asking someone to explain **why** in this case, it matters rather than just repeat an assertion.Demonstrate through reasoning or example why a story can’t make a point if it’s false. See, I think even though I think it’s based in fact and lots of posters don’t it still makes the point I was trying to make just as a false/unproven/hypothetical/ scenario might and you just agreed can. If I had offered it as _proof_ of a certain point that’s one thing. I didn’t. I offered it as an example of a simple and fairly obvious point. I think in the original thread the truthfulness of the story didn’t matter, and the point I was trying to provide an example for could have been discussed on it’s merits regardless of what anyone believed about the story itself. I’ve already simplified the story to to demonstrate how it might work as a hypothetical. The story remains the same with even fewer details. I purposely left out the details that people seemed to think were the most bizarre While I agree that my story is improbable we started in a category that was already very improbable. From there I think people got hung up on details and/or the lack of detail and were bothered {for some reason} by the fact I trusted my source even though I didn’t expect them to. I understand that it matters if we consider the distraction factor but the statement that a false story can’t make a point is incorrect IMO. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-you-opinion-your-skepticism-and-your-tragic-excuse-for-reason-and-shove-em/499187/242 "2009-06-14T21:10:25Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > The voices in my head say yes. The ones in your head are reliable. Don’t listen to the dog though. He’s disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![MysteryFellow63427](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e4f/32.png) [@MysteryFellow63427](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MysteryFellow63427)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-you-opinion-your-skepticism-and-your-tragic-excuse-for-reason-and-shove-em/499187/243 "2009-06-14T23:18:50Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I’m asking someone to explain **why** in this case, it matters rather than just repeat an assertion. Demonstrate through reasoning or example why a story can’t make a point if it’s false. If you don’t understand this I’m not sure I can explain it. But basically, a highly improbable hypothetical is generally pointless to debate because you’re far enough removed from reality that there is little or no value to the discussion. You’re simply wasting your breath. E.g., if we’re having a debate on how many customers a carhop at Sonic could serve in an hour, it would not be fruitful to ask how liquid propane power rocket skates might speed service. Apples, oranges, whatever, I hope you get the point. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-you-opinion-your-skepticism-and-your-tragic-excuse-for-reason-and-shove-em/499187/244 "2009-06-15T01:13:39Z")
> [@neuroman](#): > > If you don’t understand this I’m not sure I can explain it. But basically, a highly improbable hypothetical is generally pointless to debate because you’re far enough removed from reality that there is little or no value to the discussion. You’re simply wasting your breath. > > E.g., if we’re having a debate on how many customers a carhop at Sonic could serve in an hour, it would not be fruitful to ask how liquid propane power rocket skates might speed service. Apples, oranges, whatever, I hope you get the point. I’m thinking nobody can explain it cause it ain’t so. I understand the apples and oranges thing that your example demonstrates. That wasn’t the case. Both the topic of discussion, a true story, and my story, were about civilians shooting it out with armed robbers. Both had outrageous details. How is that apples and oranges? Not only that the point made by several is not if it’s to outrageous it can’t make the point. Their claim is that if it isn’t true it can’t make a legitimate point [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11225320&postcount=33) [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11225845&postcount=46) post 212 > [@](#): > > It’s crucial to it, as I have said numerous times, only to hear nothing but crickets chirping from you. I’ll try again. If you and I are are having a disagreement, and you get to make up a story to prove your point, then I do to, etc, etc. etc. An imaginary story has no value. and 213 > [@](#): > > It totally does matter if cosmos’s story is fiction or not. I can make up anything to support any point. How dumb are you to not understand that? So any of those posters are invited to explain why this is true. Why can’t a fictitious story be an example of a point being made just as fables and religious myth do? ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-you-opinion-your-skepticism-and-your-tragic-excuse-for-reason-and-shove-em/499187/245 "2009-06-15T01:58:35Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I’m not sure how much you’ve read but you clearly missed the several times when I said I didn’t expect anyone to accept it as true unquestioningly. > What annoyed me and now intrigues me is people making assumptions about a short tale with very few details and thinking their assumptions and lousy reasoning was somehow logical and reasonable. > > I know on a message board and in real life people tell tall tales. If I read or hear something outrageous my reflex is to acknowledge that it may or may not be true. Outrageous things do happen and sometimes truth is stranger than fiction so while I retain a healthy skepticism with outrageous stories. I acknowledge that “it’s possible” I find an “unlikely but possible” stance much more reasonable than a knee jerk dismissal based on very few details. > > Personal integrity and veracity? Someone else said that and it demonstrates another intriguing form of flawed thinking. How exactly have I merged my personal veracity and integrity with it? I said a trusted friend told me this story as true? That’s a fact. That’s exactly how I presented it. A story I was told. I acknowledged people’s skepticism as completely understandable. I acknowledged that it might be embellished and I couldn’t be exactly sure how or if it happened. I only claimed I tended to believe it’s based in fact because I trust my source. That’s also true and completely reasonable. So please tell me exactly how I have harmed my integrity and veracity with it? Please explain in reasonable terms or have the integrity and veracity to admit your thinking is flawed and you’re wrong. > . Re your “investment” I suppose I’m puzzled by the level and tenacity of your outrage in that you appear to be taking it quite personally that reasonable people would contend with, and summarily dismiss, an assertion that comes across, by and large, as a steaming pile. Certainly anything is possible. I used the “Henry Kissinger signed my birth certificate” assertion as an example of something that sounds improbable, but is true (I was a foreign service brat) . You are not a fool, nor are you particularly credulous. The story you related is improbable to the point of idiocy. To be frank the tenor of your continued defense of this “story” as it moves from a “trusted” FOAF story to some sort of hypothetical gedanken tug of war between the rational and the fabulous makes me think that this is less about the narrow mindedness of incredulous dopers and more of “dance puppets dance” game you are playing at this point. ---
**Author:** ![MysteryFellow63427](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e4f/32.png) [@MysteryFellow63427](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MysteryFellow63427)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-you-opinion-your-skepticism-and-your-tragic-excuse-for-reason-and-shove-em/499187/246 "2009-06-15T02:53:24Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I’m thinking nobody can explain it cause it ain’t so. Well either we’re all wrong and you’re right, or you’re unfathomably obtuse. I’ll leave it as an exercise for the reader to deduce my opinion on the subject. Good night. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-you-opinion-your-skepticism-and-your-tragic-excuse-for-reason-and-shove-em/499187/247 "2009-06-15T03:34:54Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Re your “investment” I suppose I’m puzzled by the level and tenacity of your outrage in that you appear to be taking it quite personally that reasonable people would contend with, and summarily dismiss, an assertion that comes across, by and large, as a steaming pile. Certainly anything is possible. I used the “Henry Kissinger signed my birth certificate” assertion as an example of something that sounds improbable, but is true (I was a foreign service brat) . And I’m puzzled by posts like this that demonstrate the improbable is sometimes true and then wonder at my attitude. People could easily doubt your claim about your birth certificate but it would be true {assuming you’re telling the truth} Another poster said > [@](#): > > There are probably tons of “perp doesn’t get shot, does something tragic, civilian regrets not shooting” news stories out there you could have looked for and used to make the same point. If you can’t be bothered to look for them, don’t expect us to bother believing your citeless story on good faith. and my point was > [@](#): > > It’s the fact that there are probably tons of real outrageous stories out there that makes the excessive criticism surprise me. My outrage, {pretty much over now} is not that reasonable people would disbelieve my story. I’ve said several times I get that. My outrage is the bullshit excuse for sound reasoning that accompanied it and the continued support of that faulty reasoning. Since then I’ve been puzzled by several phenomenon and thought processes that I’ve observed and mentioned. Here again in these last few posts , I’ve asked posters to defend a point they asserted as fact that I find false. We’ll see if they can. > [@](#): > > You are not a fool, nor are you particularly credulous. The story you related is improbable to the point of idiocy. It doesn’t seem reasonable for people to judge an outrageous story in a category filled with outrageous stories as idiotic. If it’s possible it’s not idiotic, just improbable. I claimed that outrageous things happened to real people in an extraordinary event we know actually takes place with real people. I’ve admitted certain details may well be embellishment. How unreasonable is for me to trust a friend who’s character I know and believe the story is based largely in fact? > [@](#): > > To be frank the tenor of your continued defense of this “story” as it moves from a “trusted” FOAF story to some sort of hypothetical gedanken tug of war between the rational and the fabulous makes me think that this is less about the narrow mindedness of incredulous dopers and more of “dance puppets dance” game you are playing at this point. There it is again. I haven’t been\* defending the story\* for some time but for some reason posters keep insisting I am. That’s one of the interesting phenomenon’s I keep talking about. What I’ve been discussing is reason, and the lines between skepticism and dismissal. What I’ve questioned is poster’s odd thinking that the story doesn’t seem reasonable to them when the story is about a subject where reason and rationality shouldn’t even be expected. I’ve been puzzled at people thinking my integrity is somehow in question when I’ve done nothing to impugn it at all. How is that missed so consistently? There is no puppet game going on. I’ve only responded to other posters. As the thread has gone on the things I’ve noticed have drawn me back for reasons that have changed. I don’t actually expect posters to respond to my invitation. I don’t think they can reasonably defend their position so rather than admit an error they’ll opt to ignore it. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-you-opinion-your-skepticism-and-your-tragic-excuse-for-reason-and-shove-em/499187/248 "2009-06-15T03:40:05Z")
> [@neuroman](#): > > Well either we’re all wrong and you’re right, or you’re unfathomably obtuse. I’ll leave it as an exercise for the reader to deduce my opinion on the subject. Good night. We do realize that several people making the same assertion isn’t actual evidence or reasoning don’t we? Ask the atheist posters about this principle. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-you-opinion-your-skepticism-and-your-tragic-excuse-for-reason-and-shove-em/499187/249 "2009-06-15T09:55:20Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > If you think it illustrates a point have at it. Sarcasm without content won’t cut it though. Okay. A perp kills a cop with his bare hands while fleeing the scene of a crime. Another cop tracks him all the way to a town somewhere in Central America but before he can put the arm on him, an earthquake strikes. The local orphanage is on the point of collapse but the perp, who is a remarkably strong guy, gets himself into the doorway and braces up the lintel for long enough for the nuns and kids to crawl out between his legs. There’s no way out for him though as no-one can get anything in to take the load off his shoulders without the whole pile coming down. He has time to tell the cop that chased him that he’s sorry for the other cop he killed as he didn’t mean to hit him that hard, and he knew what he was getting into when he stepped into the doorway. A minute or so later another tremor puts paid to the orphanage and him. Now put yourself in the position of someone who could have dropped the perp fleeing the cop-killing. If you’d ventilated him then, a whole orphanage full of nuns and kids would have died. Moral? (Story above isn’t mine, it’s one of Damon Runyon’s.) ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-you-opinion-your-skepticism-and-your-tragic-excuse-for-reason-and-shove-em/499187/250 "2009-06-15T11:16:19Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Okay. A perp kills a cop with his bare hands while fleeing the scene of a crime. Another cop tracks him all the way to a town somewhere in Central America but before he can put the arm on him, an earthquake strikes. The local orphanage is on the point of collapse but the perp, who is a remarkably strong guy, gets himself into the doorway and braces up the lintel for long enough for the nuns and kids to crawl out between his legs. There’s no way out for him though as no-one can get anything in to take the load off his shoulders without the whole pile coming down. He has time to tell the cop that chased him that he’s sorry for the other cop he killed as he didn’t mean to hit him that hard, and he knew what he was getting into when he stepped into the doorway. A minute or so later another tremor puts paid to the orphanage and him. > > Now put yourself in the position of someone who could have dropped the perp fleeing the cop-killing. If you’d ventilated him then, a whole orphanage full of nuns and kids would have died. Moral? > > (Story above isn’t mine, it’s one of Damon Runyon’s.) I’m not sure. Was one of them a dancer on Broadway? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-you-opinion-your-skepticism-and-your-tragic-excuse-for-reason-and-shove-em/499187/251 "2009-06-15T11:37:30Z")
The nuns? Don’t think so. The orphans? Unlikely. The perp? No, just a petty crim nicknamed “Earthquake”. And the (pursuing, not slain) cop was Brannigan the tough cop, who turns up in a number of stories. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-you-opinion-your-skepticism-and-your-tragic-excuse-for-reason-and-shove-em/499187/252 "2009-06-15T11:42:04Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I’m not sure. Was one of them a dancer on Broadway? And yet you wonder at our attitude concerning _your_ tall tale? Amazing. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-you-opinion-your-skepticism-and-your-tragic-excuse-for-reason-and-shove-em/499187/253 "2009-06-15T11:50:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And yet you wonder at our attitude concerning _your_ tall tale? > Amazing. Sigh! No I don’t. What amazes me is after I’ve said that several times posters still make this type of comment. {shrug} Oh well. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-you-opinion-your-skepticism-and-your-tragic-excuse-for-reason-and-shove-em/499187/254 "2009-06-15T11:53:43Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > The nuns? Don’t think so. The orphans? Unlikely. The perp? No, just a petty crim nicknamed “Earthquake”. And the (pursuing, not slain) cop was Brannigan the tough cop, who turns up in a number of stories. 🙂 I don’t know. Seems to me I remember Brannigan dancing a bit as he pursued a suspect through the dingy back alleys of NYC. Ya see, he had an audition the next day. He cried “Halt or I’ll shoot” step 2 3 ball change 2,3,4." 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-you-opinion-your-skepticism-and-your-tragic-excuse-for-reason-and-shove-em/499187.md?page=12)