Talk to me some Dune

[Irishman]

@Stranger_On_A_Train

Ornithopters, prescience-enabling ‘spice’, ‘Face Dancers’, the ecology of the sandworms/sandtrout, the abilities of the Bene Gesserit/Honored Matres, and all of the varied technologies utilizing the Holtzmann Effect are all scientifically nonsensical, although presented in a context in which they are taken as viable in the Dune narrative universe via literary conceit.

True. Herbert definitely had some weird metaphysical ideas about human mental capacities, even with the aid of psychotropics to assist breaking through. His concepts of prana and bindu are a stretch, his truthsense and voice are challenging. But the concept of a human “race consciousness” that acts throughout humanity as a blind force to our motives and actions is nuts, and the idea of tapping into cellular memory that provides a “ghost” consciousness for every one of your ancestors available to your consultation is extremely out there. I almost prefer there being some sort of psychic repository of the ones who have passed to Reverend Mothers than to the concept of a cellular memory.

@Stranger_On_A_Train

Of course, Dune and its sequels are set in a feudal-like space empire controlled by what are essentially a chartered company in the “____ East India” vein, with interstellar commerce and travel mediated and controlled by the Navigators Guild, so it is really applying an pre-industrial “Age of Sail” paradigm upon a vast space empire genre.

Actually, his analog was more of Lawrence of Arabia, oil, and OPEC. With heavy influence from the caucasus mountains and fighting against the Russian takeover.

@Stranger_On_A_Train

hence, the intentional merging of Catholicism, Protestantism, Sufism, Hinduism, et cetera into a single syncretic religion which the Bene Gesserit would use as a kind of spice pantry to create mythologies built into local religions on isolated worlds.

The syncretism of the world religions in Dune history preceeds any Bene Gesserits. Though the Bene Gesserit certainly play upon the mythos to craft whatever tales they wish to the planetary populations. They use religion as a manipulative tool - one of Herbert’s big themes.

@Stranger_On_A_Train

What I find most peculiar and difficult to really accept is that while the Freeman of Dune live a relatively primitive lifestyle, riding sandworms into the deep desert to travel between sitches, they are capable of manufacturing complex weapons and tools that should require an extensive industrial base. It is an interesting study in integrating spartan living within the bounds of a seemingly barren environment with high technology, but it is never really explained other than the basis for most things is somehow the spice melange produced from the wastes of sandtrout. That this ‘spice’ should be so useful in so many ways is a big conceit but since it is the key factor in so much of the novels and the substance that all groups are fighting to control and/or figure out how to produce/synthesize outside of Arrakis, it is something that the reader just has to accept without a real physical or chemical basis.

Yes, it is rather bizarre that the spice somehow has the chemical complexity to be manufactured into a variety of uses from clothing to explosives to any number of types of materials. It’s rather like oil.

Yeah, that’s a bit of snark, mostly because I agree. The complex manufacturing that the Fremen accomplish in Sietch - especially the southern areas - does seem at odds with their spartan living. But I think it is intended as such.

However, Herbert does describe them as skilled craftsmen and gives insight into why their stillsuits are so much better than the city ones - they are perfectionists. They make a funnel for the water measuring device that is so smooth that no water drops remain. That’s Paul’s first insight to their tech.

@Stranger_On_A_Train

Fair enough, but the books (at least Frank’s novels…I’ve never read the ‘extended’ books and have zero interest) don’t explicitly present any of this, and the general lifestyle and cultural practices of the Fremen seem kind of unworkable in an industrialized society, even one hidden in the deep desert.

Actually, the books explicitly mention factories in the sietches. That’s one of Jessica’s first comments to Paul when they reach Sietch Tabr.

@xtenkfarpl

One thing that always puzzled me. Given the Butlerian Jihad and the consequent creation of ‘mentats’ as human thinking machines, I can’t really recall much in the way of seeing exceptional mentat powers in action?

Mentats are fairly rare - it takes an extensive training from an early age, plus the right drugs. That’s why there’s only one in Atreides service, and when Piter dies the Baron is left without any others and turns to Hawat.

One instance is when the Atreides council is discussing resources on Dune, Thufir Hawat gives a string of numbers and calculations relating to costs of Spice production under the Harkonnens and expected profits given the state of their equipment.

Hawat is also displays strategy in his manipulations with the Harkonnens after he is taken. In particular, the plot by Feyd.

Probably the clearest is when Paul starts making deductions when he has his first spice trance in the stilltent with Jessica. He’s able to discern

that Jessica is the Baron’s own daughter.

But you are correct, there aren’t a lot of displays of mental computation going on.

@xtenkfarpl

Or how does the planet have an oxygen atmosphere when there seem to be no photosynthetic plants?

Herbert does address that, explicitly. It’s the sand plankton stage of the worm cycle that produce oxygen by feeding on spice.

What’s rather more concerning from an ecological and energy cycle is that the Spice worms form a self-contained loop. Sand plankton feed on spice, grow to little makers, conglomerate and become sand trout and form a pre-spice mass. They blow up, leaving some some sand trout in a dormant stage to transform into worms that grow to Shai Halud, and then scatter spice for sand plankton to feed on. There should be a law of diminishing returns effect in there somewhere.

@Pleonast

While the technology is interesting, it’s just the window dressing. The book is about the interactions among extremely different human cultures and polities. There’s the Imperial House, the Great Houses (Atriedes and Harkonnen in particular), the Spacing Guild, the Bene Gesserit, the Fremen, the Mentats, the Suk doctors. Probably forgetting some. Each of those are worthy of in-depth discussion by themselves, and then in relation to the others.

Oh sure. Herbert’s work isn’t hard SF, it’s sometimes called soft SF because the intent is exploring psychology and politics and social organization. He doesn’t stress over the tech because it’s just window dressing.

I’m interested in the tech as a gateway to discussing real technology. Thus the theme for my topic.

[Alessan]

@Irishman

Oh sure. Herbert’s work isn’t hard SF, it’s sometimes called soft SF because the intent is exploring psychology and politics and social organization.

I think his primary intent is to tell a good story, which he does.

[ParallelLines]

@Irishman

I then plan to hit stillsuits, ornithopters, and try to wrap up with shield tech. Obviously the last is the most fictional of the technologies presented.

Eh, I don’t consider shield tech the most fictional tech of the Dune universe, I’d probably hold that for the various null-entropy techs they have. For example in Heretics of Dune (still Hebert pere, but the later novels) have a no-room built during the Harkonnen era that has perfectly preserved food, weapons, tech, etc from that period protected by the nullentropy system. It doesn’t show up as much, or as prominently as the other “out-there” techs, but it always had me go “whaaaaa???”

Assuming the no-room in question was built at height of Harkonnen power, by the time it was used in Heretics it had functioned, almost certainly unmaintained for 5000ish years. And again, organic and other perishable materials were perfectly useable with no reconditioning or risk, including food.

Link to the wiki: Nullentropy | Dune Wiki | Fandom.

[Alessan]

@ParallelLines

Assuming the no-room in question was built at height of Harkonnen power, by the time it was used in Heretics it had functioned, almost certainly unmaintained for 5000ish years. And again, organic and other perishable materials were perfectly useable with no reconditioning or risk, including food.

The trick to have a time-stop room operate indefinitely is to put the mechanism inside the room. That way no passes for it, so it doesn’t break down or run out of juice.

No-rooms almost make sense to me, because time dilation is something that actually exists. The trick is to make sure that only part of the building accelerates to C.

[ParallelLines]

That kinda-sorta works, if there weren’t null-entropy bins inside a no-room, on a planetary surface.

For that matter, assuming we use a relativistic summary, (the room is moving back and forth microns in space at .99c) then some rough napkin math says that over 5000 years, the insides experience something like 695 years of time. I think we’ll have to find some other explanation for this one.

But was just making the point that the tech used is all about how it furthers the story - shields exist because Herbert wanted a semi-feudal society that still mostly fought hand-to-hand. The null-entropy is a largely throw-away moment, but the implications would have been HUGE to any society.

[JRDelirious]

@Irishman

@xtenkfarpl

I can’t really recall much in the way of seeing exceptional mentat powers in action?

Mentats are fairly rare - it takes an extensive training from an early age, plus the right drugs. That’s why there’s only one in Atreides service, and when Piter dies the Baron is left without any others and turns to Hawat.

…

But you are correct, there aren’t a lot of displays of mental computation going on.

Thing is, placed in the same story as Bene Gesserit Reverent Mothers or Guild Navigators, what Mentat do is… not as entertaining except if cracking a code or concocting a particularly clever plan. Mental computation, especially by someone at near-supercomputer ability to think algorithmically, is not narratively engaging. Superhuman analytical and recall prowess in loyal service to your Lords doesn’t grab as much as total control over your biology and genetic legacy, or seeing an entire spacefold trajectory across thousands of lightyears, while carrying out epoch-spanning machinations and doublecrosses.

[outlierrn]

It’s worth noting the almost 60 years have gone buy. Not only has science marched on, but our expectations of what science can do have changed a lot since 1965.

One could argue that, much like ST:TOS or The Cold Equations, the fact that we’re still talking about it speaks well for it, even if so much of it has aged badly.

[Irishman]

@ParallelLines

Eh, I don’t consider shield tech the most fictional tech of the Dune universe, I’d probably hold that for the various null-entropy techs they have.

Okay, I don’t remember that. Haven’t gotten back to Heretics yet.

Yes, there’s also a lot of stuff from Ix and Tleilaxu that isn’t broached in the first book. I’m mainly focused on that one since that is the movie topic,

@ParallelLines

But was just making the point that the tech used is all about how it furthers the story - shields exist because Herbert wanted a semi-feudal society that still mostly fought hand-to-hand. The null-entropy is a largely throw-away moment, but the implications would have been HUGE to any society.

Oh definitely. I already made the point in my first presentation that Herbert wanted a particular feel, and crafted his universe to give it. Specifically, shields to drive the knife/sword culture.

Herbert believed feudalism was a natural state of governance that humanity falls into. He thought most people wanted to give up the effort to rule and let a few have the power and responsibility. He doesn’t really give a justification for that belief, or why that means feudalism over representative democracy or some other equally divided level of governing effort. But that was the framework he used. It does dovetail nicely with setting up a “chosen one” story as you have a governing class to already predispose someone to leadership and ruling. And it allows you to dismiss most of the population as “pyons” who do what they are told and are backdrop for the story.

@JRDelirious

Mental computation, especially by someone at near-supercomputer ability to think algorithmically, is not narratively engaging.

Yes, very much so.

It’s also probably a case that it is difficult to convincingly do that kind of narrative exposition if one isn’t a mentat yourself. Like writing a deductive investigator that is smarter than you are, it’s a challenge to do convincingly.

[xtenkfarpl]

@Irishman

It’s also probably a case that it is difficult to convincingly do that kind of narrative exposition if one isn’t a mentat yourself. Like writing a deductive investigator that is smarter than you are, it’s a challenge to do convincingly.

Good point. It’s an obvious ongoing issue with science fiction: how to portray a character who is superintelligent beyond human norms. You can’t do it first person. All you can do is show the results in action.

I guess one can approach the character from other aspects of their life when they are not working directly on their specialty. McAndrew in Charles Sheffield’s books, perhaps or Bruno De Towaji in Wil McCarthy’s ‘Collapsium’?

Seem to be decent chaps… hey, Paul Dirac apparently had a happy marriage too…

But we’re getting a bit off the Dune theme, sorry…

[Irishman]

@Irishman

It’s also probably a case that it is difficult to convincingly do that kind of narrative exposition if one isn’t a mentat yourself. Like writing a deductive investigator that is smarter than you are, it’s a challenge to do convincingly.

I had a glitch while composing. I was going to edit that comment to something a little less redundantly repetitive.

[Stranger_On_A_Train]

@MrDibble

If I buy a pair of hand-stitched Italian leather shoes made by some 5th-gen craftsman, they are going to be superior to some machine-made Crocs in almost every way. But they would be much lower tech. Maybe for stillsuits it’s the hand-finishing that gives the quality.

But shoes are not really complex in terms of function (even though modern shoes are sophisticated in construction). The stillsuits in Dune, however, would definitely require manufacture of highly sophisticated materials and control feedback systems in order to be able to regulate temperature and control fluid loss.

@Irishman

Actually, his analog was more of Lawrence of Arabia, oil, and OPEC. With heavy influence from the caucasus mountains and fighting against the Russian takeover.

True, but the multinational oil companies are basically the spiritual successors to charter companies, essentially co-oping local governments, acting in extralegal fashion with respect to laws and international treaties, getting “security assurance” from the United States, et cetera.

@Irishman

I’m interested in the tech as a gateway to discussing real technology. Thus the theme for my topic.

As noted above, the technology of Dune is really mostly science fantasy, even though it isn’t as obviously so as, say, Star Wars (which is really just a Dune knockoff with the serial numbers filed off and all of the metaphorical notions and philosophy thrown overboard). Not that ‘fantasy’ technology can’t be a basis for discussing what might be practicable with future innovations but Herbert was clearly using technology like personal shields, the prescience-generating spice melange, Mentats and the prohibitions against ‘thinking machines’, et cetera are to create this kind of feudal galactic empire where guns, lasers, and the other standard implements of modern warfare. With a few exceptions, he didn’t put much effort into rationalizing how the technology actually worked so how it is created or mechanical functions within the narrative universe of Dune is largely speculation.

Stranger

[MrDibble]

@Stranger_On_A_Train

The stillsuits in Dune, however, would definitely require manufacture of highly sophisticated materials and control feedback systems in order to be able to regulate temperature and control fluid loss.

Sure. I’m saying it’s how those are all put together that may be the mark of Fremen manufacture.

[ParallelLines]

@Irishman

Yes, there’s also a lot of stuff from Ix and Tleilaxu that isn’t broached in the first book. I’m mainly focused on that one since that is the movie topic,

Technically it isn’t. It’s a weird inconsistency in that it dates from the immediate pre-Dune events - despite the fact that no-room / no-ship tech wasn’t developed until three thousand years later. Again, it’s largely a throw-away moment, and ill-thought out in my opinion. In the house books there is an effort to explain this with a new Holtzman level genius (and if you read the Butlerian Jihad books, he’s not quite the genius you think he is!) who developed the no-tech room and ship far earlier, was financed and later killed by his sponsors who were utterly incapable of replicating the tech.

I only mention this to clear up the understanding about it being new tech, and fully acknowledge that the “answer” as to why it was created and when has an answer in the prequels which were specifically outside the scope of the OP.

How about this, I know you’re primarily fixed on the technology of the first books and movies, but the unlocking of Duncan Idaho’s memories establishes by Dune Messiah that serial immortality is possible, in a form accessible to anyone not just those who survive exposure to the water of life. And while the Atreides probably have very good reasons to not spread the tech widely, the Bene Tleilax almost immediately exploited it for their own ruling caste.

But no one else does? Paul decides not to with his love, and wanders off on his own divergence from the Golden Path, and the God Emperor only uses it for various Duncan Idaho Gholas, and arguably had the military and prescience force to stomp out any other usages, but heck, once he’s gone, why should the Tleilaxu bother with Face Dancers, improved or otherwise? They can make twisted mentats and others with nigh-unbreakable conditioning - grab a few cells of a target, grow a ghola, and kill the original, and replace it with a ghola that has all the original memories but is conditioned to subtly follow your goals!

[muldoonthief]

@Irishman

But you are correct, there aren’t a lot of displays of mental computation going on.

I liked how in the recent movie, they showed Thufir’s Mentat powers by having his eyes roll back in his head while he multiplies by 3. I knew kids back in Mathletes who could do that (without the nystagmus).

[GargoyleWB]

For mentats, computation is probably a near-reflex response due to their training and drug-assistance, so I imagine that any computational query slips them into that rolled-eyes state regardless of complexity.

I picture much pranking from Paul when he was a child…“Hey guys watch this…Thufir, what’s 2 + 2? snicker. Thufir, got change for a dollar? snicker.”

[mbh]

David Lynch monkeyed around with the book when he made his movie. 98% of the changes were bad. But I liked the incantation that Piter de Vries recites when he drinks the sapho juice. It’s certainly not in the original books, but it fits the zeitgeist.

[Irishman]

@muldoonthief

I liked how in the recent movie, they showed Thufir’s Mentat powers by having his eyes roll back in his head while he multiplies by 3 . I knew kids back in Mathletes who could do that (without the nystagmus).

I didn’t take that as the only cost factor, but can see how it can be taken that way.

[Irishman]

@ParallelLines

why should the Tleilaxu bother with Face Dancers, improved or otherwise? They can make twisted mentats and others with nigh-unbreakable conditioning - grab a few cells of a target, grow a ghola, and kill the original, and replace it with a ghola that has all the original memories but is conditioned to subtly follow your goals!

According to the text, the gholas are not indistinguishable. The first Duncan Idaho ghola is a young man, younger than Duncan at the time of his death.

Similarly, it could be a challenge to duplicate all the physical marks, scars, etc on a body.

But those probably aren’t insurmountable for Tleilaxu tech.

That’s the problem with creating some high tech future. You probably won’t anticipate all the ways your tech could be implemented that opens a real can of worms for your story.

[DPRK]

@xtenkfarpl

One thing that always puzzled me. Given the Butlerian Jihad and the consequent creation of ‘mentats’ as human thinking machines, I can’t really recall much in the way of seeing exceptional mentat powers in action?
Been a while since I read the books though…

Paul had Mentat training (among other things), and we all know what he did…

[ParallelLines]

@Irishman

According to the text, the gholas are not indistinguishable. The first Duncan Idaho ghola is a young man, younger than Duncan at the time of his death.

Similarly, it could be a challenge to duplicate all the physical marks, scars, etc on a body.

Fair enough, I was pre-supposing the caveats you gave above, which admittedly could be a tiny but not non-existent issue, but likely no more so than killing your target and spending enough time with the body for the face-dancer to emulate it, plus having to dispose of the body after.