# Taking a cop's word in law enforcement incidents **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 16, 2014, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-a-cops-word-in-law-enforcement-incidents/695717 "2014-08-16T22:55:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-a-cops-word-in-law-enforcement-incidents/695717/21 "2014-08-19T13:12:50Z")
Neither of you has seen Cool Hand Luke, have you? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-a-cops-word-in-law-enforcement-incidents/695717/22 "2014-08-19T13:14:17Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > It doesn’t exactly take the steadiest hand in the West to not put 6 bullets into a guy who has his hands up. > > I’m generally pro-cop in these scenarios, but I’ve seen more than one instance of police thoroughly cocking up the situation, so I’m keeping an open mind here. There is always more heat than light this early in these investigations. The fact that it’s lead to civil unrest and a legitimate conversation about police misconduct with respect to minority communities is only serving to stoke opinion and obscure facts. I’m with **Sage Rat** on this. It’s entirely likely that both the cop and the victim are at fault. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-a-cops-word-in-law-enforcement-incidents/695717/23 "2014-08-19T13:15:23Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Neither of you has seen Cool Hand Luke, have you? LOL. Nope. \ :o ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-a-cops-word-in-law-enforcement-incidents/695717/24 "2014-08-19T13:36:26Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > LOL. Nope. \ :o [You’ve certainly heard the reference being made](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_we%27ve_got_here_is_(a)_failure_to_communicate). ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-a-cops-word-in-law-enforcement-incidents/695717/25 "2014-08-19T13:38:55Z")
That I have. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-a-cops-word-in-law-enforcement-incidents/695717/26 "2014-08-19T13:52:16Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#): > > “I didn’t rape her, she’s had sex with dozens of men" Game, set, /thread. ---
**Author:** ![Renee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/renee/32/287_2.png) [@Renee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-a-cops-word-in-law-enforcement-incidents/695717/27 "2014-08-19T14:19:48Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > I’d like to debate the attitudes behind that: namely, that a criminal’s word is not to be trusted, especially not above a law enforcement officer’s, and that criminals, ones they cross that threshold into breaking any law, are capable of doing anything. There is quite a range of “breaking the law.” But if a person has committed a robbery, how has he _not_ proven himself to be untrustworthy? I mean, would you trust him around a stack of your money? I suppose you could argue that lying and stealing aren’t the same thing, but a person who is willing to hurt another person (one half his size) in order to steal cigars…no, I don’t trust him. Why should I? That isn’t to say that I necessarily believe the cop is trustworthy, either, but of the two, I KNOW one isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![eman77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f04885/32.png) [@eman77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eman77)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-a-cops-word-in-law-enforcement-incidents/695717/28 "2014-08-19T14:40:53Z")
So finally the officer’s version of the story is leaking out, and boy is it a doozy. > [@](#): > > Wilson said 18-year-old Michael Brown and his friend Dorian Johnson were walking in the middle of the street, so Wilson pulled up in his patrol car and told them, “Come on guys, get out of the street,” but they refused, saying they were almost at their destination. > > He kept rolling beside them and they cursed at him. He finally pulled over, at which point Josie said she believes he called for backup. > > “He pulled up ahead of them. And he was watching them, and then he got a call-in that there was a strong-arm robbery,” she said. That was the convenience-store robbery shown on surveillance tapes of Brown grabbing a handful of cigars and pushing a clerk away when Brown and Johnson left without paying. > > The pair matched the description of the robbers, and also appeared to be holding cigars. > > “So he goes in reverse back to them. Tries to get out of his car. They slam his door shut violently. I think he said Michael did,” Josie said. “And then he opened his car again. He tries to get out. And as he stands up, Michael just bum-rushes him, just shoves him back into his car, punches him in the face. And then Darren grabs for his gun. Michael grabs the gun, at one point he’s got the gun turned totally against his hip. And Darren shoves it away, and the gun goes off.” > > Brown and Johnson then ran, Josie said, and got about 35 feet away. > > “Darren’s first protocol is to pursue. So, he stands up and yells, ‘Freeze!’ Michael and his friend turn around. And Michael starts taunting him, ‘Oh, what are you going to do about it? You’re not going to shoot me.’ And then he said all the sudden he just started to bum-rush him. He just started coming at him full speed. And so he just started shooting. And he just kept coming. So, he really thinks he was on something because he just kept coming.” > > The final shot was in the forehead, Josie said, and Brown fell about two or three feet in front of Wilson. > > CNN said it verified with its police department sources that the story Josie told on the radio was the same as Wilson’s version of events. CNN called the stories an exact match. > > Read Latest Breaking News from [Newsmax.com](http://Newsmax.com) [http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/ferguson-police-officer-version/2014/08/18/id/589457/#ixzz3Aqh6KoeV](http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/ferguson-police-officer-version/2014/08/18/id/589457/#ixzz3Aqh6KoeV) > Urgent: Should Obamacare Be Repealed? Vote Here Now! [http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/ferguson-police-officer-version/2014/08/18/id/589457/](http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/ferguson-police-officer-version/2014/08/18/id/589457/) I know many people won’t like the NewsMax link so here’s the CNN link > **[Caller says she has the officer’s side of the Ferguson shooting | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2014/08/18/us/missouri-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1)** > > The officer who killed Michael Brown says the teen rushed at him in the moments before the shooting, according to an account phoned into a radio station. Well that should change things, huh? It’s hard to argue that it’s ridiculous since we do have videos of the robbery moments before. Brown could’ve been a kid feeling like he’s on top of the world and untouchable. Although in most cases the truth is somewhere in the middle, but oh how wide the middle is now. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-a-cops-word-in-law-enforcement-incidents/695717/29 "2014-08-19T14:46:54Z")
It’s not the Newsmax part. It’s the “unidentified caller known only as Josie” part. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-a-cops-word-in-law-enforcement-incidents/695717/30 "2014-08-19T14:50:01Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > So it seems that many (not necessarily here) are arguing that if Michael Brown did indeed steal from that store and assault that clerk, then that makes it much more likely, if not probable, that he did try to kill the police officer later, and that therefore his shooting was justified self defense. > > I’d like to debate the attitudes behind that: namely, that a criminal’s word is not to be trusted, especially not above a law enforcement officer’s, and that criminals, ones they cross that threshold into breaking any law, are capable of doing anything. I’m not saying that such reactions aren’t natural, or that they don’t have understandable origins, or even that they’re always wrong. I just think that they’re dangerous, as countless cases of police brutality and corruption in the past have shown us. > > What say you? Ever get a traffic ticket. Your word against the cop’s. Who wins? > [@Bozuit](#): > > There are multiple witnesses, though. If they all say Brown didn’t do _x_, it doesn’t matter how many times he has done _x_ before. If. Police allegedly claim that [more than a dozen witnesses to the shooting of teenager Michael Brown have backed up the account of the incident offered by the officer](http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2014/08/reporter_says_more_than_a_doze.html) ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-a-cops-word-in-law-enforcement-incidents/695717/31 "2014-08-19T14:57:47Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Police allegedly claim that [more than a dozen witnesses to the shooting of teenager Michael Brown have backed up the account of the incident offered by the officer](http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2014/08/reporter_says_more_than_a_doze.html) Your cite is basically a re-tweet. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-a-cops-word-in-law-enforcement-incidents/695717/32 "2014-08-19T14:59:50Z")
That’s true. It’s a retweet of a tweet from a STL Post-Dispatch reporter. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-a-cops-word-in-law-enforcement-incidents/695717/33 "2014-08-19T15:19:07Z")
> [@Renee](#): > > There is quite a range of “breaking the law.” But if a person has committed a robbery, how has he _not_ proven himself to be untrustworthy? I mean, would you trust him around a stack of your money? I suppose you could argue that lying and stealing aren’t the same thing, but a person who is willing to hurt another person (one half his size) in order to steal cigars…no, I don’t trust him. Why should I? That isn’t to say that I necessarily believe the cop is trustworthy, either, but of the two, I KNOW one isn’t. This; I think most reasonable people will understand that an officer might lie to CYA, but unless you can demonstrate it an officer will always get the benifit of doubt over someone who has just committed a crime. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-a-cops-word-in-law-enforcement-incidents/695717/34 "2014-08-19T15:25:01Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > That’s true. It’s a retweet of a tweet from a STL Post-Dispatch reporter. What’s your point? Promulgating a story of questionable provenance is not shedding light on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Renee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/renee/32/287_2.png) [@Renee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-a-cops-word-in-law-enforcement-incidents/695717/35 "2014-08-19T15:27:24Z")
Honestly, sometimes this place feels populated by crazy people. “Oh sure, this guy just beat up a guy and stole his stuff, but it’s not like he’s a bad person or anything! Why would you even suggest that he’s not an upstanding, honest guy, worthy of your complete trust? Probably the cop had no reason at all to shoot at him, because cops go around shooting people for no reason constantly!” It baffles me. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-a-cops-word-in-law-enforcement-incidents/695717/36 "2014-08-19T15:29:39Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Promulgating a story of questionable provenance is not shedding light on the subject. It’s as valid as any other reporting, and in any event, I was countering a hypothetical (“if they all say …”) ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-a-cops-word-in-law-enforcement-incidents/695717/37 "2014-08-19T15:39:52Z")
There’s a huge leap between cowering a tiny store clerk and confronting the police. Because he did the first doesn’t mean he likely did the other. That said, if they decided to ignore an officer’s directive right after a petty robbery that is profoundly stupid. Assaulting an officer even more so. We’ve discussed videos before where stupid people decide they can interact with police in just such a foolish way. It does seem clear that the police responded to the public in a very poor manner. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-a-cops-word-in-law-enforcement-incidents/695717/38 "2014-08-19T15:42:44Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > That’s true. It’s a retweet of a tweet from a STL Post-Dispatch reporter. What’s your point? Unverified quote from a source with a potential agenda. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-a-cops-word-in-law-enforcement-incidents/695717/39 "2014-08-19T15:57:14Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Unverified quote from a source with a potential agenda. Don’t bother… apparently… > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It’s as valid as any other reporting… ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-a-cops-word-in-law-enforcement-incidents/695717/40 "2014-08-19T17:03:27Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Neither of you has seen Cool Hand Luke, have you? Cuttin’ the heads off parking meters. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-a-cops-word-in-law-enforcement-incidents/695717.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-a-cops-word-in-law-enforcement-incidents/695717.md?page=3)