# Taliban...what will they do now? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 4, 2011, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taliban-what-will-they-do-now/580760 "2011-05-04T22:15:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taliban-what-will-they-do-now/580760/21 "2011-05-05T01:05:46Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > By refusing to meet our demands they chose to go to war with the US. It was their choice, since we gave them an out and they refused to take it. > > If we had refused to meet another countries demands and this had caused us to go to war, does that mean we wouldn’t have any responsibility about the war?? > > I guess we could quibble about the definition…‘terrorist training base’ is probably the correct term. They were bases where people learned weapons training, but I guess if those people are terrorists or para-military types then ‘military bases’ might not be accurate. > > That’s their objective NOW. However, what did they get out of going to war with the US BEFORE they lost all their power in Afghanistan?? You make it seem like the Taliban were always fighting to regain their power, but the truth is they HAD pretty much absolute power in Afghanistan before they involved themselves in this affair (not absolutely true, as there were factions in Afghanistan opposed to the Taliban, much as there are factions there today who oppose each other). > > Seriously…if their association with AQ was so nebulous, why did they GO TO WAR WITH A MAJOR SUPERPOWER?? Why would they allow AQ to build training camps in their country…training camps where people learned weapons skills and how to be better terrorists? Why were several AQ members part of their official government?? > > -XT You’re acting like they knew for sure we’d go to war with them. Don’t forget, they had just visited Washington not too long before 9/11. Bush was a new President who talked a lot about during his campaign not interfering with other countries. They very likely thought he was bluffing. > [@mutantmoose](#): > > They’re not a political group with readily understandable aims and objectives. They live in a kind of dream world where “God is on our side” or where things “are destined to be”. > > Dying in battle whilst defending islam against the infidels is a thing to be desired or, at least, not shrunk away from. Basically there’s a whole religious perspective involved which might make them fight on even when normal logic suggests they should give up. > > If you beat the shit out of them then they will probably sit around by the campfire later and tell stories of the time when the infidels tried to kill Mohammed but failed. They’ll get themselves high on tales of religion and bravery. Dealing with a religious group isn’t like dealing with a purely political group who have rational demands. Yup. Watch the PBS Frontline “Behind Taliban Lines” (it’s on Netflix). There’s a part where a commander barks to one of his foot soldiers, through a walkie-talkie, “you guys are caring too much about your lives!” The foot soldier shouts back, offended, “we do NOT care about our lives!” You’re trying to use reason to understand unreasonable people, **xtisme**. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taliban-what-will-they-do-now/580760/22 "2011-05-05T01:30:10Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > You’re acting like they knew for sure we’d go to war with them. Don’t forget, they had just visited Washington not too long before 9/11. Really? Do you have a cite? > [@](#): > > Bush was a new President who talked a lot about during his campaign not interfering with other countries. They very likely thought he was bluffing. . His dad kicked Saddam out of Kuwait. The whole world was behind us. I’m not buying that line of reasoning. It’s not like this was some minor act of terrorism we were reacting to. This was the Mother of all terrorists acts. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taliban-what-will-they-do-now/580760/23 "2011-05-05T01:48:44Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > By refusing to meet our demands they chose to go to war with the US. It was their choice, since we gave them an out and they refused to take it. Memory hole (although admittedly this was awhile ago and I forget the specifics so as a data point): > [@](#): > > **Bush rejects Taliban offer to surrender bin Laden** > > After a week of debilitating strikes at targets across Afghanistan, the Taliban repeated an offer to hand over Osama bin Laden, only to be rejected by President Bush. > > The offer yesterday from Haji Abdul Kabir, the Taliban’s deputy prime minister, to surrender Mr bin Laden if America would halt its bombing and provide evidence against the Saudi-born dissident was not new but it suggested the Taliban are increasingly weary of the air strikes, which have crippled much of their military and communications assets. > > \ > > Mr Kabir said: “If America were to step back from the current policy, then we could negotiate.” Mr bin Laden could be handed over to a third country for trial, he said. “We could discuss which third country.” > > But as American warplanes entered the second week of the bombing campaign, Washington rejected the Taliban offer out of hand. “When I said no negotiations I meant no negotiations,” Mr Bush said. “We know he’s guilty. Turn him over. There’s no need to discuss innocence or guilt.” > > SOURCE: [http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/bush-rejects-taliban-offer-to-surrender-bin-laden-631436.html](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/bush-rejects-taliban-offer-to-surrender-bin-laden-631436.html) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taliban-what-will-they-do-now/580760/24 "2011-05-05T01:58:34Z")
Just looking at your cite there, though, it doesn’t seem they were willing to simply hand him over unconditionally. By the time the planes were dropping bombs it was a bit late in the day to try and negotiate terms, don’t you think?? (I will admit I hadn’t seen that fact, however…I didn’t know that, after we started bombing them, the Taliban even tried to negotiate. I wonder how serious they were, and who ‘the Taliban’ who made this offer were) -XT ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taliban-what-will-they-do-now/580760/25 "2011-05-05T02:12:46Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Just looking at your cite there, though, it doesn’t seem they were willing to simply hand him over unconditionally. By the time the planes were dropping bombs it was a bit late in the day to try and negotiate terms, don’t you think?? Sounds like the offer was made earlier as well. I dunno…I went out with friends tonight and had a few drinks. I am not ready to do more research at the moment to decide if it was a shitty offer or a serious one. Like I said, a data point. If others want to track it down fine by me. I suppose we could also get into a debate about whether an “unconditional” demand was appropriate or not. IIRC I personally, at the time, was in no mood for “conditional” demands to be made as regarded ObL but then, usually, politics is a practice in negotiation. If the Taliban were not happy seems we could have come to terms we’d be (mostly) happy with. Or they were stalling for time. Again…I dunno…just thinking out loud. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taliban-what-will-they-do-now/580760/26 "2011-05-05T02:13:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Really? Do you have a cite? I can’t find anything. I thought I remembered seeing pictures of them at the White House very early in the Bush presidency (before they blew up the Buddhas.) Either I’m misremembering, or failing to find it because references to them before they got “famous” are overwhelmed by post-9/11 references in every Google search I can come up with. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > His dad kicked Saddam out of Kuwait. The whole world was behind us. I’m not buying that line of reasoning. It’s not like this was some minor act of terrorism we were reacting to. This was the Mother of all terrorists acts. The Saddam/Kuwait thing was a very different situation, and even so, Bush 41 did not topple Saddam. Googling also lead me to this: > **[President Bush Warns 'Time is Running Out'](https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92358&page=1)** > [@](#): > > “The leaders are now listening to their people and to world opinion.” > Taliban officials added that they would release eight foreign relief workers if the U.S. stopped issuing threats against Afghanistan. The eight aid workers — four Germans, two Americans and two Australians — were arrested in August and charged with trying to convert Muslims to Christianity. The White House flatly rejected the offer, stating that it was a time for Afghanistan’s leaders to act and not negotiate. And further Googling revealed that they did release those people, in November, 2001. It’s not hard at all for me to believe that they were trying to call the United States’ bluff. Their stance on us has always been that we’re reluctant to fight and afraid of body counts. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taliban-what-will-they-do-now/580760/27 "2011-05-05T02:21:53Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > (…I wonder how serious they were, and who ‘the Taliban’ who made this offer were) Says it in my cite. Personally I have zero clue who this guy is or how much authority he had but FWIW: _“The offer yesterday from Haji Abdul Kabir, the Taliban’s deputy prime minister…”_ ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taliban-what-will-they-do-now/580760/28 "2011-05-05T08:34:41Z")
The Taleban tried twice to get rid of Osama, once after the embassy bombings, once after 9/11, but they would only hand him over to a Muslim country, not the USA. There was, in 2001 but before 9/11, a BBC documentary called “Langan Behind the Lines” in which Sean Langan travelled to Afghanistan, amongst other Islamic countries. Very informative, if you can find it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taliban-what-will-they-do-now/580760/29 "2011-05-05T13:35:33Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I can’t find anything. I thought I remembered seeing pictures of them at the White House very early in the Bush presidency (before they blew up the Buddhas.) Either I’m misremembering, or failing to find it because references to them before they got “famous” are overwhelmed by post-9/11 references in every Google search I can come up with. It never happened. We did not recognize the Taliban as the legitimate government. If they visited DC, they snuck in as tourists. > [@](#): > > The Saddam/Kuwait thing was a very different situation, and even so, Bush 41 did not topple Saddam. You’re right. 9/11 was 1,000 times worse. The idea that they didn’t think we’d invade is laughable. ---
**Author:** ![Scot\_Dutch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Scot\_Dutch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scot_Dutch)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taliban-what-will-they-do-now/580760/30 "2011-05-05T14:30:21Z")
As I recall, there was extensive negotiations between Bush Admin and the Taliban prior to 9/11 regarding pipeline building. Perhaps this is all conspiracy-stuff, I dunno. It’s discussed in this link, and studied in-depth in Vidal’s book “Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace”. > **[CRG -- Getting used to the idea of double standards: The underlying maxim is...](https://archives.globalresearch.ca/articles/MAD201A.html)** > > Tariq Ali. On a trip to Pakistan a few years ago I was talking to a former general about the militant Islamist groups in the region. I asked him why these people, who had happily accepted funds and weapons from the United States throughout the Cold... ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taliban-what-will-they-do-now/580760/31 "2011-05-05T16:27:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It never happened. We did not recognize the Taliban as the legitimate government. How do you know it never happened? These statements do not follow each other. We don’t recognize the Dalai Lama as the legitimate leader of Tibet and he visits all the time. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > You’re right. 9/11 was 1,000 times worse. The idea that they didn’t think we’d invade is laughable. You’re being ridiculous. Saddam Hussein invaded a sovereign and extremely strategic nation, and rattled sabers at our biggest ally in the region (Saudi Arabia). He had the 4th largest army in the world and was thought to be trying to expand and consolidate power in the region under a regime that was hostile to the west. The Taliban had nothing to do with 9/11 and has no interest in anything outside their borders. The idea that you’re being serious is laughable. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taliban-what-will-they-do-now/580760/32 "2011-05-05T16:50:12Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > How do you know it never happened? These statements do not follow each other. We don’t recognize the Dalai Lama as the legitimate leader of Tibet and he visits all the time. > > You’re being ridiculous. Saddam Hussein invaded a sovereign and extremely strategic nation, and rattled sabers at our biggest ally in the region (Saudi Arabia). He had the 4th largest army in the world and was thought to be trying to expand and consolidate power in the region under a regime that was hostile to the west. The Taliban had nothing to do with 9/11 and has no interest in anything outside their borders. The idea that you’re being serious is laughable. Is there a fire sale on bad analogies today? Yeah, our relationship with the Dali Lama is just like our relationship with the Taliban, pre 9/11/01. We had a near unanimous vote in Congress to invade Afghanistan. Not so for Gulf War 1. When come back, bring good analogy. If you want to make a case that the Taliban were caught unawares when we invaded, do it. But don’t bring in things that you think you might have read 10 years ago, or compare them to one of the most admired men in the world. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taliban-what-will-they-do-now/580760/33 "2011-05-05T17:01:30Z")
[QUOTE=Cisco] The Taliban had nothing to do with 9/11 and has no interest in anything outside their borders. The idea that you’re being serious is laughable. [/QUOTE] The Taliban might have had nothing to do with 9/11, but they were clearly harboring the people who did. When we demanded that they turn those people over to us (unconditionally) they refused. At a minimum they had to know we’d at least bomb the crap out of those terrorist bases in their country, and probably attack at least military targets of the Taliban as well. Only an idiot would have thought, in light of what was going on in the US after 9/11, that we’d do nothing but sit around with our collective thumbs up our asses. Thousands of Americans were dead. WE were convinced it was AQ that did it (and by then there was pretty conclusive evidence that they had). AQ was OPENLY in Afghanistan. I’m sorry, but if the Taliban were so stupid as to not realize that we weren’t bluffing, they were truly some of the stupidest people on earth. And I’m not buying that they were completely surprised by the fact that, failing to turn over AQ memebers and specifically ObL, that this would cause the US to retaliate. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taliban-what-will-they-do-now/580760/34 "2011-05-05T18:11:49Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Is there a fire sale on bad analogies today? > > Yeah, our relationship with the Dali Lama is just like our relationship with the Taliban, pre 9/11/01. We had a near unanimous vote in Congress to invade Afghanistan. Not so for Gulf War 1. > > When come back, bring good analogy. > > If you want to make a case that the Taliban were caught unawares when we invaded, do it. But don’t bring in things that you think you might have read 10 years ago, or compare them to one of the most admired men in the world. Seriously? That’s your response? Super cool story, bro. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taliban-what-will-they-do-now/580760/35 "2011-05-05T19:35:48Z")
> **[New Book Aims To Win Afghan Hearts, Minds](https://www.rferl.org/a/New_Taliban_Rule_Book_Aims_To_Win_Afghan_Hearts_And_Minds/1790002.html)** > > Mullah Mohammad Omar, the reclusive leader of Afghanistan's Taliban, has issued an updated book outlining the rules of conduct for his fighters. The guide is seen as an effort to consolidate his grip over the Taliban ranks and to offset the West's... The Taliban seek to control their homeland. How has OBLs death changed that? They want America to go home. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taliban-what-will-they-do-now/580760/36 "2011-05-05T19:38:46Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] The Taliban seek to control their homeland. How has OBLs death changed that? They want America to go home. [/QUOTE] They should, perhaps, consider disassociating themselves from all ties to AQ then…it might actually speed up the process of getting us out of there. It’s a crazy thought, I’m sure, but they might want to give it a try (and, in fact, according to the link I posted to earlier which you didn’t read, some of the Taliban factions ARE considering doing this). -XT ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taliban-what-will-they-do-now/580760/37 "2011-05-05T21:12:13Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Seriously? That’s your response? Super cool story, bro. So, you think the analogy between our relation ship with the Dalai Lama and our relationship with the pre-9/11 Taliban is a good one? That since we hosted the DL in the US it would make perfect sense that we would have hosted the Taliban leaders in the US? And you ask me if I’m being serious? Let’s just break that little baby down and see what’s what. Bro. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taliban-what-will-they-do-now/580760/38 "2011-05-05T21:39:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, you think the analogy between our relation ship with the Dalai Lama and our relationship with the pre-9/11 Taliban is a good one? That since we hosted the DL in the US it would make perfect sense that we would have hosted the Taliban leaders in the US? > > And you ask me if I’m being serious? > > Let’s just break that little baby down and see what’s what. Bro. You said the Taliban never came here because we didn’t recognize them as a legitimate government. I pointed out that we don’t recognize the Dalai Lama either, and he comes here. Everything else you’re saying is a figment of your fragile ego’s horror at the thought of being wrong on the sdmb. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taliban-what-will-they-do-now/580760/39 "2011-05-05T21:55:28Z")
But you still haven’t (afaik) shown any actual evidence that the Taliban came to the US to talk with the government. Right? So, it’s not a very good analogy, since, in fact, there IS evidence that the Dali Lama has come to the US to talk to the government. Now…if I missed your cite, I apologize, but assuming I didn’t, that would make it a bad analogy. -XT ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taliban-what-will-they-do-now/580760/40 "2011-05-05T21:57:11Z")
Well, I **hope** they will finally come and tally me banana! Daylight come, and me wan’ go home! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taliban-what-will-they-do-now/580760.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taliban-what-will-they-do-now/580760.md?page=3)