I’ll be generous and just attribute it to willful ignorance, aiming to exhaust opponents after defeating them is shown impossible.
Heh, I like this. I do know there are many mornings when that fact that I’m conscious at all seems paranormal. 
Gentlemen (and ladies), let me take another shot at this and see if maybe one of you can wrap your minds around why the challenge is bogus.
My first effort was to make sure I knew exactly what paranormal was. Not by any one parties claim of a definition but by checking all the dictionaries I could find. There is a meaning that we have assigned to the word, in short: Unexplainable by science.
Next I began to think of what known things, real things, are unexplainable by science. I first thought of the wart thing. That’s the type of thing that most would think of, some kind of “magic”. I then moved on, through this conversation, to think of other things that were unexplainable. I came up with many.
Nect I began to get further into the rules with people here. Much to my dismay, the rules are quite different than the advertised claim of the challenge. They are indeed, looking for “magic” things they know do not exist, and know the “prize” will never be awarded.
Now, here is why they are liars. We are paranormal . The people who wrote the damn thing are paranormal. It’s like a dog that chased his tail until he caught it and and found out it was his. There is no “prize” folks. It’s simply an invitation for you too, to chase your tail until you catch it. It is bogus.
There are some 170 known solar systems, 140 or so charted planets, countless stars and chunks of crap floating around. There are several planets close enough to us to see with a telescope. This is what we know, our scientific evidence. None of them have life or conscious evolution that we can show in any way. Considering this, let me ask all of you: What is the normal condition of the known universe in regards to life and science, as we know it ?
The answer is this: As far as science can tell, the normal and explainable condition of the universe is absent of life and consciousness. We are the sole exception.
If the challenge was real, all you have to do is show up and prove consciousness. They can’t explain why. There is none.
One poster asked the question: What do you think the purpose of the challenge is ?
The purpose is to attempt to demostrate that paranormal does not exist. In the context they provide, it does not. It does. We are living proof.
Keep chasing your own tails and one day, if you try hard enough, you’ll cacth it. Then you will understant that it is no “contest”, no “challenge” and there is no prize. It is an exercise in human futility, a paranormal event in and of itself.
They know, you know, anyone who understands our utter uniqueness in the universe knows, we are the paranormal. Therefore, they lie. The challenge is bogus.
Everyone here understands the wonder of the universe, and miracle of life, and wow factor of consciousness. Many of us think there probably is life elsewhere, but that doesn’t diminish the appreciation for the life here.
And if you think Randi is trying to make people lose interest in the mystery of life, I think you’re dead wrong. Randi wants people to be caught up in the wonder. The real wonder, not the silly crap like astrology.
I’ve known about the challenge for nearly 30 years. I first found out about it when I saw Randi on a television show. In fact, I recently ran across a clip of that very show, which I saw live when it first aired. Follow this link to youtube if you want to see it**:
Here is what I think about the Randi Challenge:
Randi started the challenge as a response to those people who say that magic does exist. He firmly believes the prize will never be won, not because he will cheat, but for the same reasons you listed. There is no need to rig the test or lie about the rules, because he very much believes that there is no such thing as magic, and things like telepathy, dowsing, telekinesis, etc. simply do not work.
But there are those people who would scam the credulous or unwary by telling them that they can dowse for water, talk to your dead aunt, bend spoons with their minds, tell your future, etc. There are those who are not scammers but are mistaken believers. There are those who disbelieve 99% of the same things that Randi disbelieves, but still think that maybe people can talk warts off.
The challenge was developed as a way of inducing people to test those things in a controlled environment. The money is offered because who would go through the trouble of a controlled test if there were no possible upside? (Of course, not everything lends itself to testing in an afternoon or two, so it’s not always an effective tactic.)
So those people who genuinely believe get to look with a critical eye on those beliefs. And people who have heard of these “powers” and are drawn to believe in them may get a dose of reason to combat the silliness.
More importantly, the actual scammers can be called to put up or shut up. If they can do what they tell their customers they can do, and what they pretend to do on a regular basis, they could actually collect the money. But what will happen if they take the test is that they will fail. Not because the test is rigged, but because they’re lying about their ability. This at least shines the spotlight of reason on their behavior, with the hope that more of their customers will see the truth and tell them to piss off. Even if they don’t take the test, watching them squirm and make up reasons not to take it has some value, and hopefully helps people to see the scam.
The offer of the money is genuine, even though Randi thinks (as do I) that it will never be claimed. He has said that it would be really cool if someone were to win it, because of the upset in thinking that would cause and the avenues of investigation it would open up. But he doesn’t actually expect it.
** For anyone who thinks that the guy in the video was ill treated, be aware that several years later he came out and confessed that he was in fact a fraud, and that everything Randi said about had been true. This was the perfect application of the challenge, to expose a scam artist on national television.
Let me make sure I completely understand you. You are asserting, as a matter of demonstrable fact, that we (humans) are unique in the universe? To borrow a phrase from you, prove it.
As for the rest, **RKJUgly **has stated it quite well. The Challenge has a specific purpose; to root out the charlatans who prey upon the gullible. It’s validity is independent of your obsession with the definition of “paranormal.”
I agree with most of what you say. It does not make the challenge any less bogus.
The prize is offered from the position that it can’t be won . That is no prize.
It’s not a contest, it’s a no contest. Any reasonable, intelligent person, upon close inspection, can see that there is no way, no intention, of ever paying the money. That means it is not a prize . Prizes are won and claimed. He may as well offer the sun as a prize and promise that you can take it home and keep for your very own if you win. The offer is not genuine , as you say, for the simple fact that the man offering it genuinely believes it can not be won . It’s pretty important part of offering a prize to know how it can be won, and he doesn’t. No one does. It’s not a prize. It’s not a contest. Like I said, at best it is some kind of exercise in futility . It is bogus.
I am not attempting to smear this guy, he seems to be a smart guy with at least some noble motivations. The fact is, he knows the offer is bogus and offers it anyway. He admits as much when saying he believes no one will ever take it. He has offered a prize with 0%, demonstable, chance of winning. If you can produce any statistical evidence that there is any chance of winning, then you have a prize. The fact is, when examining the criteria for the challenge and assimilating any numbers of validity of the claims, by his own exercise we can show, to this point, there is 0 chance of taking this money. It’s not a prize, he’s a liar. We all lie, it’s not the end of Randi as you know him, it’s a demostration that the man is just as human and fallable as the people he so eagerly wants to show as human and fallable.
Randi can reconstruct his contest and perhaps find a way to offer it without being a liar.
Without going through this whole process again, think about that “wow” factor you mentioned. When you can demonstrate that human consciousness is explainable, in scientific terms, then you got a winner. Otherwise, I think that’s the one I’ll stand by.
It is, by any intelligent reasoning, bogus . Bogus being dishonest and deceitful.
And here we have it. The purpose of the challenge. Offer a bogus prize for a purpose other than the stated goal of said challenge. Thank you. He’s a liar.
And BTW, I don’t know if we are unique for sure. We are unique within our knowledge. All I know is that there is no scientific evidence of other life. That doesn’t mean it isn’t so but in the context of this entire “challenge” we are working within the confines of explainable science.
I disagree, and I am both reasonable and intelligent by any measure, and have inspected it much more closely than you have for a much longer time. So that part of your statement is false. In this, reasonable people may in fact disagree. You may think it’s an exercise in futility, but you’re saying it’s not a contest doesn’t make it so. There are many, many many people in the world who think the contest is easily winnable. Some of them are also both intelligent and reasonable (except for, IMHO, that one little quirk).
Can you actually demonstrate that there is a zero chance of winning? You can demonstrate that dowsing is never real, that minds are never read, that fotunres are never told? Don’t get me wrong, I think the chances are essentially zero, but not demonstrably absolute zero. If you can’t demonstrate it, by your own logic, it ain’t demonstrable.
Unless you can demonstrate that the chances of winning are actually zero, then your logic that he is a liar is false.
“Way” and “Intention” are not the same. You cannot infer intent. It may be clear to you that the prize cannot be won. No matter. I could offer a prize to the first man to jump fifty feet unaided straight into the air. So what? As long as we both agree on what constitutes a valid test, and I am not involved in the testing process, you can claim the prize. Just jump.
Where do you get this? If I genuinely believe that turtles don’t lay eggs, what bearing does that have on whether a turtle egg wins the turtle egg prize? Randi’s beliefs are irrelevant. You keep missing this. * He does not determine what constitutes a win.*
If there were not hundreds of people claiming to perform the tasks that the Challenge tests, you might have a point. But there are, and you don’t. Really, Randi and you are quite alike. You have the same mantra. “Prove it.”
To paraphrase Jack Nicklaus, “You speak an English with which I am not familiar.” I have no clue what you are talking about, but your petty pedantic musings are of little use in meaningful discourse. The prize is not bogus. The purpose is clear and precise. And no lying is involved. Now, when you originally claimed that “unexplained equals unexplainable,” and then reversed field, one of those was almost certainly a lie. Unless you had a conversion experience. Did you?
Then why say we are? Are you a liar? First you say we are unique, then you say you don’t know? How can it be that one of your statements seems to contradict another? That’s bogus. Your statements are bogus. Why would you say that we are unique if you don’t believe it? How can we accept any of your arguments if you are just going to spout out a bunch of bogus shit?
No, we’re not. Explanations are irrelevant. It says so right in the rules. All that matters is results.
Confirmed winners of the challenge = 0
Confirmed cases of UFOs, psychics, telepathy, spoon benders, on and on…= 0
Statistical chances of 0 known people applying to contest with 0 winners = 0
The known chances of the prize being awarded is 0.
Bogus prize.
Umm… let me begin with saying that I don’t follow you all the way here. I’m kinda tired.
Next let me admit something that most folks won’t: I lie. Happens all the time. Generally not on purpose but it happens by accident or mistake and yes, sometimes cause I want to. Thing is, scientific studies show that just about everyone does lie although just about no one admits it.
As far as the other stuff, I can only repeat myself. Go back and read the whole thread. There is little left to my position that hasn’t already been said. Unless I start lying. Like Randi.
Where has he stated another goal for the challenge? He may have (in your opinion) flubbed the summary of what the challenge is, but I don’t see a goal stated there.
As far as I can recall, Randi has always said the goal was to expose fraud and/or inform the misinformed.
Again, here we have it. The goal is not to win the prize . If it is the prize, and it truely is a prize, that is the goal. That has to be the goal of a challenge or contest, else it’s not a contest. If the purpose, is as you state, to expose fraud, that is not a challenge / prize / contest , anyone with basic comprehension skills should understand that is the purpose is not to win the contest, it’s not a contest.
Shit, if Randi was a poster here with this non sense, there is a word for people with those kind of cloaked motives: Trolls. Most respectable MBs send them away.
People not yet tested by the challenge = 5.999 billion
Cases of psychic powers, UFOs, bent spoons not explained (which as we all know = unexplainable) > 1 and < 5.999 billion
Statistical chances of a win for between 1 and 5.999 billion people taking the test for various abilities = unknown
The known chances of the prize being awarded is unknown.
Again, I think there is just about zero chance. So does Randi. Just as he tells everyone who takes the test. But lots of people think they can win. Lots of people know they can’t win legitimately, but think they can fool Randi. Maybe someday one of them will and Randi will have to pay up because he was fooled.
No matter how you count it, there is some chance the challenge is winnable.
Another way to look at this:
Suppose we did offer a prize for the first man to jump 50 ft in the air. Then we set about saying and torturing the people who fail, making that the focus of our challenge. After all, it is, as most would agree, beyond human capacity to jump 50ft into the air. No doubt people would come forward and try. The organizers would display them for the benefit of hammer home the fact that people can’t jump that high.
That’s not a contest. It’s an exercise in human futility with some very dark and self satisfying motives.
So you were lying when you said the goal was other than stated?
Huh? The goal of the *applicant *is to win the prize. The goal of the prize offerer isn’t to win the prize. Why offer a prize for which you are a claimant?
Anyone can offer a prize for whatever reason he wants. For whatever goal suits his fancy. The only question is whether the prize is fairly administrated.
But that is not even close to what happens. Where did you get this idea? The JREF vigorously encourages people to test their abilities themselves, double blind, before applying for the prize. They almost beg them to be absolutely sure before proceeding to the test.
This characterization of yours is, frankly, false. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you do not know any better.
“here are other rules for quantifying uncertainty, such as the Dempster-Shafer theory and possibility theory, but those are essentially different and** not compatible** with the laws of probability as they are usually understood.”
You are using Voodoo math. The probablity is 0.