# Taking John McCain at his word... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2008, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-john-mccain-at-his-word/463959 "2008-09-17T05:56:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-john-mccain-at-his-word/463959/21 "2008-09-17T17:48:46Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > No, No, and Nothing. Your entire assertion is illogical. > > Working harder/more is a solution, but it has nothing to do with the cause. But it’s NOT a solution, that’s my point. If it wasn’t a solution during the Depression why would it be a solution now? McCain is basically just telling people “fuck you, work harder.” He’s saying it in an oblivious way but that’s what he’s saying. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-john-mccain-at-his-word/463959/22 "2008-09-17T17:49:26Z")
I find it disingenous in the extreme whenever McCain praises the “hard working Americans” who are the “fundamentals of the economy,” considering he voted against raising the minimum wage to help those “hard working Americans” [nineteen times.](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/667/) Add in the fact that when the [Allard Amendment](http://bobgeiger.blogspot.com/2007/01/senate-gop-leadership-tries-to.html), which sought to abolish the Federal minimum wage entirely was put to a vote, guess [which little sweetheart](http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=1&vote=00024) voted for it? That’s right, good ol’ John McCain, who thinks you’re middle class if you make less than five million bucks a year, also thinks it’s a good idea to get rid of the federal minimum wage and leave it all up to the states to decide how little it’s okay to pay “hard working Americans.” In the case of Kansas, that would be [$2.65 per hour,](http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm#Kansas)currently. In Louisiana, which has no state minimum wage, employers could decide to pay workers even less than that, and if they don’t like it they can go somewhere else. Because people can always just pack their families up and move away from their homes at a moment’s notice, don’tcha know–probably they can go live in one of the other six houses every “hard working American” owns, right? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Fritz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c57346/32.png) [@Fritz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fritz)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-john-mccain-at-his-word/463959/23 "2008-09-17T18:10:39Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > **Diogenes the Cynic,** I think you tend to overestimate the average voter. > > Most people are, I believe, more inclined to go for a positive, simple, soundbite economic message, over one that is more accurate but nuanced. Voters are more likely to hear McCain’s message (in a news soundbite or headline), and think “hmmm… McCain seems upbeat and positive - he must have a plan. I like a guy with a plan.” > > Whereas if they listen to anything by Obama, they likely think “Huh? I don’t get it. This economy stuff he’s talking about sounds hard. And he doesn’t sound positive.” > > 99% of people really don’t go into any more depth than that. > > This is why blatant lying works so well. Very few people actually find out the truth, all they remember is the simple soundbite lie. “Democrats will raise your taxes!!!” Doesn’t matter if it’s not true. If you keep pushing and pushing and pushing that lie, it actually BECOMES the truth. > > The republicans are masters at, if you will, “creating their own reality.” You ignore this at your peril. This. Nailed it, I think. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-john-mccain-at-his-word/463959/24 "2008-09-17T18:40:59Z")
Holy crap–check out this nice little [ThinkProgress compilation](http://thinkprogress.org/wonkroom/2008/09/16/mccain-regulation-2/)of the McCain Deregulation/Regulation flipflops JUST from the past 24 hours. > [@](#): > > Here is a look at McCain’s back-and-forth on regulation during the last 24 hours: > > ``` > - Deregulation: McCain issued a statement Monday morning saying that “we cannot tolerate a system that handicaps our markets and our banks.” > > - Regulation: McCain’s campaign then put out an ad calling for “tougher rules on Wall Street.” > > - Deregulation: This morning, on NBC’s Today Show, McCain said, “Of course, I don’t like excessive and unnecessary government regulation.” > > - Regulation: Then, on CBS’s The Early Show, McCain said, “Do I believe in excess government regulation? Yes.” > > - Both: On CNBC’s Squawk Box, McCain said, “We don’t want to burden average citizens with over-regulation and government bureaucracy…And I’m proud to be a Teddy Roosevelt Republican, who said, ‘unfettered capitalism leads to corruption,’ and we’ve got to fix this.” > > ``` How in the hell does he do that without getting dizzy? Did he lose his inner ear ability to regulate his balance during a beating when he was a POW? (He was a POW, did you know that?) My head hurts… ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-john-mccain-at-his-word/463959/25 "2008-09-17T18:45:12Z")
To be fair, that Early Show quote sounds like he was probably saying “Do I believe it exists? Yes.” It takes a special kind of dumb to say you’re in favor of anything in excess, and McCain’s on that road but hasn’t reached it yet. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-john-mccain-at-his-word/463959/26 "2008-09-17T18:47:52Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > To be fair, that Early Show quote sounds like he was probably saying “Do I believe it exists? Yes.” It takes a special kind of dumb to say you’re in favor of anything in excess, and McCain’s on that road but hasn’t reached it yet. I’m too banjaxed to watch it all right now, but every one of those statements is a link to a source in the original article so if there’s some context to it you’re more than welcome to go see. Me, I have a headache… ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-john-mccain-at-his-word/463959/27 "2008-09-17T18:50:53Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > Holy crap–check out this nice little [ThinkProgress compilation](http://thinkprogress.org/wonkroom/2008/09/16/mccain-regulation-2/)of the McCain Deregulation/Regulation flipflops JUST from the past 24 hours. > > How in the hell does he do that without getting dizzy? Did he lose his inner ear ability to regulate his balance during a beating when he was a POW? (He was a POW, did you know that?) > > My head hurts… John S. McCain did not have a flop to flip for 5 1/2 years while a prisoner of the Viet Cong! ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-john-mccain-at-his-word/463959/28 "2008-09-17T18:52:45Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > I’m too banjaxed to watch it all right now… Not to go totally off-topic, but … “banjaxed?” I am intrigued by your ideas, and I’d like to subscribe to your newsletter. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-john-mccain-at-his-word/463959/29 "2008-09-17T18:52:56Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > I’m too banjaxed to watch it all right now, but every one of those statements is a link to a source in the original article so if there’s some context to it you’re more than welcome to go see. Me, I have a headache… The link ThinkProgress provides leads to the NY Times, and there’s nothing about the Early Show or any context to the quote. I’m giving that one a :dubious:. The rest of it is him desperately trying to straddle the Grand Canyon, though. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-john-mccain-at-his-word/463959/30 "2008-09-17T18:56:37Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > I find it disingenous in the extreme whenever McCain praises the “hard working Americans” who are the “fundamentals of the economy,” considering he voted against raising the minimum wage to help those “hard working Americans” [nineteen times.](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/667/) Add in the fact that when the [Allard Amendment](http://bobgeiger.blogspot.com/2007/01/senate-gop-leadership-tries-to.html), which sought to abolish the Federal minimum wage entirely was put to a vote, guess [which little sweetheart](http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=1&vote=00024) voted for it? > > That’s right, good ol’ John McCain, who thinks you’re middle class if you make less than five million bucks a year, also thinks it’s a good idea to get rid of the federal minimum wage and leave it all up to the states to decide how little it’s okay to pay “hard working Americans.” In the case of Kansas, that would be [$2.65 per hour,](http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm#Kansas)currently. In Louisiana, which has no state minimum wage, employers could decide to pay workers even less than that, and if they don’t like it they can go somewhere else. Because people can always just pack their families up and move away from their homes at a moment’s notice, don’tcha know–probably they can go live in one of the other six houses every “hard working American” owns, right? > > :rolleyes: When I was making minimum wage, I didn’t like the idea of minimum wage laws. I felt it was wrong to mandate that an employer has to pay a minimum amount if he can get people to work for less. I believed that if he paid too little, people would take other jobs, and he’d be forced to raise his wages to complete. I still believe that, now that I make more than minimum wage. My father believed that, and he was an immigrant who started life in a very poor country and came here with almost nothing. So it’s unclear to me why you sneeringly dismiss the views of anyone who disfavors the minimum wage. You know better than they do, I take it? There’s only one right answer, and it’s yours? ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-john-mccain-at-his-word/463959/31 "2008-09-17T19:04:10Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Not to go totally off-topic, but … “banjaxed?” > > I am intrigued by your ideas, and I’d like to subscribe to your newsletter. I’m not entirely sure where in heck I picked the term up, but it’s the metaphorical equivalent to having a shovel hit you in the back of the head with great force. Urban Dictionary notes it as having the connotation of “extreme drunkenness” but I don’t use it in that context. > [@Bricker](#): > > So it’s unclear to me why you sneeringly dismiss the views of anyone who disfavors the minimum wage. You know better than they do, I take it? There’s only one right answer, and it’s yours? When you refer to something I actually said, then perhaps we’ll have a discussion about it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-john-mccain-at-his-word/463959/32 "2008-09-17T19:11:27Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > When you refer to something I actually said, then perhaps we’ll have a discussion about it. Well, you said: > [@](#): > > I find it disingenous in the extreme whenever McCain praises the “hard working Americans” who are the “fundamentals of the economy,” considering he voted against raising the minimum wage to help those “hard working Americans” nineteen times. This assumes, with no discussion, the truth of the proposition that raising the minimum wage will help those hard working Americans. I point out that many people, including some people who make minimum wage, disagree with that assumption. And I say “sneeringly” both because your comments accept that debatable premise as gospel, and because of the tone in which you delivered them. So I’d say I _DID_ refer to something you actually said. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-john-mccain-at-his-word/463959/33 "2008-09-17T19:24:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, you said: > > This assumes, with no discussion, the truth of the proposition that raising the minimum wage will help those hard working Americans. > > I point out that many people, including some people who make minimum wage, disagree with that assumption. > > And I say “sneeringly” both because your comments accept that debatable premise as gospel, and because of the tone in which you delivered them. > > So I’d say I _DID_ refer to something you actually said. Very well, dear, you’re absolutely right–here I am all alone on my little island thinking that a minimum wage is a good thing and nobody at all agrees with me, whereas you, bless your heart, have your immigrant daddy to agree with you. I’m sure the two of you are great fun at family get-togethers. I shan’t bother to address your parsing of the term “sneeringly,” because it’s quite clear it’s something you’ve given great thought to. Well done, good job! Here’s a cookie for you! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-john-mccain-at-his-word/463959/34 "2008-09-17T19:25:52Z")
Let’s hope John McCain adopts **Bricker’s** approach and starts telling workers they don’t deserve a minimum wage and they can all take 2 bucks an hour or fuck off. I would strongly encourage Senator McCain to take that approach. By the way, McCain’s inept response to the financial crisis is starting to [show in the polls](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html). Obama has the lead back in most of the most recent national polls. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-john-mccain-at-his-word/463959/35 "2008-09-17T20:43:36Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > Very well, dear, you’re absolutely right–here I am all alone on my little island thinking that a minimum wage is a good thing and nobody at all agrees with me, whereas you, bless your heart, have your immigrant daddy to agree with you. I’m sure the two of you are great fun at family get-togethers. > > I shan’t bother to address your parsing of the term “sneeringly,” because it’s quite clear it’s something you’ve given great thought to. Well done, good job! Here’s a cookie for you! Thanks for the cookie. Now, I absolutely acknowledge that you’re not alone in your ideas about the minimum wage – a great many people agree that we should raise the minimum wage, and even more people agree that we should have a minimum wage at some level. My point, though, was not to suggest that you are alone in your view, but to rebut your implied contention that the opposite view is solitary. You deftly dodge this admission, though, suggesting that my only support is McCain and my dad. So, again: your critique of McCain assumes that it’s obvious that a minimum wage hike is a Good Thing, and reviles McCain for not supporting it when he claims to want to help the American worker. I am pointing out that it’s not obvious that a minimum wage hike would help the American worker, and that this view is not held solely by rich fat cats. Do you agree? ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-john-mccain-at-his-word/463959/36 "2008-09-17T20:54:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I am pointing out that it’s not obvious that a minimum wage hike would help the American worker, and that this view is not held solely by rich fat cats. I don’t want to interfere in the discussion going on here, but I have to ask…how can a raise in pay not help a worker? Last time I got a raise it sure didn’t hurt me. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-john-mccain-at-his-word/463959/37 "2008-09-17T20:58:19Z")
> [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > I don’t want to interfere in the discussion going on here, but I have to ask…how can a raise in pay not help a worker? Last time I got a raise it sure didn’t hurt me. The arguement is that if you pay the workers more, you will be able to employ less of them. That’s not, of course, taking into account the 20% annual pay increase for the CEO and board of directors. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-john-mccain-at-his-word/463959/38 "2008-09-17T21:01:05Z")
The best thing an increased minimum wage is for is increased hiring of illegals, and it will remain that way until and unless we start prosecuting the businesses for hiring them or making it an open border. Right now, business benefits enormously from having a steady flow of illegal aliens flowing into the country doing excellent work over extremely long hours for chicken feed wages. The more they have to pay American citizens, the more jobs they will hand over to these illegals, who, btw, lead Hobbesian lives risking their lives to send money back to their families. Until the American public is willing to accept slighly higher prices for things and American companies are forced to pay American labor for these jobs by the bizarre concept of enforcing the law, this will not change. A few citizens will benefit from the increased minimum wage, but I’ll bet you it will result in a net job loss. Sorry, **Aleq** , but you can only do it in conjunction with enforcement of immigration laws on business. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-john-mccain-at-his-word/463959/39 "2008-09-17T21:03:02Z")
> [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > I don’t want to interfere in the discussion going on here, but I have to ask…how can a raise in pay not help a worker? Last time I got a raise it sure didn’t hurt me. It will undoubtedly help those that get the raise. Those that are let go because their employer can’t afford to pay the new wage to as many employees will not be as happy. > [@Happy](#): > > That’s not, of course, taking into account the 20% annual pay increase for the CEO and board of directors. The problem is that the law affects not only Megamultinational Corp, Inc., which does indeed have a CEO and a board so rich they light cigars with $100 bills, but Brown’s Hardware Emporium, which consists of Mr. Brown, Junior Brown when he’s home from school, and seven full-time employees. Oh, wait. Make that six. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-john-mccain-at-his-word/463959/40 "2008-09-17T21:14:14Z")
If Mr. Brown can’t afford to pay his employees a reasonable wage, then he has no business trying to hire them. If he can’t afford his overhead, he needs to sell the buisness to someone who knows how to run it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-john-mccain-at-his-word/463959.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taking-john-mccain-at-his-word/463959.md?page=3)