Taking a stand on moral relativism

Most people, sure, but we’ve had a few rather insightful people over the years write their ideas down for the rest of us to ponder on at our liesure. :slight_smile:

This is patently false. Evolution, as a concept, was not a factor in public or private discourse in any significant way for centuries. That you now have accepted a worldview that makes the conclusion inevitable says more about you than the universe, to this relativist.

Justifications come to an end. Simply because to justify everything I would need an infinite hierarchy of epistemologies doesn’t mean I must create them, or that they exist at all. This argument (yours) is quite similar to one in Stanford’s Encyclopedia of Philosophy’s (http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html) demanding that relativism is self-defeating, or that relativism in one sense demands realism in another. Justifications come to an end; in naturalized epistemologies, that end might be behavior:

Naturalized epistemologies are funny things; they’re almost circular in that they presuppose the existence and possession of knowledge in seeking knowledge, but not so circular in the sense that they name specific propositions are true. Modern science is one such idea, and in fact naturalized epistemology is largely considered as simply science. Naturalized morality, a version of which you very much seem to be proposing, would then of course fall under the same methodology. more Wittgenstein:

This is almost the charge of the relativist, that eventually you will reach a point where justifications are no longer possible, and at this point we can still observe variations. Naturally speaking, we can push any person to explain their moral behavior and justify it, but eventually (we’re inside naturalism, remember) we’ll get to the point where they just act, that is simply what they do. But people do act differently, and we can’t justify all of our activity. If these activities, this isness not shouldness of behavior, is in fact the top of our hierarchy or the bedrock of our grounds, and they differ, then there is no hope for the absolute system. Point of fact, we are different.

Now I lean towards naturalistic explanations myself, but I don’t find an overwhelming urge to think there is thus an ultimate method of evaluation. My underlying assumption that the universe has a definite nature does not make the pluralities that exist go away, and it does not offer me a way to make them go away. I have to live with them. They are all around me, in the way people think microwave buttons should function to whether or not we should wage war on the other side of the globe. I think naturalized epistemologies are powerful tools, and I think they serve a practical function, but you might say that that is because I happen to value practicality in many ways, and if you ask me to justify this I will reach a point where I can no longer. I will appeal, analytically, to assumptions I have made; naturalistically, I will simply say, “This is how I am.” Logically, starting with the idea of reality as a definite thing leads us toward foundationalism, a series of propositions from which we may deduce properties, and these propositions form a system. Euclidean and non-Euclidean geometries are two examples of foundational perspectives. Naturalistically, starting with the idea of reality as a definite thing leads us to ways of life that we learned before we gained critical faculties; that is, we were taught how to reason and how to judge before we could reason and judge, or perhaps it is biological in nature, shaped by the very formation of our brains: neither case assures us of soundness absolutely, and because we may cause our own extinction many ways over through a series of rational choices (“it seemed like a good idea at the time”), the very fact that we are alive now is not an indication of [natural] moral soundness.

This is simply unfounded. If no method of permanent survival exists, there is no universal goodness at all and your argument defeats itself by defining something that doesn’t exist. While moral skepticism is something we should keep in mind in all moral arguments, reducing absolute standards to nonsense in potential cases should indicate a flaw in reasoning.

If more than one method of survival exists, then even with an objective standard plural systems are possible and relativism remains unfettered; granted, you’ve managed to create a form of relativism where there are multiple valid systems, but it is quite another to say they will all cooperate if people discover them independently, so we haven’t exactly ruled out moral dilemmas or guaranteed that their interaction won’t undermine their validity.

If one system exists, relativism remains until such time as we discover the system. Its existence can be assumed, but the argument you present is then trivial and uninteresting: I will simply assume it doesn’t and we make no headway. You want to show us flies out of the bottle, we can’t get outside just because you say only one opening exists, we have to find it. Until then, we’ll look in our own way (appeal to naturalistic grounds) or the way we think is appropriate given our assumptions (appeal foundational grounds). You may even go so far as to laugh at us and say the foundational grounds and the natural grounds are “really” the same thing, but don’t be surprised when we brush you off until such time as it is demonstrated to both our satisfactions: something, if you reflect on it, that will be pretty hard to do! :wink:

so neither the goals, nor the means to get to them, are my design but rather the universe’s design. Gotcha. Nope, no teleology there at all… :stuck_out_tongue:

It is almost like we’re in this maze, and I’m saying, “Any one of these could be the way out, we need to recognize this and not begrudge others for choosing one path or another without due consideration” and you’re saying, “Yeah, but it is a maze, and a way out exists!”

How does that get us out of the maze? How do we know there aren’t two ways out? Three? What if there aren’t any ways out and all paths lead back to the beginning?

I appreciate your assumptions, but I don’t find the strength you seem to in them, Aide.

Nope, I don’t say that. And I didn’t say that. Read it again. It’s in pretty simple English for the most part. Read it again. Read the black stuff this time.
Ah, well. I assume. You assume… Let’s assume that at least for now we ain’t gonna agree on just what is being assumed by just who, and be on our merry ways.

It has been fun, and I’ve learned a thing or two. I’m glad I spent some time in this thread.:cool:

I would have expected nothing less. I have no doubt whatsoever that you think your argmuments make perfect sense, and I’m sure you must be frustrated that nobody else here can grasp what you feel is painfully obvious. Given the choice between you having a valid insight that nobody else is capable of sharing and you simply being mistaken, it is only natural that you would side with yourself instead of admitting the possibility that you could be wrong.

That doesn’t change anything, however.

Barry

But we are not looking for the “source” of morality! We are looking for a way of determining which of the many possible moral systems is the “correct” one, or if there even is a single “correct” system. We are looking for a way to determine whether we should follow this system, that system, no system, or any system.

Quit taking “should” out of this.

So you keep saying. Once again, can you give some examples? I understand what your are saying, but I reject your assumption that this can actually be done with any degree of reliability whatsoever, or that it has any degree of practicality whatsoever.

Do your really believe that? Gee, how deterministic of you. Aside from the fact that I utterly refute this unproven assumption of yours, once again all this does is attempt to explain why we do what we do. If choice is but an illusion, it is impossible for us to choose to act differently than the way we do. Which once again brings us back to the whole “is-ought” violation that you refuse to cop to.

If choice is an illusion, then why bother trying to convince us that your theory is correct? My choice to not believe you is apparenly but an illusion, and nothing you can possibly say will ever change the inevitability of my disbelief. I mean, you can explain why I don’t believe you [So can I. Hint – it has something to do with your misuse of English and your inability to reach a logical conclusion from stated premises. But I digress], but you can’t affect it.

Barry

** I’m disappointed in you, eris. We’ve been over this ground before: it doesn’t matter whether we were aware of the concept of evolution, the point is that certain assumptions inevitably lead to evolution. From the basic concepts of Euclidean geometry, we can show that there are only five Platonic solids in three-dimensional space. That result – and ALL results about geometry – are eternally and universally true, regardless of when and where we actually realize it. Trig worked before Pythagoras came up with his theories. Musical notes manifested certain mathematical relationships long before anyone understood the theory underlying music.

I meant precisely what I said – unless you reject some very basic premises, you will (eventually) be forced to accept the concept of evolution. Whether you are aware of this reality at any particular time is irrelevant.

** Not at all. I reject your relativism because it’s endlessly self-referential. In order to construct a working method, we need to turn to something outside human conviction.

Obviously, we can stop thinking at any time and choose to accept any step in the process as our answer. But when we can find genuine stopping locations, why would we bother?

** On what level? You’re all made of the same basic components, which work in the same basic ways. We’re all parts of the universe. The properties underlying your mind are the same as those that underly a computer, or a supernova, or a grain of sand.

** What makes you think that they should go away in the first place?

Do the laws of chemistry require there to be only one element? Do the laws of biology require there to be only one species? Do the laws of physics require there to be only one design that fulfills an engineer’s specifications?

We’re not looking for the Grand Unified Theory of Everything, erislover. We’re just trying to understand the nature of morality and how it arises.

** Not at all. If such an outcome is inevitable, then there is no ultimate goodness, as you note. No strategy is better than any other. No perspective is more meaningful, more accurate, or more true than any other. Nothing matters. All is irrelevant. And this nothingness is absolute.

Your point being?

** They’re not nonsense. It’s simply not a possibility you’re ready to accept: that absolutely nothing matters.

** Ah, yes. Vorlons versus Shadows. Each strategy seems to work extraordinarily well by itself, but the two are virtually incompatible.

So? You keep complaining that any system we come up with is going to have limitations, flaws, and problems. No kidding. But the ultimate morality is not a function of our thoughts any more than the laws of physics are dependent on our theories.

Of course you’re part of the “design” of the universe. Do you imagine you can think differently?

Does a theory about the universe partake of the eternal truth? There can be no theory without the universe, as the theory itself is merely a subset of that which exists, so the answer would seem to be yes. But as a mere subset, no theory can ever possibly represent the universe itself, so the answer would seem to be no.

Does a dog have Buddha mind?

** We’re in a maze, and we know nothing about the nature of the maze. “How shall we get out?” you demand. “How can we know whether we can get out at all?”

“We’ll have to explore the maze,” I say. “We’ll have to look and see what we can see.”

“No!” you tell me. “We want to know what the maze is without looking, and know without knowing! We want to choose the correct path.”

“That’s nice,” I say, “but you’d better get started on your exploration.”

No, no, Mr. Fewl.

Teleology assumes that the universe has a goal towards which it is progressing. I am saying that this is false: the universe has no goals, it creates systems which have their own goals. It creates patterns that have “intention” and “purpose”. The universe has none of these things.

** But if we look for the source of “shoulds”, won’t it necessarily lack them itself?

It’s as if we’re trying to understand human congition, and how ideas interact, and we begin looking at information theory and neuroscience, but you complain “there aren’t any experiences or thoughts there, only causality and mindless process!” No kidding.

** Tacoma Narrows. Challenger. Anything and everything in engineering, medicine, physics, chemistry, biology, mathematics…

** Yes, you’re utterly correct. If choice is a reality, it’s utterly impossible for us to control what we choose; it’s a matter of probability, nothing more.

Choice or choicelessness? What difference does it make? We’re screwed either way.

** The structure of the universe leads inevitably to my thinking it would be a good idea, it seems.

** I dispute your claim that I misuse English. I use it far more precisely than is normally done, yes.

Uh-huh… and this undermines relativism… how?

You’re right, because stuff does matter to me, and what matters to me isn’t contingent upon eternal existence. Whether or not I will die, things matter to me now.

So there exists more than one system.
I’m done.

Design. Purpose. Goal. Teleological.

I repeat. Read the black stuff.

I now offer an album as a soundtrack to close out this thread. Nothing Matters And What If It Did

** And is this “mattering” correct or not?

People can and have valued everything under the sun. So are their opinions correct or not?

You keep saying this as if it mattered.

The answer to the question “What is the square root of four?” is the set of numbers that satisfies the equation. It doesn’t matter one bit that this set includes more than one number.

The Vorlons and Shadows are incompatible. Perhaps one will destroy the other. Perhaps they’ll ignore the existence of the other. Perhaps they’ll both destroy each other. Perhaps they’ll create a new ethics that is stronger than either of their philosophies. Who can tell? And who can know whether what they ended up doing was actually the right choice?

No one. We can’t tell. You’re not willing to accept these answers, so you reject the method that produced them.

Regardless of what either group does, the nature of the universe that their actions can be compatible with does not change. THAT is the absolute and ultimate morality. It has nothing to do with our perceptions or beliefs at all.

** I’ve read it, Mr. Fewl. The meaning of “design” in evolutionary biology bears the same relationship to “design” in intent as “theory” in science does to “theory” in everyday language.

Go read some layman’s works on evolutionary theory, please.

And, for my next trick, I will now demonstrate that black = white through the use of “precise” language:

With regard to visible light, “white” is defined as the sum of all colors, whereas “black” is defined as the absence of color.

With regard to pigment, however, “white” is the absence of color and “black” is the sum of all colors.

Therefore, if you assume that pigment and light are equivalent terms since both are “colors,” it becomes blindingly obvious to all that “black” (defined as “the absence of color”) is the same as "white (also defined as “the absence of color”). Alternatively, “black” (which is defined as “the sum of all colors”) is the same as “white” (defined as “the sum of all colors”).

Any way you look at it, black = white. Q.E.D. End of discussion. Period. Anybody who disagrees is simply “missing the point.” So there! Nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah, NYAH, nyah!!!

Barry

That, 'zilla, is a perfect example of the dangers of mixing terminology from two distinct fields when the same word is used in each.

“Color” is a property of our nervous system, not the light that reaches our eyes. Everyone speaks of color as if it were something inherent in the object; everyone “knows” that color is a property of objects.

But they’re wrong.

Exactly. Now, if only we could get you to stop mixing terminology from such distinct fields as morality (the study of what “ought to be”) and physics (the study of what “is”), we’d be all set, wouldn’t we?

Somehow, though, I suspect that is not going to happen…

Barry

P.S. Where’s my plutonium?

No godzillatemple, black is white, regardless of how you see it. And I know this because I see it. See?

** Now, if only we could get you to stop mixing the vernacular and technical meanings of “morality”, we’d be all set.

I’m sorry – where would one find this “technical” meaning of morality to which you refer? And if this meaning is somehow different from that which is being used by every other person in this thread, does it make any sense to continue your argument (since, by definition, nobody will understand it anyway)?

And please, spare us the “the meaning is obvious” crap.

Barry

Oh, and while you’re at it, please examine your use of the word “good.” Ask a Christian philosopher who believes that God provides the fundamental basis for objective morality what the definition of “good” is, and he’s likely to claim that “good” is defined as “that which comes from God.” His arguments are therefore circular, since his definition assumes the point he is alleging to prove.

As a moral relativist, I might choose to define “good” as “conducive to happiness” or “conducive to smooth interpersonal relations.” If defined thusly, I can therefore argue that morality must be relative, since different cultures have different customs, and what is conducive to happiness and smooth interpersonal relations may vary widely from one culture to another. And I can also argue that, if my definition of “good” is the “correct” definition, then whether or not a society is able to survive for extended periods of time is irrelevant to the discussion of morality, since one can have a “short but good” life as well as a “long but bad” life.

In the same way, you have chosen to define “good” in a way that leads to a particular conclusion. If you define the word “good” as “conducive to survival,” then you are justified in claiming that morality (the study of what is “good” and “bad”) is grounded in evolutionary principles. However, that is an arbitrary definition of “good” chosen specifically to support your argment. Not a “technical” definition, but merely a self-serving one.

I’ve just gone ahead and reread this thread from begining to end. Over and over again you have stated that morality is based on absolute principles that will invariably lead “bad” systems to fail and allow “good” systems to prosper. To justify this, you make numerous assumptions, including:
[ul][li]The “purpose” of morality is the perpetuation of the self/species.[/li]
[li]“Goodness” is defined as “that which is conducive to survival” (or, to be more “accurate,” that, “as time progresses to infinity, opinions about the nature of goodness will converge on that which is conducive to survival”).[/li]
[li]There’s no fundamental distinction between a “moral choice” and any other kind of behavior, choice, or action.[/li]
[li]Once we are able to describe all human behavior with reference to the absolute principles that govern evolution, we can then attempt to determine which of the many possible moral systems are “better” by evaluating which systems are more conducive to survival. This process may be crude in less than infintite time periods, but is apparently no more crude than the sciences of biology or phsyics.[/ul][/li]I cannot refute your first two assumptions, and can only state that (a) I don’t agree with them, and (b) no appeal to the “correct use of technical language” will change the fact that nobody else here agrees with them either. That doesn’t necessarily make you wrong, but it would make life a lot easier if you would at least acknowledge that you are making assumptions that are fundamentally different from those held by most people.

Your third assumption, that there is no fundamental distinction between a “moral choice” and any other kind of behavior, choice, or action, is once again dependent on your assumption that the sole purpose of morality is survival. Even so, however, it seems to be completely counter-intuitive. Even if you assume that all actions derive from evolutionary principles, there still seems to be a clear difference between choices such as “I choose not to steal because I don’t think it’s fair” and “I ‘choose’ not to eat rotten meat because the smell makes me vomit.” There is a clear difference between a biological impulse over which we have little or no control and a conscious decision to do or not do something. Unfortunately, I have no way of proving this assertion other than pointing out that it is obvious to everybody else but you, and you have already stated your belief that choice is but an illusion in the first place.

With regard to your last assumption (i.e., that understanding the underlying can somehow lead to a practical manner of determining which moral systems are “correct”), I don’t see how you have justified this. When asked how one should evaluate a moral system your response was, “You choose the one that works best. If you can’t determine which one works best, choose one – any one! – and see if it works better or worse than the others.” This is not, in my mind, a “practical” manner at all. I realize that, based on your other assumptions, you believe it to be the only manner by which moral systems can be evaluated in real time, but then we’re back to circular reasoning. I also find it extremely disingenuous for you to keep claiming that no scientific theory can produce better results in real time than your evolutionary theory of morals.

If one were to assume that morality derives from God, it is fairly easy to evaluate a society’s moral system by determining whether the individuals in that society follow God’s commandments, and a “perfectly moral” society would be one where all people obeyed God’s commandments. One need not wait an infinite amount of time to make this determination.

If one were to assume that morality derives from a rational decision to provide for the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people, or from a rational decision to provide fro smooth interpersonal relationships, then it is fairly easy to evaluate a society’s moral system by determining whether the majority of people are happy or whether the majority of people are able to interact smoothly. And a “perfectly moral” society would be one where all people are happy or where all people interact smoothly. One need not wait an infinite amount of time to make this determination.

If, however, one assumes that morality derives from evolutionary principles and that “good” is defined by “what is conducive to survival,” one can only come up with a crude evaluation based on limited evidence, and one would need to wait an infinite amount of time to find out if the evaluation was correct. In addition, there are so many other variables involved that determining whether survival is the result of the moral system or other factors becomes problematic. Now, based on your underlying assumptions, this limited method of determination may be all that is available, but that still doesn’t make it “practical” in any meaningful sense of the word.

In sum, if you want to merely describe the source of morality and claim it is based on evolutionary principles, I’ll disagree with your assumptions but concede that your conclusions would be valid if the assumptions were true. If, however, you want to claim that your theory actually allows us to practically determine which moral systems are better than others, I’ll say you’re full of it.

Regards,

Barry