# Talk to me about tiers in D&D **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 20, 2012, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/talk-to-me-about-tiers-in-d-d/616308 "2012-03-20T13:41:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/talk-to-me-about-tiers-in-d-d/616308/61 "2012-03-25T00:57:53Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Except that some classes are so powerful that a player playing them can end up _accidentally_ stealing the spotlight. For instance, you might have a wizard player who’s trying to hold back their power by focusing mostly on illusions and things like haste, and thus actually end up being more powerful than they might otherwise. In my experience, use of haste is the exact opposite of stealing the spotlight: the players of the fighter PCs are constantly begging me to cast it, because it lets them go totally nuts, and my refusal to cast it is because I want to have some of the fun myself. This is an important distinction. Haste is, IMO, the single most powerful spell-for-its-level a wizard can cast, so if wizards are overpowered, surely this spell is part of the reason why. But casting this spell does not make the average wizard an unpleasant party member; on the contrary, casting it makes everyone have a lot more fun. The kinds of things that wizards can do that ruin the fun for other people are casting save-or-die spells, or summoning creatures tha can outfight the fighters (I remember the first time an augmented celestial rhino got in a powerful charge; the fighter’s player looked at me and said, I think I quote, “Dammit, you’re not supposed to do that much damage, that’s MY job!”), or otherwise turn other characters superfluous. Coming back to the tiers, then, maybe that’s part of the problem with this analysis. Since the goal is to get everyone to have maximum fun, analyzing relative power levels is something of a tangent. You need to figure out whether certain classes by default eliminate other players’ fun, not figure out which ones are most powerful. > [@Babale](#): > > People always say that wizards regularly steal the show by accident. I’ll be honest: I’ve never ever ever seen that happen. Well…years ago, I played a druid in a high-level game, and we knew we were going up against a beholder and several of its charmed minions. We planned out a careful battle sequence. Then the battle started, and as planned, I opened with a firestorm. The firestorm killed a few of the minions, and forced massive damage saves, taking out the beholder and everyone else. Everyone else just looked at me and said, “Well, okay then.” I felt kind of bad about it. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/talk-to-me-about-tiers-in-d-d/616308/62 "2012-03-25T03:08:43Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > [Five Geek Social Fallacies](http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html) is an article that every geek should read. My rule is this: I’m not particularly accepting of folks who don’t know how to play nice together. My job involves teaching social skills and putting up with those who don’t really have them; no way in hell is that what I’m going to do with my free time. Well, we’re talking about people with at least low-grade mental illnesses… possibly including me. I wasn’t going to to be too judgemental about it. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/talk-to-me-about-tiers-in-d-d/616308/63 "2012-03-25T03:13:14Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Interesting. It’s from a part of the forums I don’t often frequent, and it’s from 2008 (when 4E was already out)…at that point, I’d already started to shift some of my play focus to 4E. > > At any rate, my point is this: the OP shouldn’t assume that thinking about “tiers” in 3.x is the standard, or that every player does so (though it may be that the players with whom he’s playing are doing so). In short: if high levels of character optimizing, particularly for combat, is an important part of game play for you, it might be worth taking a look at. If you strongly dislike it when other characters of your level seem to be “better” than you, maybe it’s worth taking a look at. If neither of these describe you, don’t worry about it. I don’t think all players think in tiers, but the DM should certainly be aware of many classes strengths and weaknesses, or at least the PC’s current lineup’s. Otherwise it’s hell to make fun. If you have Wizards and Clerics in your party, so long as they’re not complete gimmick builds, you have a little more freedom since you can feel more confident that they have SOME tool to defuse the situation. A fighter or a rogue? You have to be more careful and focus on traps, things that can be hit, or at least know you have to be creative with the terrain (so you can have an arena where the fighter can use his Str to push a pillar onto them or something). Even the tier guides linked specifically said it wasn’t to bash classes or say you shouldn’t play them. The tier concept is just a guideline so you know how much wiggle room you have with campaign and encounter design, it prevents the game from become the exact same thing over and over. If you have a lower tier party you just know ahead of time that you may have to get a bit more creative. Wizards may be able to deal with an illusion-infested Illithid den, but a party of fighters might need an adventure beforehand to get immunity to illusions from The Sage, or know that you might have to place buttons around to turn the illusions off. It’s certainly not something the average player needs to worry about (though I’d argue that most average players have at least noticed a lot of the power disparities, even if they’re not convinced it’s a problem), but tiers are definitely something to keep in mind when creating an adventure. A player could even consider tiers when making characters to better aid the party and take design stress off the DM, though that should take a back seat to fun. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/talk-to-me-about-tiers-in-d-d/616308/64 "2012-03-25T03:36:08Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Well, we’re talking about people with at least low-grade mental illnesses… possibly including me. I wasn’t going to to be too judgemental about it. As my leisure time decreases, my willingness to be judgmental about who I spend that leisure time with increases :). In any case, any analysis of the game that’ll be useful to me will assume that the players have basic social skills. **Jragon** , that’s probably a decent point about flexibility. The more flexible a class is, the more you can design ill-defined problems for the PC to overcome. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/talk-to-me-about-tiers-in-d-d/616308/65 "2012-03-25T03:42:53Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > [Five Geek Social Fallacies](http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html) is an article that every geek should read. My rule is this: I’m not particularly accepting of folks who don’t know how to play nice together. My job involves teaching social skills and putting up with those who don’t really have them; no way in hell is that what I’m going to do with my free time. Where does the idea that all people who play RPGs are geeks come from? I do exactly 3 “geeky” things: 1. Play D&D 2. Post on the SDMB 3. Play video games And number 3 is pretty much mainstream nowadays. Other than that? I play/watch soccer (mostly watch), sport fight/watch sport fights (mostly fight), go out with friends, work out… Nothing “geeky”. I’ve only read Lord of the Rings because my teacher made me, I’ve never seen Star Wars nor do I particularly want too. No one who knows me would call me a geek. Of the people I’ve played D&D with over the years, two (brothers) played sports in school; Two were stereotypical “geeks” (Although only one of those was “weird”) and the rest were average people who don’t really fit any stereotype. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/talk-to-me-about-tiers-in-d-d/616308/66 "2012-03-25T03:49:44Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Where does the idea that all people who play RPGs are geeks come from? [But ye fuck ONE sheep…](http://jokes4all.net/sheep.html) As far as the world is concerned, Dungeons and Dragons is the ultimate sign of geekiness. Embrace it, I say. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/talk-to-me-about-tiers-in-d-d/616308/67 "2012-03-25T03:51:14Z")
I did think of one time thinking of tiers as a PLAYER is good – this is something that I think is obvious to a lot of players, but generally goes unspoken and isn’t usually formalized. Having a party with two fighters is generally rarer and more odd than a party with two wizards. Even more generally, you rarely see two instances of a co-functional lower tier class (Fighter + Barbarian), whereas seeing a Wizard + Sorcerer combo or something similar is much less odd. If tiers were utter bullshit, I don’t think this would really be the case. I’m not saying you can’t have fun with a four-fighter party or whatever other nonsense, a good group and DM can have fun with anything. It’s just that without deliberately doing a gimmick adventure, it generally behooves players to keep in mind that the higher tier more flexible classes are generally more acceptable to double-up on, because it causes everyone to feel like they bring something special to the game since it’s less likely you’ll be doubling up on the same role. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/talk-to-me-about-tiers-in-d-d/616308/68 "2012-03-25T04:46:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > [But ye fuck ONE sheep…](http://jokes4all.net/sheep.html) > > As far as the world is concerned, Dungeons and Dragons is the ultimate sign of geekiness. Embrace it, I say. Yeah, but that might change soon (For RPGs in general). Video games went Mainstream, didn’t day? I have a dream, where the only people viewed as geeks are LARPers! ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/talk-to-me-about-tiers-in-d-d/616308/69 "2012-03-25T04:54:19Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Where does the idea that all people who play RPGs are geeks come from? You’re talking about a different set of people from **smiling bandit** and **LHoD**. To wit: > [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Second, While I laud \*\*LHoDorkness’s \*\*generosity, I noticed that the players who really dedicate themselves to extreme power builds and dominating gameplay are either tinkers who like playing with the rules, **or social misfits who have a hard time reading and responding appropriately to others. Gaming in general has a lot of the latter, because it’s a structured and organized social situation which is already accepting of weird differences**. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > [Five Geek Social Fallacies](http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html) is an article that **every geek** should read. My rule is this: I’m not particularly accepting of folks who don’t know how to play nice together. My job involves teaching social skills and putting up with those who don’t really have them; no way in hell is that what I’m going to do with my free time. Not everyone who plays D&D is an ubergeek or even really a geek, but a not-insignificant portion are. And believe me, those social fallacies are in _full_ swing among the poorly-socialized geek population. They contribute to a lot of issues many ‘mainstream’ people don’t put up with. D&D gets hit with them more than video games because video games are not necessarily social while D&D is. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/talk-to-me-about-tiers-in-d-d/616308/70 "2012-03-25T06:40:56Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I have a dream, where the only people viewed as geeks are LARPers! _polishes shiny award for Best Roleplaying While Picking a Lock and Hanging Upside-Down by His Feet_ Why, yes. Yes, we are. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/talk-to-me-about-tiers-in-d-d/616308/71 "2012-03-25T16:25:41Z")
Count me in as one who doesn’t mind one bit being regarded as geeky. Well, technically, I prefer the term “nerd”, but that’s what most people mean when they say “geek”, anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/talk-to-me-about-tiers-in-d-d/616308.md?page=3)