# take your broad brush and shove it (a defense of Greek Life) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 28, 2007, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-broad-brush-and-shove-it-a-defense-of-greek-life/394005 "2007-02-28T09:45:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Nawth\_Chucka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nawth\_Chucka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nawth_Chucka)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2007, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-broad-brush-and-shove-it-a-defense-of-greek-life/394005/61 "2007-02-28T20:03:05Z")
[QUOTE=whole bean] Apparently you’re not familiar with the conversational tone these boards can take on. What that I wrote was sexist? How am I dialing anything back if I respond to an insult in kind? And I do think _blahblahblahblah_. [/QUOTE] (Blahs are added by me.) I said [sexist](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sexist) because ‘hoary bitch’ is an insult that refers to someone’s gender, in this case a female. You assume too much about my familiarity with these boards, but I’m happy in my knowledge that I don’t need to debate that with you. ‘Dialing back’ is what you did when you went from referring to Jodi as a ‘hoary bitch’ to asking her to ‘dispute the statement’. She never referred to your gender in a negative way, hence not ‘in kind’. I guess I could just follow behind Jodi saying, “Yes, that’s exactly what I think!”, right down to rolling my eyes at your typos after touting a group’s _‘grade requirements’_. I hope that should you be chosen for the vestry honor at your church, you’ll use ‘bitch’ less when disagreeing with a woman? ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2007, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-broad-brush-and-shove-it-a-defense-of-greek-life/394005/62 "2007-02-28T20:08:47Z")
[QUOTE=Nawth Chucka] (Blahs are added by me.) I hope that should you be chosen for the vestry honor at your church, you’ll use ‘bitch’ less when disagreeing with a woman? [/QUOTE] noted ---
**Author:** ![enigm4tic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@enigm4tic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enigm4tic)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2007, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-broad-brush-and-shove-it-a-defense-of-greek-life/394005/63 "2007-02-28T20:13:26Z")
> [@](#): > > However, when people raise examples of good behavior and community service, it seems they are viewed as exceptions, or nothing special compared to what other organizations do. +1, I agree completely > [@](#): > > I suspect that the ‘wild parties’ reputation has a bit more basis in fact than you’d like to admit, but I’m not going to claim it’s all that GLOs do or represent. I never said we didn’t have wild parties, we do. Woohoo. College students drink, also I hear the Earth is a sphere, not flat. So fraternities provide a framework where drinking takes place. We’re actually probably safer than you’d like to admit. Countless times people have been cut off, or when we didn’t realize how far they’d gone, appropriately taken care of (yeah sure, we wrote on 'em with sharpie too, but that’s what you get for not handling you liquor, makes ya less like to do it in the future 😃 and it’s a good laugh all around), we stop people from driving drunk who without a bunch of brothers around to smack them probably would have gone right ahead and done so. We have a vested interest in keeping our brothers safe, both for fraternal and insurance reasons, and have carefully set up security at many of our larger parties and all official social functions to keep people safe. > [@](#): > > But don’t try to minimize the actions of the DZ national HQ, when the reports we have show they were the ones behind the attempt to “revitalize” the chapter at DePauw. That first bullet point of yours has me already taking anything else you might say with a huge grain of salt. Sorry, perhaps I didn’t read the article with as much insight as I should have. FWIW the DZ chapter here, if the national HQ was that bad, would lose several of their most valued members on that criterion and I see nothing happening to them. As to “taking my words with a grain of salt” I’m not sure how my limited knowledge of an action on DePauw’s campus really affects my rather extensive knowledge (including other campuses where I have Greek friends) of exactly what individual Greek chapters do positively. Oh, to put the above numbers about minorities in my chapter, we have around 80 active members, giving us an approximately 10% minority rate. Also as noted above, we’ve bidded more minorities, many of whom didn’t accept for one reason or another. on another note about discrimation and whatnot, at least 1 of our black members rushed us AFTER rushing the black fraternities and deciding he didn’t agree with their ideals and mannerisms. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2007, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-broad-brush-and-shove-it-a-defense-of-greek-life/394005/64 "2007-02-28T20:17:05Z")
[QUOTE=Nawth Chucka] (Blahs are added by me.) I said [sexist](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sexist) because ‘hoary bitch’ is an insult that refers to someone’s gender, in this case a female. You assume too much about my familiarity with these boards, but I’m happy in my knowledge that I don’t need to debate that with you. ‘Dialing back’ is what you did when you went from referring to Jodi as a ‘hoary bitch’ to asking her to ‘dispute the statement’. She never referred to your gender in a negative way, hence not ‘in kind’. I guess I could just follow behind Jodi saying, “Yes, that’s exactly what I think!”, right down to rolling my eyes at your typos after touting a group’s _‘grade requirements’_. I hope that should you be chosen for the vestry honor at your church, you’ll use ‘bitch’ less when disagreeing with a woman? [/QUOTE] I was too late to edit my last response. “Bitch” was intended as a generic insult offered in retort. I’d never considered the “sexist” connotations and can’t say that I agree with it as being sexist (gendered, maybe – is bastard sexist?), but if it’s perceived that way, even by some, then that’s all that counts. I can’t say it was one of my finer moments, but it is over. I should probably cool off before replying. I resented the personal insult (making fun of my professional achievements is much more personal than any generic expletive) when I was simply trying to post in response to statements that Greek members weren’t active on campus in leadership roles and that Greeks were somehow worthless or even worse, liabilities. Not thatn it will do nmuch good, now. But I am sorry for writing it. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2007, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-broad-brush-and-shove-it-a-defense-of-greek-life/394005/65 "2007-02-28T20:30:26Z")
[QUOTE=enigm4tic] For the example at hand, Kappa Alpha was presumably originally founded by a bunch of guys who like old southern ideals, some of which are positive and they actually uphold very well (the KAs I know are quite chivalrous and respectful of women, and are generally polite), buy saying they discriminate against blacks because none join is like saying the NRA discriminates against anti-gun-advocates because none join. [/quote] Yeah, those old southern ideals are something, all right. Why does a man have to pledge to be polite and respectful to women? Why isn’t the default position? And do you have to get voted into the NRA or can anyone become a member? > [@](#): > > SO WHAT that that particular fraternity is based on ideals blacks might not want to associate with. SO, including “ideals” that promote segregation and de facto racism – like the “Old South ball,” and let’s not get into what bullshit _that_ is – is _obviously_, _inherently_ exclusionary. And exclusionary is IMO _not a good thing_. It’s like your argument is that if an organization becomes exclusionary by holding “ideals” that are alienating or offensive to others – then the “exclusion” is the responsibility of the people who choose not to join, and not the responsibility of the organization that is obviously and intentionally making them feel unwelcome. OF COURSE blacks CHOOSE not to join – would _you_ choose to join an organization that made you feel unwelcome and uncomfortable? How does that make the organization’s behavior okay? > [@](#): > > Alpha Phi Alpha and many other majority black fraternities have ideals these same people WILL identify with and WILL want to join, and for that matter, the guys who join KA will get run out of A Phi A just as fast if not faster. So what? Both men have a place where they can share their ideals. AFAIK or CT, black GLOs in the South do not adhere to old ideas that are rooted in racism and classism. They arose as a direct result of the fact that their members were not (and largely still are not) allowed in the ranks of the majority white southern GLOs. They do not exist _for_ exclusionary segregationist ideals; they exist _because of_ and in reaction to exclusionary segregationist ideals. And black GLOs have neither the money nor the national clout enjoyed by white GLOs, as surely you know, so painting them as “separate but equal” is inaccurate. > [@](#): > > Even the most homogenous fraternities have a wide range of looks and acts. every fraternity has particular personalities and idosyncrasies. Sororities are the same way, not surprisingly. Even the “best” sororities around here have what you might call “ugly” girls, some of whom are in leadership and otherwise worthwhile roles in their “pretty-girl only” sororities. That may be your experience. It is not mine as a person working on a largely Greek college campus, and it was not mine when I was an undergraduate or a graduate student. The validity of your experience does not undercut the validity of mine. > [@](#): > > Chess club is exclusionary to those who play chess, and Ren Faire is one of the worst examples of cliquesh dress-alike behaviors you can find, possibly short of a gothic club. Oh, please. You don’t even have to play chess to belong to a chess club! You just have to have an interest in it. _Anybody_ can join. They don’t vote you in or out; they don’t make you spend a certain amount of time associating with the chess club or in service to the chess club, and they don’t make you live at the chess club. Chess club, you get together once a week and play some chess, then you go home to your own home and your own life. Are you serously arguing that’s the same as Greek culture? And _anybody_ can go to a Ren Faire. > [@Hippy Hollow](#): > > Are you sure? Are you prepared to make that blanket statement about all of them? Doesn’t one have to at least know how to play chess, or be proficient in some of them? Don’t some Ren Faires want people who are _very_ invested in the suspension of belief, talking in medieval-speak, and so on? I’m pretty sure neither chess club nor Ren Faires are exclusionary, yeah. I’m also pretty sure that comparing Greek life to chess club or Ren Faires is pretty silly. > [@](#): > > I’ll bet there is a lot of diversity in those groups… just like there are GLOs that are essentially people who live together to cut costs. And there are those where you have to recite the history from memory at every meeting… and every variant in between. Sure, but my experience and my conclusion is that there are a lot more tending toward the “recite history” end of the spectrum than there are on the “people living together to cut costs” end of the spectrum. In particular, there are a number of GLOs that are open and welcoming of all and that do not haze or even pedge. I think it is inarguable that such open GLOs are in the minority as compared to “traditional” GLOs. > [@](#): > > But I think saying that Ren Faires are stupid would be jerkish of me. I can certainly say that it isn’t for me, from what I’ve seen, but I imagine that there is probably a group of cool people that might encourage me to put on a leotard and drink mead… once. I can respect that they do good work for some people, even if it is simply putting people with a similar interest together. If I was to insist that they were stupid and geeky and never be able to appreciate that some might not fit that stereotype, I think that would make me something of an asshole. Not if that was your legitimately held belief. I think overall GLOs are not a good thing. Are SOME of them a good thing? Certainly. And I assume ALL of them are a good thing to SOME people – specifically, their members. You may consider it assholish of me: (a) to conclude that on balance the negatives of Greek life, taken as a whole, outweigh the positives, and (b) to actually say so, but that is in fact my opinion. Personally, I don’t believe that “putting people with a similar interest together” is, in and of itself, “good work.” I think part of the problem with the Greek system, broadly speaking, is that it promotes homogeneity on college campuses precisely by putting people with similary backgrounds and interests together, while excluding those who might be different. I don’t find that to jibe well with the broadening of horizons which IMO should be the experience of college students. > [@](#): > > I do expect the smart people I’ve learned so much from on this board to examine their own prejudices and be able to acknowledge that this is perhaps something they can’t discuss with an open mind or fairly. I honesty to God do not understand why people would assume that others who reach different conclusions than them must have done so through the lens of prejudice, or with a closed mind, or unfairly. What if we were discussing the NRA? Gun control – good or bad? The NRA – a positivie influence in American society, or a negative one? Why would you or anyone assume that a position taken in such a discussion must have been taken due to anything other than rational analysis and critical thought? > [@](#): > > Why is that? I am a member of a Black GLO and the same issues often take place in my organization. I have had members of my organization say that they refuse to initiate White members, for instance. People in my chapter were arrested for criminal activities. Many Black GLOs are older and more established than many of the others. Classism and racism exist here too. I know they do, but AFAIK not to the same extent as the establshed white fraternities and sororities. Black sororities in particular appear to me to be much less interested in physical appearance and repressing individuality than white sororities. But my only basis for that conclusion is by observing the appearance and behavior of white sorority girls versus black sorority girls. (And FYI, the appearance of the white sorority girls on the campus I work on is as if they have been cut out with a cookie cutter, and their behavior is not altogether edifying, either on campus during the day [giggling and clique-y] or off campus at night [giggling and drunk].) So if you’d like to argue that the black GLOs are in fact just as guilty of racist and classist behavior, okay, I guess. That’s hardly going to raise my opinion of the system as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![enigm4tic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@enigm4tic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enigm4tic)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2007, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-broad-brush-and-shove-it-a-defense-of-greek-life/394005/66 "2007-02-28T20:49:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Yeah, those old southern ideals are something, all right. Why does a man have to pledge to be polite and respectful to women? Why isn’t the default position? And do you have to get voted into the NRA or can anyone become a member? You don’t have to. My point was that by “southern ideals” you’re acting like they’re standing around all day holding up signs promoting racism and segregation while they’re really not. Hell for that matter I still even know KAs who have black friends. As to being voted in to the NRA, well, no I suppose you don’t, but I’m not sure how that eliminates my point that it’s exactly the same principle at work; namely that no anti-gun activists become active members of the NRA. Again, so what? Since we’re caught up in the KA example, which is an outlier as far as race is concerned anyways (hell even at least one of the Jewish fraternities has a black member, and several non-Jewish members, despite being organized explicitly based on Jewish ideals, some people still are accepted and valued non-Jewish members of these organizations) I’ll finish arguing the point. They aren’t actively racist, they don’t organizationally hate black,s their charter does not prohibit or even discourage black members. I still don’t see why as a general principle you are so upset with a group of men or women organizing around a set of ideals or a common ground and accepting members on the basis of whether or not they will contribute to the brotherhood. As I’ve repeatedly pointed out, despite the fact that you got caught up with probably the most extreme example, almost every fraternity has some fraction of minority members, there are diverse characters in each fraternity, all of whom add to the overall brotherhood. As to being “voted in”, again, I’m not sure why you have such a perception of built-in discrimination in this process. Of the people we have “blackballed”, all of them have been for one of the following reasons 1) Lack of commitment to the brotherhood: namely, that they refused or didn’t do work required of all of the brothers and didn’t commit the time and energy toward the fraternity that we would expect (and NOT just out pledges, of all brothers) and thus were going to be a comparative drain on resources. that or Immaturity and disrespect towards women. This is a capital offense for a fraternity, since as you rightly point out, all men should be respectful of women. We hold our members to a high standard of respect, and even drunken slip-ups bring about at least a talking to, outright disrespect to women while pledging (associating, actually, for Lambda Chi, we don’t have “pledges”) is a quick ticket to the door. Aside from that, Associates (pledges) will drop if they later decide that they are not as fond of the atmosphere provided by the brotherhood as they once thought. Some of these end up rushing different houses and liking the experience far better during their second attempt (we have several members who once pledged other fraternities and dropped). Again, to draw comparisons, would you say the chess club discriminates because somebody doesn’t like chess so doesn’t join? no! Would you say we discriminate because somebody doesn’t like our ideals and doesn’t join? no! Are we discriminating if we don’t allow somebody to join solely based on race,? sure! do we do that? No! Presumably, a black man in favor of all the ideals of Kappa Alpha who convinced Kappa Alpha that he would fit in well to their existing members would be extended a bid. The fact that there are very few if any blacks who agree with the general perception of their ideals isn’t discriminatory in itself. ---
**Author:** ![enigm4tic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@enigm4tic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enigm4tic)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2007, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-broad-brush-and-shove-it-a-defense-of-greek-life/394005/67 "2007-02-28T20:50:32Z")
> [@](#): > > That may be your experience. It is not mine as a person working on a largely Greek college campus, and it was not mine when I was an undergraduate or a graduate student. The validity of your experience does not undercut the validity of mine. I’d like to if possible address some of your experiences and possibly give you insight as to why things may have been different than you percieve and provide and explanation as to why that may have been what you thought at the time. or at least to hear where you’re coming from in order to more effectively address your concerns. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2007, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-broad-brush-and-shove-it-a-defense-of-greek-life/394005/68 "2007-02-28T20:52:14Z")
[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow] Are you sure? Are you prepared to make that blanket statement about all of them? Doesn’t one have to at least know how to play chess, or be proficient in some of them? Don’t some Ren Faires want people who are _very_ invested in the suspension of belief, talking in medieval-speak, and so on? [/QUOTE] No, and no. The purpose of a chess club is to get more people to play chess. Every chess club I’ve been a member of or associated with was overjoyed to have people who don’t know how to play chess show up, because that’s one more chess player in the world. Ren faires are for-profit, public events. If you can pay the gate fee, you can come in. I haven’t yet heard of a Ren faire that required participants to attend in costume, let alone use “medieval-speak.” Which, incidentally, would be an odd thing to require at a _Renaissance_ Faire in the first place. Really, both are very poor comparisons to college fraternities. ---
**Author:** ![enigm4tic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@enigm4tic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enigm4tic)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2007, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-broad-brush-and-shove-it-a-defense-of-greek-life/394005/69 "2007-02-28T21:08:34Z")
I have an idea. Let’s ignore the general topic at hand and focus on a couple of outside examples. And AGAIN on that note. People who don’t like chess OR if they _don’t like the people in the chess club_ they aren’t going to join. Unsurprisingly, people who don’t like the people at a fraternity or don’t like “the chess” that they play there (metaphorically) aren’t going to join. In general, if somebody likes the brothers and the ideas present in the fraternity, they’ll get along with the people there and be extended a bid. Ok, great, it’s a bit more exclusionary than the chess club, I get that, and there’s no point in denying it, but that doesn’t mean we harass people willy-nilly who don’t meet some sort of magical exacting standards. Usually we make good character decisons. I can recall one specific incident of a guy really interested in joining who was a problem at a couple of our rush events. We rather politely steered him down fraternity row. He pledged elsewhere and was later balled for precisely the same sorts of behavior (disrespect of the brotherhood, and women, inability to control himself at parties or while drinking, etc.) that we anticipated (rightly) would be a problem. Are you holding it against us that we didn’t accept a member that would bring us and our high standards down? If so, why? Is it wrong of us to have standards at all? I don’t see how this is a legitimate complaint against us. Again, if we were outright discriminating for poor reasons (race, comparative looks) than yeah, I’d have an issue: but for the most part we judge based on personality, social ability, meshing with the existing brothers, and skills that they would bring to the table. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2007, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-broad-brush-and-shove-it-a-defense-of-greek-life/394005/70 "2007-02-28T21:12:34Z")
Some points of clarification: I suppose I didn’t make it clear that I was referring to an organization that plans Ren Faires. I don’t see how it isn’t possible that someone who thinks Ren Faires are stupid or hates them on principle, if he or she pays to enter, could attend. I have friends… well, associates who organize and work with Ren Faires, and I was talking about that group. I also know people who organize and put on Rocky Horror Picture Shows. Those organizations, where there is an expectation of a common interest and commitment to the activity. Not every Ren Fairer or Rocky Horror person has to be slavishly devoted to all aspects of the activity, but I, for example, would not probably be sought after or invited to join because I’m not interested in either of those activities. I also had friends on chess and debate clubs in college. Both organizations required you to have some proficiency in the pursuits. Perhaps the club you’re affiliated with, **Miller,** was seeking to bring more chess players in the world, and I know of clubs like that, but the one I was thinking of sought out pretty decent players. If you didn’t know how to play chess, or never debated, there’d be a significant disconnect between the activities in the organization and one’s familiarity with it. Really, I am willing to be quite certain that every Ren Faire (planning group) and chess club isn’t open to anyone who just shows up. Is this really a statement that is so extreme? I don’t have an interest in Ren Faire stuff, or chess. In fact I might even have a slightly negative attitude about these pursuits. I think the group has every right to seek out members that engage with the activity on some level. And I also think that some groups exist that look for people with high levels of passion and skill for the activity. Some probably don’t. Does that make sense now? (And yeah, we’ve veered from the topic at hand, so I apologize. The larger point I was trying to make is that GLOs have a selection and initiation process, as a great deal of non-GLOs do… so why is the Greek system criticized for doing so, and other organizations are not? Back to the regularly scheduled program.) ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2007, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-broad-brush-and-shove-it-a-defense-of-greek-life/394005/71 "2007-02-28T21:19:57Z")
**Jodi** , I have been thinking about this and am very regretful that I responded to you the way that I did. I am sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2007, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-broad-brush-and-shove-it-a-defense-of-greek-life/394005/72 "2007-02-28T21:22:56Z")
[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow] Really, I am willing to be quite certain that every Ren Faire (planning group) and chess club isn’t open to anyone who just shows up. Is this really a statement that is so extreme? ) [/QUOTE] Provided you actually want to help, sure, you can “just show up” to most Ren Faire planning boards and they will put you to work. Immediately. There is some disagreements amongst people, but the boards themselves are fairly open-minded. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2007, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-broad-brush-and-shove-it-a-defense-of-greek-life/394005/73 "2007-02-28T21:25:38Z")
[QUOTE=enigm4tic] You don’t have to. My point was that by “southern ideals” you’re acting like they’re standing around all day holding up signs promoting racism and segregation while they’re really not. Hell for that matter I still even know KAs who have black friends. [/quote] Do you recognize how “I still even know KAs who have black friends” sounds? I never said they were holding up signs promoting racism and segregation. There’s nothing so blatant as that. I don’t even think the majority of white southern GLOs have a conscious or intentional racist agenda. But the fact is you put a bunch of upper class white boys (or girls) together and have them form a social organization of other people who are just like them – there ain’t gonna be a lot of blacks invited to join. And the benefits that you listed – which are real benefits – are benefits that therefore are not available to all those people who were too “different” – too ethic, too gay, too eccentric, too unattractive – to be allowed to join. What is the societal value of a social organization that encourages people who already have a lot to band together and support each other, to the exclusion of others? > [@](#): > > As to being voted in to the NRA, well, no I suppose you don’t, but I’m not sure how that eliminates my point that it’s exactly the same principle at work; namely that no anti-gun activists become active members of the NRA. But they CAN be, if they want. A fraternity or sorority applicant must be _invited_ to join – even if they would give their left arm to belong, even if they have clear talents they could bring to the organization, even if they believe with their whole heart in the mission (such as it is) of the GLO. Anyone can be excluded, and lots of people are. > [@](#): > > I still don’t see why as a general principle you are so upset with a group of men or women organizing around a set of ideals or a common ground and accepting members on the basis of whether or not they will contribute to the brotherhood. First, I’m not at all upset by it. I could give a shit about Greek life. The most impact it has on me is when the partying keeps me awake. Second, as I’ve said several times, I don’t like the exclusionary nature of the Greek system. I don’t like the fact you have to pay to belong. I don’t like the fact it promotes looking alike / dressing alike / thinking alike. I don’t like the fact it encourages people to bond with other people who are already just like them. I think the rituals and secret rites are silly, > [@](#): > > As I’ve repeatedly pointed out, despite the fact that you got caught up ith probably the most extreme example, almost every fraternity has some fraction of minority members, there are diverse characters in each fraternity, all of whom add to the overall brotherhood. Actually, I don’t think it’s accurate to say that “almost every fraternity has some fraction of minority members.” AFAIK, a lot of fraternities and sororities do not. In fairness, this is not entirely the Greeks’ fault; a lot of minority students have no interest in going Greek. But interestingly, it is difficult to get hard numbers of the breakdown of race in fraternities and sororities because as private social organizations they are not required to disclose their membership data. Many universities hold Greek organizations to their campus anti-discrimination policies – but because the Greek membership votes are “secret,” there’s no way to prove that fraternity Alpha Beta has no blacks because it doesn’t allow blacks in, as opposed to that Alpha Beta just happens to have no blacks and, totally coincidentally, never has. > [@](#): > > Again, to draw comparisons, would you say the chess club discriminates because somebody doesn’t like chess so doesn’t join? Again, someone who doesn’t like chess CAN join. At no point is he not ALLOWED to join. You keep coming back to the chess club and missing the salient point which is that anyone CAN join; the club is not inherently exclusionary. > [@](#): > > Presumably, a black man in favor of all the ideals of Kappa Alpha who convinced Kappa Alpha that he would fit in well to their existing members would be extended a bid. How could a black man possibly fit in well with a group that venerates the antebellum – i.e, slavery – era in the South, to the extent of holding a ball at which they wear Confederate uniforms? What would the black member go to the ball as, the token slave? Again, if you hold “ideals” that are discriminatory and unwelcoming, then it is no surprise that the people who perceive them to be discriminatory, or who are made to feel unwelcome, would not join. QED. > [@](#): > > The fact that there are very few if any blacks who agree with the general perception of their ideals isn’t discriminatory in itself. Aw, bullshit. If I start the He-man Girl Hater’s Club and hold meetings about what hoary bitches women are, how can I argue I’m not discriminating against women? They can join, anyone can join! Well, not really, because, see, we have a secret vote for all members, and we only let in people who are like us, and I’m sure you can guess from the history of the He-man Girl Hater’s Club how likely it is that we’d let a woman in. But she wouldn’t be excluded for being a woman! She’d be excluded because she didn’t “fit in.” > [@](#): > > I’d like to if possible address some of your experiences and possibly give you insight as to why things may have been different than you percieve and provide and explanation as to why that may have been what you thought at the time. or at least to hear where you’re coming from in order to more effectively address your concerns. I appreciate that, really. I don’t actually have any concerns. My reasons for not liking the Greek system as a whole have been pretty well documented in this thread. They range from the inherent exclusionary nature of these social clubs to the personal observations of the behavior of many – not all! – fraternity guys and sorority girls. FWIW, I don’t like _any_ exclusionary social clubs. I’m no bigger fan of the Old White Boys’ Country Club or the Junior League than I am of the Tri-Delts. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2007, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-broad-brush-and-shove-it-a-defense-of-greek-life/394005/74 "2007-02-28T21:34:09Z")
**whole bean** , I appreciate your apology and I accept it. I in turn apologize for offending you; I did not intend to. What I intended was merely to point out that however successful you have been in your life, it is due to your own merits and not to the fact that you belong(ed) to a fraternity. ---
**Author:** ![enigm4tic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@enigm4tic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enigm4tic)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2007, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-broad-brush-and-shove-it-a-defense-of-greek-life/394005/75 "2007-02-28T21:45:36Z")
> [@](#): > > ctually, I don’t think it’s accurate to say that “almost every fraternity has some fraction of minority members.” AFAIK, a lot of fraternities and sororities do not. In fairness, this is not entirely the Greeks’ fault; a lot of minority students have no interest in going Greek. ok so you continue to harp on our lack of diversity while simultaneously saying something I pointed out earlier in the thread about the lack of minority interest? > [@](#): > > Again, if you hold “ideals” that are discriminatory and unwelcoming, then it is no surprise that the people who perceive them to be discriminatory, or who are made to feel unwelcome, would not join. QED. Exactly, so they don’t join out of free choice not to align themselves with said ideals. Problem being? They DO join other fraternities that have ideals they CAN align themselves with. Problem being? > [@](#): > > I don’t like the fact it promotes looking alike / dressing alike / thinking alike. so you don’t like Ren Fairebecause it promotes dressing in period costumes? You don’t like Indian Dance Festivals because they promote dressing in cultural garb, for that matter you don’t like _the general idea of a culture?_. Frankly, one thought I had on the difference of whites and minorities going Greek is specifically because white ideas of culture are so diffuse. By finding a specific group that you CAN have a culture with may be a particular draw for many white boys. Can you really hold it against Greeks for having a particular culture without holding it against the black “ghetto” dress, the “goth” culture, “indie rockers”, “traditional indians”, “conservative jews” (yarmulkas, for example), etc. that all _promote looking alike/dressing alike/thinking alike_ in many cases far in excess of how much fraternities promote members to think alike? On another note, I noticed that many of my points, particularly post [#59](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8306954&postcount=59) have gone unaddressed in favor of keeping with the extreme example I probably shouldn’t have brought up anyways oh and because I just noticed, no I’m not in that picture **Nawth Chucka** that was our Fall '06 rush class. [sarcasm]Note the token minorities! We managed to get 2 hispanics, another asian, AND a black guy ALL IN ONE CLASS!!! AND this semester we picked up ANOTHER black guy, another Asian guy AND an Indian guy! [/sarcasm] 😃😃 :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2007, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-broad-brush-and-shove-it-a-defense-of-greek-life/394005/76 "2007-02-28T21:46:36Z")
[QUOTE=Jodi] **whole bean** , I appreciate your apology and I accept it. I in turn apologize for offending you; I did not intend to. What I intended was merely to point out that however successful you have been in your life, it is due to your own merits and not to the fact that you belong(ed) to a fraternity. [/QUOTE] Thank you for your apology and for accepting mine. As for “what my fraternity did for me”: it truly was where my friends were (before I joined) and those friends who were not in it because they were in other organizations or because they weren’t in organizations remained my friends. But Greek life was rewarding for me. It may not be for everyone. That being said, “it” isn’t the same everywhere. The guy from W&L mentioned that male Greek organizations were comprised of something like 90% of the male student body. I’ve heard it’s like that at Wake too. It was more like 40% for us. When it’s that high, you’re going to find a great deal of diversity both among and within the organizations. It has been my experience that the larger fraternities and sororities at larger state schools - like Bama, UGA, UF and Auburn – are much more homogenous than they are at smaller schools, sometimes having members who all hale from the same one or two towns. The point is, there is no one example of what all Greek life is like. At the same time, a Greek organization is its membership. Were there no fraternities, the assholes would still be there and they’d still find one another and they’d still fight, rape, etc. Were I to go back to school today, the person I am now, I don’t know if I’d join the same fraternity or if I would even affiliate at all, but that’s because I’ve changed over time and my Greek experience was part of what changed me. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2007, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-broad-brush-and-shove-it-a-defense-of-greek-life/394005/77 "2007-02-28T22:07:03Z")
[QUOTE=Anaamika] Provided you actually want to help, sure, you can “just show up” to most Ren Faire planning boards and they will put you to work. Immediately. There is some disagreements amongst people, but the boards themselves are fairly open-minded. [/QUOTE] I swear I’ll drop this after this response. To use your response as an example, **Anaamika** , it sounds like you are speaking from some experience with Ren Faire organizers. You state that in your experience, there is an acceptance among the membership, although some don’t agree with letting just anyone participate. You didn’t state that all Ren Faire planning boards are as open as can be, nor are they exclusionary. Seems like a reasonable response to me. All I’m asking is that Dopers take the same approach in discussing such a broad category as GLOs. I have worked at and attended seven campuses across this nation, two of which do not have a Greek system, some private, some public. At the places where we had serious problems with the GLOs, we tended to have the same problems with other groups. In fact, I remember a student saying to me that one particular service organization took pride in hazing harder than anybody else on campus, and because they were not Greek they were able to get away with a lot because nobody thought they did anything as bad as the fraternities. I dealt with binge drinking, violence, and sexual assault to name a few problems, with students in the Greek system and outside of it. And in some ways the GLOs were easier to approach - issues like legal liability and public relations often factor into their decision making process. Not all the time of course, but often enough that I knew calling in chapter presidents would make a difference. The wing of res hall students I had that were into smoking pot behind the res hall? Not so much. I teach on the history of higher education and I can assure you, misbehavior and hazing are part of the fabric of college life in this nation. In the 1600s and 1700s it was the tutors beating the shit out of the students. There was even a student revolt in New Haven in the 1800s after Yale students got fed up of getting their asses kicked by New Haven toughs. There’s a real reason why a lot of campuses have walls and gates. The collegiate years are for better or worse the middle class American rite of passage. Fraternities and sororities evolved to protect students, bring together students, and yes, exclude students. Student unions and political organizations did much the same. If there is an issue about exclusion it must involve the campus itself as a whole. Very few campus-community organizations exist, and it isn’t shocking to hear students who attend college here in Cambridge to never venture beyond Arlington, Somerville, Watertown, and Allston (local surrounding towns). Colleges and universities themselves tend to be exclusionary and elitist on some level. Why are we leveling outrage at organizations that are as old as the collegiate system itself, when they are simply replicating what colleges have always done? The interesting thing to note is that the GLOs have different personalities across campuses. The ATOs I interacted with in California are nothing like the ones I interacted with in New England. Even year to year, houses change. My fraternity was once the place where the politically active men of color and progressive White men seemed to flock. In three years time that changed completely. A handful of dynamic members can rejuvenate a flagging house; conversely, a class of dolts and jackasses can cause damage that will take years to repair… if the GLO still exists after the damage is done. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2007, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-broad-brush-and-shove-it-a-defense-of-greek-life/394005/78 "2007-02-28T22:24:56Z")
[QUOTE=enigm4tic] ok so you continue to harp on our lack of diversity while simultaneously saying something I pointed out earlier in the thread about the lack of minority interest? [/quote] This is a “chicken and egg” argument: Which came first, the exclusion of minorities, or the lack of desire of minorities to join? (Except that in this case I think it’s pretty clear which came first.) You are saying that minorities are not interested; I am saying that they are not interested in significant part because the Greek organizations do not make them feel welcome and do not accept them because they are “different” and don’t “fit in.” You are apparently okay with putting all responsibility for the homogeneity of Greek organizations on the shoulders of students who “choose” not to join; I place a lot of that responsibility on the shoulders of the organizations, which make no effort to be inclusive and are in fact in many cases alienating. > [@](#): > > Exactly, so they don’t join out of free choice not to align themselves with said ideals. Problem being? Problem being that you have an organization that holds those ideals in the first place. > [@](#): > > They DO join other fraternities that have ideals they CAN align themselves with. Problem being? Problem being that those newer, more inclusive, minority GLOs rarely (ever, AFAIK) have the resources, national reach, or clout of the larger white GLOs. It’s not “separate but equal.” > [@](#): > > so you don’t like Ren Fairebecause it promotes dressing in period costumes? Not a big fan, no. But I note **AGAIN** that no one is excluded from participating in a Ren Faire if they want. > [@](#): > > Yon’t like Indian Dance Festivals because they promote dressing in cultural garb . . . For what purpose? To stand around and congratulate each other on how alike we are? Not so much. Cultural garb to celebrate the culture? Fine with me. > [@](#): > > . . . for that matter you don’t like _the general idea of a culture?_. What? 😕 FYI, I do not ascribe Greek life the status of a “culture.” > [@](#): > > Frankly, one thought I had on the difference of whites and minorities going Greek is specifically because white ideas of culture are so diffuse. I’m not sure I follow you here. > [@](#): > > By finding a specific group that you CAN have a culture with may be a particular draw for many white boys. Another reason to disapprove of them. I am _definitely_ not in favor of promoting the “culture” of being an upper-class white male. Talk about wasting your resources. > [@](#): > > Can you really hold it against Greeks for having a particular culture without holding it against the black “ghetto” dress, the “goth” culture, “indie rockers”, “traditional indians”, “conservative jews” (yarmulkas, for example), etc. that all _promote looking alike/dressing alike/thinking alike_ in many cases far in excess of how much fraternities promote members to think alike? Yes. Obviously. You don’t have to live in the Goth house. You don’t pay dues to be a Jew. The fact is, many of the fraternity guys and sorority girls DO sound alike, dress alike, and seem to think alike. I have not observed this same phenomenon among, say, idie rockers. I don’t like it. You asked why I hold Greek organizations in generally low esteem; this is one reason why. YMMV, but that doesn’t make my experience incorrect. And I will also say that I find this tendency to be _especially_ true in sororities, much more than in fraternities, and that is actually the reason I like sororities in general much _less_ than I like fraternities. IME as an undergraduate, there was an expectation that as a sorority girl you would look a certain way and behave a certain way – pretty as you could be, interested in clothes and make-up, not too smart, not too “deep”, very concerned about guys, considerably less concerned about academics – and my observation of sororitiy girls on the campus at which I work tends to indicate these expectations are still in place. Have I conducted in-depth interviews? No. Is this a description of _all_ sorority girls? Obviously not. > [@](#): > > On another note, I noticed that many of my points, particularly post [#59](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8306954&postcount=59) have gone unaddressed in favor of keeping with the extreme example I probably shouldn’t have brought up anyways. Actually, I drafted a response to your post but then I thought it made my respnose too long and/or you’d think I was beating up on you so I didn’t post it. So here you go: 1. Provide a closely knit social network. **This is not IMO a good thing; it’s not what kids should be going to university for.** 2. Provide a basis for that intra-fraternal network via a unifying ritual known only to those within the fraternity. **Again, not IMO a good thing, and obviously exclusionary – secret handshake and related BS.** 3. Teach members life skills and educate them as to many of the things they’ll need to know entering the real world. **That’s what the whole university is for.** 4. Provide members with unique career building resources (we have unique resume building speakers, leadership programs available only to members, career resources directly supplied by alumni in scores of industries that you can contact and instantly be assured that your brother will at least give you a solid hearing, and others). **Formidable resources that are available only to those who are selected and can afford to belong.** 5. Provide a framework for partying and meeting new people (particularly sororities during official social functions) that, despite what many may think, values safety (nobody wants to see their brother get hurt doing something stupid, even though stuff still does happen, but it happens EVERYWHERE, not just GLOs). \*\*]Meeting new people – that’s what the whole university is for. Framework for partying – since binge and excess drinking (and related results from accidents to sexual assaults) are acknowledged and persistent Greek problems, I’m not sure I’d list this as a plus. \*\* 6. Organize and present members with opportunities across campus, encourage members to expand their campus involvement outside of the organization itself, and have dedicated resources in organization to help members discover new opportunities. **Pretty much any service-based campus organization does the same.** 7. Buy a lot of beer. :rolleyes: 8. Give motivation to excel through minimum standards that are higher than the general university requirements, including behavioral, gradepoint, and involvement requirements. **Honor Society does it better.** 9. Provide a fallback network of brothers that can help with any crisis, are always available to provide general assistance in class, working out, getting a girl, getting a job, or any number of other activities. **That’s what friends are for.** 10. Plan, carry out and manage philanthropic activities open to the community at large, as well as participating and contributing to other philanthropic events held by other organizations. **Every other service organization you can name does the same.** 11. Educate about and encourage members to participate in Student Government elections. **Student Government does a much better job.** > [@](#): > > Greek Organizations do ALL of this and more, no other single organization I can think of provides this much to its members. That’s actually part of the problem: It provides all that only to its members, not to anyone else. You have to be accepted, you have to live in the house, you have to spend a certain amount of time with your “brothers” or “sisters,” and you have to pay for it. I’m not sure where you want this conversation to go. I trust my opinion is clear, and I doubt you’ll be able to change it. I am fully able to acknowledge – and do acknowledge – that many people have personal experiences of fraternities and sororities that are quite positive. That said, there are many problems that arise _repeatedly_ in the context of Greek life – and I mean have existed and are re-occurring for _decades_ – which even the Greek organizations do not deny. Drinking? It’s a problem. Hazing? Less of a problem but still one, because many organizations cling to the tradition of unifying “rituals” (secret or not) and proofs of loyalty, and the line between those and hazing can be mighty fine. Racism and/or homogeneity? Yeah, it’s a problem. Many chapters of many houses are actively working on diversity because they _know_ it’s a problem. I don’t think there’s an argument to be made that fraternities and sororities are not at least socio-economically discriminatory, as is every other social organization you must pay money to belong to – and, again, I don’t like _any_ of those sorts of organizations. I don’t like the _idea_ of a Greek system, and I can fully understand why Europeans and other non-U.S.'ians are completely mistified by the whole concept. Do I picket along fraternity row? No. Does this issue keep me up nights? No. Do I in any respect think _less_ of _anyone_ for belonging to a GLO? No. But _as a whole_ I don’t see the value of the system, that’s all. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2007, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-broad-brush-and-shove-it-a-defense-of-greek-life/394005/79 "2007-02-28T22:44:31Z")
I’ve heard that the Black KA’s at William & Mary, along with brothers from northern states, form the union army for Old South Weekend. I know for fact that the KA’s at Emory have Jewish brothers and that the KA’s at UF were one of the first to intitiate a black brother. Just throwing that out there. As for liability and “risk management,” as we called it, let me assure you that in most cases, no one is more attuned to this than the executives of a Chapter. It is very common for designated brothers to see to it that fraternity functions do not get out of hand. Still, like anything else, a particular fraternity is going to be as bad as the sum of its parts – garbage in, garbage out, and all. But where the brothers\* are smart, responsible, contributing memebers of the campus, then the organization can amplify that. I truly believe this. The problem is, we’re all approaching this with pictures in our heads of what a typical fraternity is and those pictures don’t match. The guys in my house were from all over the world (we had three brothers from Canada, one from Denmark and a little sister from Trinidad), of varying backgrounds - North African, Vietnamese, Lebanese, Jewish, Danish, French Canadian along with the cluster of WASPs. And yes, there were assholes, and I hated them, but that’s life. We didn’t dress the same or drive the same cars or date the same girls. In fact, most of the girls who hung around with us were unaffiliated. Not being a woman, I never went through sorrority rush, but from what I’ve seen, I don’t think I would want to. I guess, in that respect, I can see where a lot of you anti-Greek types are coming from. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2007, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-broad-brush-and-shove-it-a-defense-of-greek-life/394005/80 "2007-02-28T22:49:57Z")
[QUOTE=Jodi] 7) Buy a lot of beer. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] it’s a legitmate perk. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-broad-brush-and-shove-it-a-defense-of-greek-life/394005.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-broad-brush-and-shove-it-a-defense-of-greek-life/394005.md?page=5)