And then he attempted to give the guy a chance:
Of course this single case ignores all of the chances that Randi has given people and they have failed. I’d be much more skeptical of someone living without food then I would someone reading minds, etc. and he has given supposed mind readers the challenge. The HONEST challenge with a REAL 1 million dollars.
Wow. You copy and pasted an accusation that by itself makes no sense and hasn’t been verified to reflect the truth. Amazing.
“One reason to doubt whether any money would ever be paid out of his fund derives from Randi’s misrepresentation of Puthoff and Targ’s work in the 1970s after they had documented a number of his mistakes. As George Hansen points out in The Trickster and the Paranormal (2003, p. 47, footnote 25), in a published, handwritten, signed letter, Randi replied offering $1,000 if any claimed error could be demonstrated. Curtis Fuller proved Randi wrong. Randi later admitted his error, in writing, but he never did pay the $1,000.”
What do you mean “not at all”?
This is what you said:
I showed you that the ‘if’ in the real life situation was met. Sorry, but by your own admission the “then” is true. Unless you want to take back what you said.
I know what I said and I stand by it. The logic you are using is that because of the existence of idiotic claims, Randi’s challenge is honest. The if was met. Problem is, there is no “if” in honesty. Either he intends to award the prize or he doesn’t. No one else has any bearing on Randi’s intentions whether there are a million people making claims or none. That has 0 to do with the honesty of the challenge.
Great, so you copy and pasted another version of an accusation from the 70s including only one side of the story without citation, and this is evidence that no one will collect the 1 million dollars from Randi’s challenge, which is in an account with Goldman Sachs, in negotiable bonds held in a special investment account. You’re a genius.
I’m no genius but I know shit when I smell it.
Really, you’re the genius here.
It’s evidence that he did not pay a previous challenge.
If you can prove he paid it, please do.
Either you have no idea what you said or you’re not standing by it. Shall we go over it again? Lets:
No “if” in honesty? Sorry, my friend, that’s not what the “if” was regarding.
You said "He said IF …then it would be honest. "
The ‘if’ he was referring to was if people claimed they could sprout wings and fly.
You then said:
“That the “if” must be met for the “then” to be true ?”
Ahh, but the ‘if’ was met in the real life situation. There ARE people that claim to read minds, etc. And you say the “if” must be met for the “then” to be true. Again, the “if” was met in the real life situation! THERE YA GO!!!
Right, and you have yet to provide sufficient evidence that he doesn’t intend to award the prize should someone successfully win the challenge.
Correct.
I can’t even prove this story has an iota of truth to it let alone he paid any bets he made.
OK. If you wish to dispute this with any evidence, just say so.
Oh, that’s how it works?
Yes. I supply evidence of an event and you dispute it with more than “no it’s not”.
“How does this all translate to the James Randi Million Dollar Challenge?
The prize isn’t cash. The prize is bonds that are WORTH a million dollars. So, there are a lot of Bob’s Baker people running around with the money, and they all gave Randi an IOU. And all these IOU’s total to a million dollars.
Since the prize money is in the form of bonds, then it is possible that the bonds are worthless.”
"Does the Challenge have worthless bonds?
The next logical step is to find out what the bonds are really worth. To do that, I e-mailed Randi at the address he provided on his website. I politely pointed out where it said the prize was in bonds in the Challenge rules, and then I asked what corporations issued the bonds, what the interest rates were, and when the maturity dates are. These are the main factors at determining if the bonds are worthless or not.
Randi replied with, “Apply, or go away.”
Enter Kramer
I e-mailed Randi again, asking for clarification. I didn’t mean to be annoying, but they weren’t answering the question. Why would I apply if the bonds were worthless? <snip> Kramer replied with, “So far, you’re just full of shit. That’s OUR perspective. Apply or go away. We don’t have to prove anything to you. If you really have a claim, you’ll apply.”
Enter JREF Forums
I expected to find a bunch of pseudo-skeptics making fun of me. And I did. What I didn’t expect to find is that Kramer EDITED the e-mails before posting. All of the sudden, his “full of shit” comment was translated to “full of baloney.” And Randi’s “Apply, or disappear” was translated to “Apply, or don’t apply.”
Misinformation and misdirection
Kramer’s answer was that the prize was CASH, and not bonds.
The next thing that happened absolutely blew me away. Kramer posted on the forums that he received an e-mail from me. In this e-mail, I complimented Kramer’s hard work, and told him the issue was resolved. The only problem is: I never wrote or sent that e-mail.
It turns out the prize IS THE BONDS.
Wow.
So my original assumption was right after all. The prize is the bonds. And my questions have still gone unanswered. What is there to say? Well, the most obvious thing I’ve learned from this is that Kramer certainly isn’t trustworthy. He edited the e-mails, and told everyone the prize was in cash. And no one knows where the false e-mail came from
Liars. Absolute liars.
I never said, “no it’s not”. It’s not my job to verify if that a story you copied and pasted without citation is the whole story or to get Randi’s version of the story. You want to provide evidence that Randi’s a cheat; it’s your job to make sure that that evidence is sufficient enough to change any minds about Randi’s integrity regarding his challenge.
Is this what you’re pinning your hopes on now? That providing an anecdote about how Randi welshed on a bet several years ago is going to convince other that you have sufficiently provided proof that the challenge is bogus? Well, ya never know. Good luck!
Yes, yes…but what do you mean by bogus??
Screw the Randi prize or whatever, get a show on the National Geographic channel…The Wart Whisperer…you’ll make a lot more than a million.
Seriously, won’t warts go away by themselves in 5 weeks?
What an amazing leap in logic. I have no idea how you managed to twist it around like that. He knows the supernatural is bullcrap and so that people who assert it are wrong, and so he won’t pay out. He has every intention of paying out, thats why he put the money in an independent escrow. He doesn’t pay squat, its the escrow company that pays when a test is passed. They enter into a contract, Randi doesn’t have a choice once the contract is signed by both parties.
Um, you think people start believing in the supernatural because no one can win a million dollar prize if they demonstrate the supernatural? What?
Thank you. I was right. Here’s the full quote you misquoted:
Taking partial quotes out of context is bad.
Oh I see, so because we don’t understand it perfectly, it’s clearly supernatural. Um, no. Science is perfectly happy to say that it doesn’t understand something right now, but it’s working on it. Just because we don’t completely understand an idea right now doesn’t mean we need to go leaping for the supernatural explanation. This especially applies if you don’t understand something.
It is contrary to the laws of science, but that doesnt make it supernatural. No one has ever claimed supernatural anything about cold fusion, it’s always been done in a scientific context. There are lots of things that are contrary to scientific laws and are not supernatural. If someone claims to have acheived cold fusion, and then goes to Randi for a test, everyone will instantly know they’re full of crap because cold fusion has nothing to do with the supernatural, and never has.
I have reasoned belief based on science’s past performance. The supernatural has no credit to fall back on. You’re deliberately redefining the scope of his test and then attaking this new definition, and that a strawman fallacy. If he accepts a claim as supernatural and agrees to test it, and the test is passed, then he pays the million dollars and science steps in to take a look at what happened and if it’s repeatable. You’re just declaring that anything that would pass the test is not supernatural and Randi wouldn’t test it, and that something you made up yourself.
Once again, I decline to participate in your hallucination. Randi regularly tests things that are regarded as beyond the realm of science that are fervently believed in as very real by the proponents.
Yeah, you got that quote wrong. Try again. Randi tries to test every legitimate claim he can. He receives 100s of bogus, unclear, or outright insane claims, and can’t be expected to test those. He posts a lot of them on his site. If you want to claim that he refuses to test things based solely on him losing the money then I’m going to have to ask for something concrete than unproven declaration. Show me one submitted claim he refused to test because he was afraid he would have to pay out.
Mine were around for years.
Why didn’t you have them whispered?
You don’t know what you’re talking about. Randi is suppose to pay $10,000 by personal check.
As for the rest of your post, it all seems like “no it’s not”. I have brought evidence, shown statistics and probabilty to support my claim. If you have evidence, “put up or shut up” , as many have said here. A virtual claim of “no it’s not” or “yes it is”, carries no weight.
As for the quote. “Concerning the challenge, I always have an out. I’m right”
Yes I can see where that absolutely changes things. That absolutely sounds like a man who intends to pay a prize now. Duh.