# Taking back what the Nazis stole. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786 "2013-11-25T22:58:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/41 "2013-11-26T18:47:05Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I simply repeated your words. Did not twist anything. You are it seems rather ethno-centric in outlook, by your own admission. Is it really so difficult to grasp that other people have different outlook on things? Or are you dominated by your emotions? You are reading way too much into what he or she wrote - stuff that, objectively, isn’t there. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2013, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/42 "2013-11-27T02:29:16Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Yeah…no I think there really is little difference.[http://farm1.static.flickr.com/56/139365724\_a0b48ee38c.jpg?v=0](http://farm1.static.flickr.com/56/139365724_a0b48ee38c.jpg?v=0) Interestingly enough, there’s probably been enough cross pollination from the western(i.e predominantly derived from Nazi) usage that modern and uninformed symbols of the Swastika in India may seem closer to the Nazi one. (btw the photograph you link to seems to have been chosen - by the guy who posted it, not you - for its similarity to the Nazi propaganda. It’s featured on a blog about the hidden history of the white race). Most of the Swastikas I’ve seen in my life are quite easy to tell apart from the Nazi symbol. They’ll have wavy tips, dots in the middle, and often be hand drawn. There is minimal awareness of Hitler and the Nazis in India beyond the cosmopolitan and well off urban dwellers. Even most/all of those don’t have the visceral connection to the Nazis that people in the west do. (Plenty of people use Hitler as meaning ‘disciplinarian’.) Our history books paint colonialism and hence the British/all Europeans of that time as evil, not the Nazis specifically. Can’t say I take much issue with that fact either frankly. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2013, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/43 "2013-11-27T05:47:41Z")
^ True the bit about colonialism, but thats a debate for another thread. However, I do have to take issue with your claim that the German usage is distinct. I have seen swatsikas drawn all over Taxila for instance and a couple could easily have been labelled “Nazi swatisikas”, and indeed IIRC the tilted way is actually one of the more common ones; the symbol itself is simply two rays of sunlight. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2013, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/44 "2013-11-27T08:02:56Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > ^ > True the bit about colonialism, but thats a debate for another thread. However, I do have to take issue with your claim that the German usage is distinct. I have seen swatsikas drawn all over Taxila for instance and a couple could easily have been labelled “Nazi swatisikas”, and indeed IIRC the tilted way is actually one of the more common ones; the symbol itself is simply two rays of sunlight. A cursory image search for Taxila Swastika throws up coins with really wavy swastikas. They don’t look anything like the Nazi version, but then they don’t really look like those I’ve seen either. I(and others, I think) are not saying it’s impossible for some Swastikas used in India to have been very similar to the Nazi version. The commonly seen one is quite distinct though. Obviously the basic shape of the symbol is similar(it is essentially the same symbol), but there are plenty of differences even to the not so discerning eye. I have read in places that the direction of the Nazi and Hindu Swastika is reversed, but haven’t the visual reasoning ability to see it for myself. Some further reading leads me to believe that this could easily be a post Nazi retcon. The reference to colonialism was to put the Nazi issue in perspective for people from the West who may expect similar attitudes towards the Swastika from Indians because the Nazis used it. The holocaust is taught as the great atrocity it was, but the space devoted to WWII comes at the fag end of the book on world history, and is a chapter long, of which the holocaust takes up a few pages. Most of our history teaching focuses on ancient and modern Indian history, especially the struggle for independence. The second world war is where the evil brits(whose evil-ness was much more alive to us, since we’d learnt about it at great length) and the more evil, but also more distantly evil, Nazis fought each other. Nazism simply doesn’t resonate emotionally for most people. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2013, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/45 "2013-11-27T09:55:04Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > In my culture, the swastika is the symbol of ultimate evil. Why should some other culture’s take on it supersede mine? Are symbols of evil somehow lass valid than symbols of good? Yeah - But the converse of that is why should your take supercede theirs? Particularly when a) they were using it first b) the nazi swastica is a bastardised version of the Hindu Swastica I must admit, when I first came to “the east” I did a double take when I saw such a prevalence of Swasticas - But as I have come to learn more about the history and the association I have become more accepting. My daughter attends a buddhist school with a swastica on the main gate. it is a very good school that emphasis filial obedience and self reliance. Why should less than two decades of the swastica being used as a “logo” for a madman trump all the history associated with the symbol? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/46 "2013-11-27T14:23:00Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > A cursory image search for Taxila Swastika throws up coins with really wavy swastikas. They don’t look anything like the Nazi version, but then they don’t really look like those I’ve seen either. I(and others, I think) are not saying it’s impossible for some Swastikas used in India to have been very similar to the Nazi version. The commonly seen one is quite distinct though. Obviously the basic shape of the symbol is similar(it is essentially the same symbol), but there are plenty of differences even to the not so discerning eye. > > I have read in places that the direction of the Nazi and Hindu Swastika is reversed, but haven’t the visual reasoning ability to see it for myself. Some further reading leads me to believe that this could easily be a post Nazi retcon. [Here you go.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika) Swastikas turn up all over the place, and date back at least 10,000 years. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2013, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/47 "2013-11-27T21:08:07Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Well, I imagine there are some Hindu groups that might like their swastika back. > [@Marley23](#): > > Did they ever stop using it? I can imagine that maybe they did in the West, but that’s not where most Hindus are. I had some Hindu neighbors who displayed a very small swastika on their front door. Caused a bit of a kerfuffle with some other neighbors. They left it up until they moved (job relocation, not driven out). ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/48 "2013-11-28T00:25:50Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Really? You cannot identify the cultural context in which they are being used? It’s “jarring” that people are using their own symbols, in their own way in their own country. I don’t get your snark, he’s saying he has a visceral reaction to the symbol. For example I saw a mural in the Philippines celebrating the KKK…the anti-Spanish anti colonialist Katipunan society. As an American, even though I KNEW they Katipunan had no connection to the klu klux klan, it is unnerving to see displays generating those initials. That said I don’t understand why Alessan feels the way he does regarding the Hindu useage of the Swastika. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/49 "2013-11-28T01:43:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > [Here you go.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika) > > Swastikas turn up all over the place, and date back at least 10,000 years. Er…wha? I’ll presume you’re not following the conversation or you’re responding to someone else. AK84 brought up Swastikas found in Taxila(an archaeological site in what is now Pakistan), a few of which he says were similar to the Nazi design. I was trying to corroborate that, and it seems like the general design was quite distinct. A general wiki link doesn’t add much. It’d be quite nice if you could point me to an authoritative source for what Swastikas looked like in Taxila. ETA: For reference, [here’s](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_WSQsPuiQ9Nc/SkUm_iAoGkI/AAAAAAAABmo/RDKxkwLc2nk/s200/nr.+19++II+Taxila+coins+BCE.jpg) an example of what Swastikas looked like in Taxila according to Google Image search. As I was saying, very clearly distinct from the Nazi symbol, although also distinct from contemporary Indian usage. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/50 "2013-11-28T02:40:27Z")
It’s worth noting that the 45 degree, hard edged swastika wasn’t the only version employed by the Nazis, either. [This](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:11._SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Division_%E2%80%9ENordland%E2%80%9C.svg) one was used by a panzergrenadier division, featuring rounded arms an a vertical orientation. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/51 "2013-11-28T03:49:48Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It’s worth noting that the 45 degree, hard edged swastika wasn’t the only version employed by the Nazis, either. [This](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:11._SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Division_%E2%80%9ENordland%E2%80%9C.svg) one was used by a panzergrenadier division, featuring rounded arms an a vertical orientation. That is interesting, I didn’t know they used different versions. Do you suppose people in general would identify the image you linked as a Swastika/Nazi imagery without being told? ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2013, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/52 "2013-11-29T03:31:29Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > None of these things, and **let’s not forget the f’in goosestep** , is anything less than a grotesque symbol of fascism to me. (My emphasis) This, of course, explains why the goose step is used by the armies of Russia, China, Cuba, Bulgaria, and other notably fascist countries. (Not to mention both Imperial and Weimar Germany…) ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/53 "2013-12-01T02:58:15Z")
In reading all kinds of strange books, I’ve seen plenty of Hindu swastikas that look like the Nazi version. Heck, a friend who’s part Indian has an Indian bracelet of beads decorated with swastikas. She’s dark skinned enough not to be mistaken for a Nazi, but still prefers not to wear the bracelet out of the house. A local firehouse (I think it’s in Jenkintown) has a stone swastika on the roof. It, of course, pre dates World War 2 and represents Thor’s hammer- and thus good fortune and protection from lightning. It’s still a little strange seeing it there. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/54 "2013-12-01T16:36:43Z")
How about [this building](https://maps.google.com/maps?q=loc:32.67657,-117.15827&hl=en&ll=32.676066,-117.157034&spn=0.005148,0.010568&t=h&z=17) on the Coronado Navy Base. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786/55 "2013-12-01T19:46:39Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > (My emphasis) > > This, of course, explains why the goose step is used by the armies of Russia, China, Cuba, Bulgaria, and other notably fascist countries. (Not to mention both Imperial and Weimar Germany…) Also, the Nazis gave up on the goosestep shortly after the war started. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-back-what-the-nazis-stole/674786.md?page=2)