# Taking back what the Nazis stole. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786 "2013-11-25T22:58:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/21 "2013-11-26T07:31:30Z")
[Falun Gong](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong), founded 1992, uses it. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/22 "2013-11-26T09:19:25Z")
I was born, and was proud to be born in a country known as “Land if the Aryans” but truth be told, I’ve never met any Iranian-Americans who feel the need to proclaim themselves “Aryans” or demand to “reclaim” the word. For that matter, I’m not sure how many Navajo or Indians really use the swastika anymore. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/23 "2013-11-26T10:08:53Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > (snip) > > In India it is unlikely they much noticed or cared a symbol they have used for thousands of years was taken, modified, and then used by a very heinous political group in Germany for all of 13 years. In 100 years I suspect they will still be using the traditional swastika in India and the visibility/linkage with Nazism will be far less in the public consciousness. > > I don’t think very many people would actually mistake the Hindu swastikas I have seen in pictures with a symbol of Nazism. It was an issue during the war itself, several British Indian army units forbade usage, at least informally. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/24 "2013-11-26T12:06:32Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > In my culture, the swastika is the symbol of ultimate evil. Why should some other culture’s take on it supersede mine? Are symbols of evil somehow lass valid than symbols of good? No, but we can recognize that it means something different in another culture and take it in the spirit that it’s intended. Indians have been using the swastika to mean good luck and “l’chayim” for millennia. I say take as evil when it’s meant to be hateful and as good when it’s meant to be good. Why should that horrible little man ruin yet another good thing? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/25 "2013-11-26T12:25:06Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > No, but we can recognize that it means something different in another culture and take it in the spirit that it’s intended. Indians have been using the swastika to mean good luck and “l’chayim” for millennia. I say take as evil when it’s meant to be hateful and as good when it’s meant to be good. Why should that horrible little man ruin yet another good thing? To you it may be a good thing - to me it’s an evil thing. I have the same right to hate the swastika as anyone else has the right to venerate it. Naturally, I wouldn’t condemn anyone using it in good faith a part of their cultural customs. It’s just I don’t see the need to change the negative perception another culture may have of it. There’s nothing wrong with negative perceptions. ---
**Author:** ![jinty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dbc845/32.png) [@jinty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jinty)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/26 "2013-11-26T12:36:34Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Did they ever stop using it? I can imagine that maybe they did in the West, but that’s not where most Hindus are. I visited Hyderabad in 2011 and passed by a Hindu cemetery where plenty of the gravestones were adorned with swastikas. Aside: even though I knew the Hindus had first dibs AND were using it as a symbol of good luck, it was still… slightly jarring to see. Like everyone else, I wonder why the OP feels we need these particular symbols. (Are there any symbols that are universally and unambiguously regarded as “good”? In most cases they seem to be just another way of separating “us” and “them”. Crosses, crescents, sickles, hammers, flags… you name it.) ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/27 "2013-11-26T13:02:15Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > In my culture, the swastika is the symbol of ultimate evil. Why should some other culture’s take on it supersede mine? Are symbols of evil somehow lass valid than symbols of good? No, but we can recognize that it means something different in another culture and take it in the spirit that it’s intended. Indians have been using the swastika to mean good luck and “l’chayim” for millennia. I say take as evil when it’s meant to be hateful and as good when it’s meant to be good. Why should that horrible little man ruin yet another good thing? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/28 "2013-11-26T13:05:03Z")
Because he ruined it. You can’t change the past, no more than you can bring the people he killed back to life. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/29 "2013-11-26T14:01:43Z")
> [@jinty](#): > > Aside: even though I knew the Hindus had first dibs AND were using it as a symbol of good luck, it was still… slightly jarring to see. :rolleyes: Really? You cannot identify the cultural context in which they are being used? It’s “jarring” that people are using their own symbols, in their own way in their own country. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/30 "2013-11-26T15:43:13Z")
True story here. As a young articling law student years ago, I was working on my apprenticeship with a lawyer who did a lot of municipal law work. One of his clients came to him with a very odd problem. They wished to build a community centre, with a playground, classrooms, and meeting spaces to serve their ethnic community. The problem: for some reason they did not understand, the local municipal planning board was actively hostile to them. They were throwing up roadblocks, refusing perfectly reasonable requests, and outright refusing to process required paperwork. What could be the matter? Were they a bunch of racists - given that our clients were from southern India, and rather dark-skinned? The answer to all of their problems was obvious from the letterhead on which they wrote to their lawyer for advice: on it, they identified themselves with a name that included the word “Aryan”, and it was decorated with a heading including a swastika! The clients were genuinely mystified by the problem here - namely, that the planning authority thought they were some sort of neo-Nazis, rather than rather traditional Indians from India. The solution was a short essay written to the planning authority describing the history and cultural symbols of this group. It worked. Like magic, the wall of hostility melted away. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/31 "2013-11-26T16:01:05Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Really? You cannot identify the cultural context in which they are being used? It’s “jarring” that people are using their own symbols, in their own way in their own country. Yes. Because our first reaction to stuff like this is emotional, not intellectual. I spent a lot of time in Japan, and never really “got used” to seeing it at every little shrine you’d see all over the place. It was jarring. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/32 "2013-11-26T16:33:03Z")
Well jeez. Here I thought what was objectionable about what the Germans did was the genocide and the invasions, not the usage of a particular symbol. If they had used a cross, would you have such a reaction? Or a sword? A star? A picture of a couple of flowers? Or everytime you use Hugo Boss products. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/33 "2013-11-26T16:37:16Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Really? You cannot identify the cultural context in which they are being used? It’s “jarring” that people are using their own symbols, in their own way in their own country. Certainly if you’re not used to it. I’m sure most Americans and especially most African-Americans would be quite shocked if when traveling through Spain or Italy, they saw people engaging in a religious ritual dressed in white robes and a white tri-corned hat. I remember the audience in the awful Tom Hanks movie about Opus Dei reacting in shock when his character showed the photographs of that happening. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/34 "2013-11-26T16:43:25Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Well jeez. Here I thought what was objectionable about what the Germans did was the genocide and the invasions, not the usage of a particular symbol. If they had used a cross, would you have such a reaction? Or a sword? A star? A picture of a couple of flowers? Or everytime you use Hugo Boss products. The symbol evokes the atrocities. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/35 "2013-11-26T16:53:12Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I don’t think very many people would actually mistake the Hindu swastikas I have seen in pictures with a symbol of Nazism. Yeah…no I think there really is little difference.[http://farm1.static.flickr.com/56/139365724\_a0b48ee38c.jpg?v=0](http://farm1.static.flickr.com/56/139365724_a0b48ee38c.jpg?v=0) ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/36 "2013-11-26T17:03:27Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Why bother? Do we need these things for some reason? Germany’s Ministry of Transportation is looking to update their brand and they want something that speaks of efficiency. …Too soon? ---
**Author:** ![jinty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dbc845/32.png) [@jinty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jinty)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/37 "2013-11-26T17:13:35Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Really? You cannot identify the cultural context in which they are being used? It’s “jarring” that people are using their own symbols, in their own way in their own country. I absolutely CAN identify the cultural context, thanks. And you twisted my words to make it sound like I was jarred by the fact they were “using their own symbols, in their own way”. That wasn’t my point at all. I was pointing out my instinctive, emotional reaction - baked into me by a lifetime’s exposure to Hollywood & UK war films, TV documentaries etc etc - to the symbols, which was entirely at odds to my intellectual reaction. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/38 "2013-11-26T17:26:18Z")
Let’s take back that [Bellamy Salute](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute)/[Olympic Salute](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_salute#Olympic_salute) the Nazis stole! ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/39 "2013-11-26T17:35:17Z")
> [@jinty](#): > > I absolutely CAN identify the cultural context, thanks. And you twisted my words to make it sound like I was jarred by the fact they were “using their own symbols, in their own way”. That wasn’t my point at all. I was pointing out my instinctive, emotional reaction - baked into me by a lifetime’s exposure to Hollywood & UK war films, TV documentaries etc etc - to the symbols, which was entirely at odds to my intellectual reaction. I simply repeated your words. Did not twist anything. You are it seems rather ethno-centric in outlook, by your own admission. Is it really so difficult to grasp that other people have different outlook on things? Or are you dominated by your emotions? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/40 "2013-11-26T17:53:57Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I simply repeated your words. Did not twist anything. You are it seems rather ethno-centric in outlook, by your own admission. Is it really so difficult to grasp that other people have different outlook on things? Or are you dominated by your emotions? Eh, you kinda did. **jinty** wrote: > [@jinty](#): > > I visited Hyderabad in 2011 and passed by a Hindu cemetery where plenty of the gravestones were adorned with swastikas. > > Aside: even though I knew the Hindus had first dibs AND were using it as a symbol of good luck, it was still… slightly jarring to see. The “it” was seeing gravestones adorned with swastikas. You wrote: > [@AK84](#): > > It’s “jarring” that people are using their own symbols, in their own way in their own country. He didn’t write that, and in fact explicitely noted that the Hindu population had every right to use it and did so as part of their own cultural practices. For most in the West, the swastika symbolizes the ultimate evil. That’s going to provoke an emotional reaction when one it seen, regardless of the context, and it’s not accompanied by some resentment toward Hindus or admonishment for them to change their ways. It’s not voluntary, either; see the [Implicit-association test.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicit-association_test) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786.md?page=3)