# Take your vitamins **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 14, 2017, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-vitamins/786596 "2017-05-14T16:27:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-vitamins/786596/81 "2017-05-16T03:05:13Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Vitamin D. The great pale hope of supplementation. Recent thread.[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=824362](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=824362) > > Certainly it still has lots of believers, including among health care professionals. So far though no evidence that routine supplementation has any benefit whatsoever. No evidence? Really? > **[Fall prevention with supplemental and active forms of vitamin D: a...](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19797342/)** > > Supplemental vitamin D in a dose of 700-1000 IU a day reduced the risk of falling among older individuals by 19% and to a similar degree as active forms of vitamin D. Doses of supplemental vitamin D of less than 700 IU or serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D... > **[A higher dose of vitamin d reduces the risk of falls in nursing home...](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17302660/)** > > Nursing home residents in the highest vitamin D group (800 IU) had a lower number of fallers and a lower incidence rate of falls over 5 months than those taking lower doses. Adequate vitamin D supplementation in elderly nursing home residents could... > **[Systematic review: Vitamin D and calcium supplementation in prevention of...](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20194238/)** > > The American Heart Association and the National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute. > **[Vitamin D supplementation for prevention of mortality in adults - PubMed](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21735411/)** > > Vitamin D in the form of vitamin D(3) seems to decrease mortality in predominantly elderly women who are mainly in institutions and dependent care. Vitamin D(2), alfacalcidol, and calcitriol had no statistically significant effect on mortality.... > **[Randomized trial of vitamin D supplementation to prevent seasonal influenza A...](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20219962/)** > > This study suggests that vitamin D(3) supplementation during the winter may reduce the incidence of influenza A, especially in specific subgroups of schoolchildren. This trial was registered at https://center.umin.ac.jp as UMIN000001373. > **[A randomized controlled trial of the effects of vitamin D on muscle strength...](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21054285/)** > > Vitamin D therapy was observed to increase muscle function in those who were the weakest and slowest at baseline. Vitamin D should be given to people with insufficiency or deficiency to improve muscle strength and mobility. > **[Effect of Vitamin D Supplementation on Unexplained Recurrent Spontaneous...](https://www.ccsenet.org/journal/index.php/gjhs/article/view/57723)** > > Effect of Vitamin D Supplementation on Unexplained Recurrent Spontaneous Abortion: A Double-Blind Randomized Controlled Trial > **[A randomized double-blind placebo-controlled study adding high dose vitamin D...](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25801891/)** > > Adding 4000 IU of vitamin D for patients with musculoskeletal pain may lead to a faster decline of consecutive VAS scores and to a decrease in the levels of inflammatory and pain-related cytokines. > **[Vitamin D supplementation to prevent acute respiratory tract infections:...](https://www.bmj.com/content/356/bmj.i6583)** > > Objectives  To assess the overall effect of vitamin D supplementation on risk of acute respiratory tract infection, and to identify factors modifying this effect. > > Design  Systematic review and meta-analysis of individual participant data... ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-vitamins/786596/82 "2017-05-16T04:13:50Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > I read on line about ten years ago that Vitamin A-Palmitate may delay the progression or Retinitis Pigmentosa by as much as ten percent. So I started taking it, available only on line, but cheap. Later my two ophthalmologists said it’s good science, and they think the results are convincing, and I should keep taking it. I still have a little vision left, so I may now be running on Vitamin Time. Maybe. I’ll take it, A friend has early stage macular degeneration and she IS on a pretty specific set of vitamins for it, per medical advice. The condition seems to be stable so either it’s working, or at least it’s doing no harm. I don’t recall what the mix is, but when she had a minor gyn procedure a couple months ago they ordered her to stop taking the vitamins about 10 days beforehand - something to do with risk of bleeding. I think they were overcautious and knee-jerking; this same hospital also insisted her pre-op bloodwork HAD to be done THERE, and she had to get a hospital bracelet put on at that time and if she removed it they’d either have refused to do the procedure or insisted on delaying it while they redid the bloodwork the same day… so my trust in what they told her is rather impaired… but maybe there WAS a real reason. In any case, she was pretty pissed because she is not unreasonably a bit concerned over screwing around with her eyes (re the bracelet: I told her that’s why Staples sells clear packaging tape, but she left it on and had to deal with explaining to coworkers). I do take a multivitamin when I remember, as I don’t always get enough fruit / veg and it may fill in the gaps. I take a calcium / vitamin D supplement as well, per medical advice; I don’t eat enough dietary calcium (though that’s changing lately) and I have been tested as having low vitamin D in the past (will have to ask the doc about a retest). I have taken iron supplements in the past as people with restless legs syndrome are advised to get their stored iron levels up to a slightly higher level than non-RLSers (my iron levels have since stabilized so I no longer do so). ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-vitamins/786596/83 "2017-05-16T04:14:47Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > No evidence? Really? I hadn’t seen those studies. Thanks for the links. At first glance they do seem to show benefits of vitD suplementation. However, 3 of the studies were of the elderly, one was of pregnant women, one was of young children, and one was one was inconclusive. this thread has been discussing the benefits of supplementation to the general public. So, of the 3 studies that showed significant benefits to the general population; one showed vitD increased the effectiveness of some pain medication, and the other 2 showed a decrease in mortality and a benefit to respiration in individuals with insufficient levels of the vitamin to begin with. As others have said, the efficacy of vitamins is not in question here. Certain groups will, undoubtedly, benefit from supplement of certain vitamins from time to time. mc ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-vitamins/786596/84 "2017-05-16T11:37:15Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > No evidence? Really? I concur with **mikecurtis** and my statement of “no evidence” is indeed overstated. I’ll rephrase to little evidence of benefit to the general population, that being in the possible reduction of URI rates. Some possible benefit in an elderly population especially for elderly institutionalized women. The meta-analysis of falls risk in the elderly in particular looks like a strong study. The study that showed “vitamin D(3) seems to decrease mortality in predominantly elderly women who are mainly in institutions and dependent care” with the risk of increased kidney stones if calcium is also taken is of possible note for that subpopulation. The impact on muscle strength in elderly individuals with documented vitamin D deficiency is immaterial to the question of “routine” even to a subpopulation. Not sure why you think a smallish study looking at the possibility of adding vitamin D to vaginal progesterone as a treatment for unexplained recurrent spontaneous abortion is a relevant citation. Nor the one on vitamin D as a treatment adjunct for chronic pain, for which [the evidence overall](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25946084)shows “no consistent pattern that vitamin D treatment was associated with greater efficacy than placebo in any chronic painful condition” The small study on the impact of wintertime vitamin D on influenza A rates in children is interesting, and I look forward to seeing larger studies that may give more statistically significant results. Cochrane’s [review re preschoolers](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27826955) at least “did not demonstrate benefit of vitamin D supplementation on the incidence of pneumonia or diarrhoea in children under five years” BUT using vitamin D as an adjunct in [asthma management](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27595415) may in fact of use. And the review of possible impact on URI rates was very interesting. That 2010 review regarding possible impacts on preventing cardiovascular events OTOH is pretty weak. The multiple other much more comprehensive reviews and meta-analyses have failed to find benefits. See [here](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5290426/) for a recent (2017) summary: > [@](#): > > On the weight of the many quantitative meta-analyses of the effect of vitamin D supplementation on cardiovascular factors and end points, it can be concluded that vitamin D supplementation has no beneficial effect But again there is at least little reason to be concerned about vitamin D at standard supplement levels. ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-vitamins/786596/85 "2017-05-16T15:41:05Z")
For those interested there are dozens more vitamin D randomized controlled trials listed here: > **[Proof that Vitamin D Works | VitaminDWiki](https://vitamindwiki.com/Proof+that+Vitamin+D+Works)** > > Science-based Vitamin D ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-vitamins/786596/86 "2017-05-16T16:37:17Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Thiamine (B1) is found in pork, legumes, seeds. > Riboflavin (B2) in eggs, green veggies, and meat. > > But folate (B9) is the one with the narrow window between the typical consumption in America and potential harms: 400 is RDA (and in most multis; 1000 is considered potentially harmful). You do not eat the grains that are fortified with it, few carbs, and little highly processed crap. Folate it is pretty high in legumes, nuts, seeds, dark green veggies (such as spinach), avocado, romaine lettuce, liver, fruits and fruit juices. > > Probably a fair number wouldn’t hit RDA every day in a country without folate fortification without a multi but given fortification deficiency (barring long term alcoholism or a malabsorption syndrome) is vanishingly rare in the United States. > > _Your_ diet as you describe is likely high in foods that are high in folate. Odds are pretty good that you are getting RDA plus most days. Add a multi and you may be getting to 1000 plus many days. > > A study or two for your interest: [Cancer Incidence and Mortality After Treatment With Folic Acid and Vitamin B12.](http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/184898) > [Relation to breast cancer.](http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/83/4/895.full) > Note these are not megadoses of vitamins, just an extra RDA’s worth more or so each day. > > **Shagnasty** , yup I’ll grant that a chronic severe alcoholic should take a vitamin each day and that micronutrient deficiencies are not so uncommon in many poor nations. > > If either of those apply to you, especially if are an alcoholic living in a third world country and poor, then taking a multi makes great sense. It’s a start at your problems in that case anyway. > > If you are a typical American, eating typical American crap, who is not a chronic severe alcoholic or with some malabsorption syndrome, you highly highly likely are getting enough micronutrients, you may have problems from your nutritional _excesses_, you would likely benefit from less crap and more, well let’s call it “food”, and much much more likely than not a multi aint gonna help you. > > And as for the thought that “it couldn’t hurt” … well see above. Although usually it won’t. > No question that there are people on restricted nutrition plans that should take some supplement. So the study found that if you took 0.8mg/d of folate combined with 0.4 mg/d of B12 there was an increased incidence of cancer? OK, that’s twice the RDA of folate, but it’s almost 200 times the RDA of B12. I see the RDA of B12 as 2.4 micrograms/d for people 14 years of age. Have I dropped a decimal place or two? Somebody seems off by a couple orders of magnitude. My multi only has 500 micrograms of folate and 6 micrograms of B12. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-vitamins/786596/87 "2017-05-16T17:47:17Z")
My vitamin/mineral supplement strategy: First, I assume that my diet is at least reasonably adequate, and that I am getting more-or-less all the vitamins and minerals I need. But I have a bottle of vitamin/mineral supplement tablets, the kind that have 100% of just about everything. I take one half tablet a day, on the theory that this should cover any dietary deficiencies. So I’m certainly not taking megadoses (or even kilodoses) of anything. Exception: On the specific advice of a doctor, I am taking some large pile of D3/Calcium supplement. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-vitamins/786596/88 "2017-05-16T20:00:58Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > (the STBX) I have not heard of this vitamin. ---
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-vitamins/786596/89 "2017-05-16T22:52:02Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > Not a useful analogy because we dissemble foods into their individual components during digestion, so the assembly/packaging is irrelevant. That’s not really an accurate statement. Different foods don’t just break down into their components. They can also affect how other foods are treated by the body. For instance, iron absorption is improved by Vitamin C, but inhibited by calcium and oxalic acid. Note that Vit. C is destroyed by heat. So if you need iron, eat your spinach raw, add a squirt of lemon juice, and don’t put cheese on your salad. But if you need to avoid iron, cook your spinach, and maybe add some cheese to it. > [@Surreal](#): > > How about some specifics?What are these magical things in vegetables that can’t be synthesized into a pill? How about fiber for a start? It’s not magical, but if you try to put it into a pill, it’s not going to do what you need fiber to do. You can’t synthesize something into a pill that you don’t know about, and **science doesn’t know everything**. Take lycopene - it became well known in the mid-90s when research found that it seemed to help prostate cancer outcomes. But in the 70s it was considered poisonous. And now review of follow-up research is finding that there isn’t any solid evidence that it helps cancer. The science of human nutrition is very new and very complex. I doubt we’ve scratched the surface of how our system reacts to food. I seriously doubt that we have a fraction of understanding of how such things as chewing and taste impact food absorption. Chewing releases saliva, which causes starches to break down, but what if swallowed saliva causes other processes to happen in the stomach or intestines? That’s something you will never get from a pill. **Science doesn’t know everything** , but if you’re relying on a pill rather than on food to provide what you need, that means you’re relying on science to know everything, AND, you are relying on the supplement manufacturers to be honest… something that isn’t a given when they aren’t being required to prove that they even have what they say they have. ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-vitamins/786596/90 "2017-05-17T00:59:29Z")
So help me out here. If I’m “low carbing” (around 30 a day) what vitamins and minerals might I start lacking in? I eat three cups of green vegetables, various types of meat, nuts, flax, and quite a bit of full fat dairy every day. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-vitamins/786596/91 "2017-05-17T11:49:55Z")
> [@Zyada](#): > > **Science doesn’t know everything** , but if you’re relying on a pill rather than on food to provide what you need, that means you’re relying on science to know everything That’s really silly. You may as well say if you’re trying to eat a balanced diet, you’re relying on science to know everything. Where do you think people get ideas about what a balanced diet consists of? People sometimes take supplementation because they are told they have a deficiency or have a good reason to believe they may be deficient in one or more nutrients. Same reasons one may change their diet. It doesn’t mean any of those people are relying on science to know everything. > [@](#): > > So if you need iron, eat your spinach raw, add a squirt of lemon juice, and don’t put cheese on your salad. > > But if you need to avoid iron, cook your spinach, and maybe add some cheese to it. Sounds like someone is relying on science. > [@](#): > > How about fiber for a start? It’s not magical, but if you try to put it into a pill, it’s not going to do what you need fiber to do. Actually, it is put in pills and it does do what people need it to do. > [@](#): > > Take lycopene - it became well known in the mid-90s when research found that it seemed to help prostate cancer outcomes. But in the 70s it was considered poisonous. Cite for that last part? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-vitamins/786596/92 "2017-05-17T16:32:20Z")
> [@Zyada](#): > > How about fiber for a start? It’s not magical, but if you try to put it into a pill, it’s not going to do what you need fiber to do. . You can indeed get fiber from a pill, but you have to take a good number of them. ---
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-vitamins/786596/93 "2017-05-17T22:31:24Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > That’s really silly. You may as well say if you’re trying to eat a balanced diet, you’re relying on science to know everything. Where do you think people get ideas about what a balanced diet consists of? Not _exactly_ the same thing. A person who believes that they can take a pill to get all of their nutritional needs filled is relying on science knowing not only every single micronutrient they need but at what levels and potentially in what combinations. Whereas, a person who follows the American Cancer Society’s recommendation to eat a wide variety of foods\*, including a lot of fruits, vegetables, and whole grains (because they’ve found that people who’ve followed this diet are less likely to get cancer and have better outcomes if they do get cancer) isn’t relying on science to know every single detail but to have found a broad trend that works. > **[American Cancer Society Guideline for Diet and Physical Activity](https://www.cancer.org/cancer/risk-prevention/diet-physical-activity/acs-guidelines-nutrition-physical-activity-cancer-prevention/guidelines.html)** > > Cancers caused by excess weight, alcohol, and physical inactivity might be prevented by following the ACS recommendations on nutrition and physical activity. \*Ok, American Cancer Society isn’t saying that now (although I believe they did in the past) but Berkeley does: [http://www.berkeleywellness.com/healthy-eating/food/slideshow/14-keys-healthy-diet](http://www.berkeleywellness.com/healthy-eating/food/slideshow/14-keys-healthy-diet) > [@](#): > > Not all the nutrients and other substances in foods that contribute to good health have been identified > [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > People sometimes take supplementation because they are told they have a deficiency or have a good reason to believe they may be deficient in one or more nutrients. Same reasons one may change their diet. It doesn’t mean any of those people are relying on science to know everything. I’m not arguing against people who take supplementation because they have been advised to do so. I’m not even arguing about taking a supplement if you think said supplement is going to be beneficial to you. Knock yourself out, I try different supplements for problems I have without talking to my doctor first if I hear it might help a problem I have I am specifically arguing against the person who said > [@](#): > > It’s also worth noting that if there’s something in natural foods that magically makes them healthy, whatever it is they contain could be extracted and put in pill form. How is eating an actual tomato healthier than eating a supplement that contains the appropriate concentrations of vitamins A, C, B6, K, manganese, potassium, phytosterols, and polyphenols? > [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Sounds like someone is relying on science. You’re damned right, Skippy. I believe in science and I was trained in how to do science. I rely on it all the time (it’s definitely better than the alternative!) But I recognize that we have a LONG way to go, especially in the areas of human biology > [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Actually, it is put in pills and it does do what people need it to do. Yes, it will make you go to the bathroom Do we have experimental proof that it reduces incidence of bowel cancer? How about reducing cholesterol? Controlling blood sugar levels? Helping people lose weight? > [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Cite for that last part? Lycopene in news stories in the 90s: [NewspaperArchive |lycopene historic newspaper articles including obituaries, births, marriages, divorces and arrests.](https://newspaperarchive.com/tags/lycopene?&pci=7&ndt=by&py=1990&pey=1999/) Lycopene in news stories in the 70s: [NewspaperArchive |lycopene historic newspaper articles including obituaries, births, marriages, divorces and arrests.](https://newspaperarchive.com/tags/lycopene?page=4&pci=7&ndt=by&py=1970&pey=1979/) (lots of duplicates in both of these) I want to know about the guy who drank a half gallon of tomato juice every day - what happened? Did he just turn orange, or did something worse happen? I am, however, too cheap to buy a subscription to the website to find out. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-vitamins/786596/94 "2017-05-17T23:36:50Z")
Did you know that they did a study where they loaded Lycopene into a shotgun and shot it at various animals? 100% fatal, every time. That Lycopene is dangerous stuff. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-vitamins/786596/95 "2017-05-18T16:31:36Z")
> [@Zyada](#): > > Not _exactly_ the same thing. A person who believes that they can take a pill to get all of their nutritional needs… I can’t speak for Surreal, but I don’t think that’s what he meant to say. I think he was referring back to the first part of his statement: _if there’s something in natural foods that magically makes them healthy, whatever it is they contain could be extracted and put in pill form._ and wasn’t trying to claim that we could live on pills. But I could be wrong about his intent. > [@](#): > > Yes, it will make you go to the bathroom > Do we have experimental proof that it reduces incidence of bowel cancer? I’m not sure we have proof that fiber from any source does that. > [@](#): > > How about reducing cholesterol? It seems so. > **[Randomized double blind clinical trial on the effect of oral α-cyclodextrin...](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4941029/)** > > This single center, double-blinded, cross-over, placebo controlled clinical trial investigated the effect of oral α-cyclodextrin (α-CD), a soluble dietary fiber, on blood lipid and lipoprotein levels in healthy human subjects. α-CD, ... > [@](#): > > Controlling blood sugar levels? The same. > **[Soluble fibers from psyllium improve glycemic response and body weight among...](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5062871/)** > > Water-soluble dietary fibers intake may help control blood glucose and body weight.The objective of the study was to determine whether soluble fiber supplementation from psyllium improves glycemic control indicators and body weight in type 2 diabetic... > [@](#): > > Helping people lose weight? It’s worked on rodents. I didn’t look long enough to see if there were experiments looking for weight loss with supplemental fiber for weight loss on humans. > [@](#): > > Lycopene in news stories in the 90s: [NewspaperArchive |lycopene historic newspaper articles including obituaries, births, marriages, divorces and arrests.](https://newspaperarchive.com/tags/lycopene?&pci=7&ndt=by&py=1990&pey=1999/) > > Lycopene in news stories in the 70s: [NewspaperArchive |lycopene historic newspaper articles including obituaries, births, marriages, divorces and arrests.](https://newspaperarchive.com/tags/lycopene?page=4&pci=7&ndt=by&py=1970&pey=1979/) > > (lots of duplicates in both of these) How about you pick one? ---
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-vitamins/786596/96 "2017-05-18T21:06:33Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > I can’t speak for Surreal, but I don’t think that’s what he meant to say. I think he was referring back to the first part of his statement: > > _if there’s something in natural foods that magically makes them healthy, whatever it is they contain could be extracted and put in pill form._ > > and wasn’t trying to claim that we could live on pills. But I could be wrong about his intent. If you don’t even know what I’m arguing against, why are you arguing with me? Also, he said: > [@](#): > > It’s also worth noting that if there’s something in natural foods that magically makes them healthy, whatever it is they contain could be extracted and put in pill form. How is eating an actual tomato healthier than eating a supplement that contains the appropriate concentrations of vitamins A, C, B6, K, manganese, potassium, phytosterols, and polyphenols? Sounds to me like he’s arguing that you should be able to get food in a pill. > [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > I’m not sure we have proof that fiber from any source does that. WebMD ([Weight Loss & Diet Plans - Find healthy diet plans and helpful weight loss tools](http://www.webmd.com/diet/features/fiber-cancer#1)) > [@](#): > > A large one published in 2007 found that people who ate a high-fiber, low-fat diet had the same amount of colorectal adenomas, small tumors that can sometimes turn into cancer, as those who didn’t eat that way. > > Yet when the researchers zeroed in on study participants who really stuck to the diet, as opposed to those who were less consistent, they did find a link between eating lots of fiber and fewer tumors, says Electra Paskett, PhD, director of cancer prevention and control at The Ohio State University Comprehensive Cancer Center. > > “Fiber is critical for colonic health,” says Brett E. Ruffo, MD, a clinical assistant professor of surgery at Stony Brook University Hospital. Which gets back to my basic thesis Science doesn’t know everything. There’s still a lot of research to be done. > [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > It seems so. > [Randomized double blind clinical trial on the effect of oral α-cyclodextrin on serum lipids - PMC](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4941029/) > The same. > [Soluble fibers from psyllium improve glycemic response and body weight among diabetes type 2 patients (randomized control trial) - PMC](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5062871/) > It’s worked on rodents. I didn’t look long enough to see if there were experiments looking for weight loss with supplemental fiber for weight loss on humans. I will give you these, even though single studies are not as conclusive as meta-analysis of multiple studies. It’s worth noting on this general subject that studies on pills have fewer variables than studies on diet, as it’s MUCH easier to get people to take a pill daily than to change what they eat, and the pill is much less complex. Thus, it’s a little more clear cut whether a supplement will help than a diet change. That doesn’t mean that supplements are better, just that they provide more reliable data. > [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > How about you pick one? Jeez dude, how fricken lazy do you have to be to not even be bothered to click on a link and scan a page. It’s not like what I referred to is that hard to find on the pages. So here: From the 90s, the first page > [@](#): > > … Lycopene, a red pigment, is a strong antioxidant … > … the primary natural source of lycopene - are less likely to get prostate cancer… Both of those lines showed up at least twice.\* From the 70s first page > [@](#): > > …Poisonous lycopene occurs naturally in tomato juice, yet you would have to drink a half gallon daily for several years to… This showed up in three separate articles on what I saw\* - When I say they showed up multiple times, I’m not saying that seeing this multiple times reinforces it’s impact, I’m saying that anyone\* who took the time to bring up the link\* would not have had a problem finding these quotes. Results seem to change because this time I didn’t see the guy who drank 1/2 gallon of tomato juice every day until the second page this time around ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2017, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-vitamins/786596/97 "2017-05-19T02:27:01Z")
> [@Zyada](#): > > If you don’t even know what I’m arguing against, why are you arguing with me? :rolleyes: What Surreal posted that you responded to regarding relying on science to know everything: _How about some specifics?What are these magical things in vegetables that can’t be synthesized into a pill?_ The first part of your response: \*How about fiber for a start? It’s not magical, but if you try to put it into a pill, it’s not going to do what you need fiber to do. You can’t synthesize something into a pill that you don’t know about, and **science doesn’t know everything.** \* Cite? What is your evidence that fiber in pill form will not do what it does for you when in food? > [@](#): > > WebMD ([Weight Loss & Diet Plans - Find healthy diet plans and helpful weight loss tools](http://www.webmd.com/diet/features/fiber-cancer#1)) No! Not even close. You asked for “experimental proof” that fiber supplements can reduce colon cancer, implying that there is this level of proof for fiber in food. You link to a WebMD article which talks of studies that find no evidence, yet cherry pick one that “shows a link” and they also ate a lower fat diet. The very next sentence that you omitted from posting is: **Still, no one can say for sure whether fiber helps prevent colorectal cancer** If there ever is enough evidence, then guess what else is fiber? Yeah, the stuff that comes in pills. > [@](#): > > Which gets back to my basic thesis > Science doesn’t know everything. There’s still a lot of research to be done. Huh? It seems like you’re admitting your WebMD article didn’t show what you wanted it to. > [@](#): > > I will give you these, even though single studies are not as conclusive as meta-analysis of multiple studies. Then are you going to retract this statement?: _How about fiber for a start? It’s not magical, but if you try to put it into a pill, it’s not going to do what you need fiber to do._ > [@](#): > > Jeez dude, how fricken lazy do you have to be to not even be bothered to click on a link and scan a page. What the fuck? You made a claim, it’s not my job to find your cite for you. > [@](#): > > It’s not like what I referred to is that hard to find on the pages. Then why couldn’t you find it? > [@](#): > > So here: > From the 90s, the first page > > Both of those lines showed up at least twice.\* > > From the 70s first page > This showed up in three separate articles on what I saw\* > > - When I say they showed up multiple times, I’m not saying that seeing this multiple times reinforces it’s impact, I’m saying that anyone\* who took the time to bring up the link\* would not have had a problem finding these quotes. > > Results seem to change because this time I didn’t see the guy who drank 1/2 gallon of tomato juice every day until the second page this time around What you said: _Take lycopene - it became well known in the mid-90s when research found that it seemed to help prostate cancer outcomes. But in the 70s it was considered poisonous._ You speak of research finding it to help in the 90s, but it was considered poisonous in the 70s. You find some article that you don’t link to, where “someone” claims that the amount of lycopene found in a half gallon of tomato juice taken every day for years will… do something as evidence of lycopene being considered a poison in the 70s? You for some reason don’t finish with the quote either. Finding “someone” making a claim in the 70s doesn’t back up YOUR claim about what lycopene was considered in the 70s. Also, lots of things are poisonous at mega doses, but aren’t labeled “poisons.” ---
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2017, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-vitamins/786596/98 "2017-05-19T15:57:08Z")
**x-ray vision** , let’s get down to the core issue. Do you really think that science knows everything there is to know? ---
**Author:** ![WildBlueYonder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ce7236/32.png) [@WildBlueYonder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildBlueYonder)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-vitamins/786596/99 "2017-05-23T10:53:46Z")
The other day I looked at the RDA on my bran flakes, 100% of needed iron. Looked at Raisin Bran this morning, only 25% I still dont understand why my levels would be chronically low. I am pretty sure I get plenty of iron thru the foods I eat each day-maybe the doctor thinks I eat crap all day. IDK. She probably thinks I am a hypochondriac any way so I’ll see if she asks me about the iron levels. I’ll try to stumble over a few words when I am there too. I really thought the B-12 was helping my brain… ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-vitamins/786596/100 "2017-05-23T15:45:39Z")
> [@WildBlueYonder](#): > > The other day I looked at the RDA on my bran flakes, 100% of needed iron. > > Looked at Raisin Bran this morning, only 25% > > I still dont understand why my levels would be chronically low. They may not be. In the OP you wrote that your doc says you have slight anemia and your doc wants you to supplement with iron. That’s a good way to possibly fix the situation because low iron levels can cause anemia, but anemia is not synonymous with “low iron.” Anemia is a lack of healthy red blood cells or hemoglobin and that can be caused by more than iron deficiency. It’s possible you are consuming iron at levels that would be sufficient for most people and your body isn’t doing a good job at absorbing it into your blood stream. Sometimes it’s something like an intestinal disorder and sometimes just genetics. Sometimes anemia isn’t related to iron consumption or absorption at all. Even so, be aware that the iron supplemented in cereals is non-heme iron which isn’t absorbed as well as the heme-iron found in clams and oysters, organ meats, beef, pork and other foods. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-vitamins/786596.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/take-your-vitamins/786596.md?page=6)