# Target Stores: ...85, 86, 87, , 89, 90... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 29, 2002, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/target-stores-85-86-87-89-90/126166 "2002-08-29T20:57:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/target-stores-85-86-87-89-90/126166/1 "2002-08-29T20:57:44Z")
According to [this article](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,61622,00.html), the number 88 is a nazi code for “Heil Hitler”, becuase H is the 8th letter of the alphabet. Obviously, ‘88’=‘HH’=‘Heil Hitler’. Now is it just me, or have things gotten utterly freaking stupid? What next? Do we launch a campaign to eliminate all occurrences of the number 8? I graduated from High School in '88. What are the implications of that? Just to be safe, maybe we should avoid the German language, along with all English words derived from German (Our daughter is going to start Child Refining in a week, then next year it’ll be off to first grade!). Perhaps we can bomb Germany again, just to make sure. Come on, give me a break! :rolleyes: Oh, uh, this isn’t just a rant. I’m curious. Does this action have any merit? Is anybody actually offended by the number 88? I mean, aside from the obvious reference to famous drug addict Michael Irvin. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/target-stores-85-86-87-89-90/126166/2 "2002-08-29T21:11:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joe\_Cool \* > I graduated from High School in '88. What are the implications of that? Nazi bastard! ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/target-stores-85-86-87-89-90/126166/3 "2002-08-29T21:15:47Z")
When I first saw the article I thought it was meritless. Then I saw a pic of the clothing and thought, you know, [this does look like something a white supremacist would wear](http://www.sacbee.com/ips_rich_content/474-0828target01.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![ElJeffe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@ElJeffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElJeffe)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/target-stores-85-86-87-89-90/126166/4 "2002-08-29T21:24:01Z")
According to the article, it sounds as if “88” is or was a widely used insignia among Nazis and neo-Nazis. Beyond that, though, I can’t say much about the validity of this “outrage”. Did the “88” used by the Nazis have a particular font, or style to it? Does this clothing mimic that font or style? Why was the number “88” used in this clothing? Was it derived from a source that could be logically traced back to Nazism? Did they just think the number “88” was cool? If someone produced a line of clothing that had “SS” on it in the jagged font that was used by the Nazi secret police, for example, I could see room for some contraversy. This could be something like that. Or maybe not. Based on the article, it’s hard to form an opinion, but knowing the PC culture, I’m going to lean towards this being an overreaction. I’d like some more info on this, though, so I can form an informed opinion. Anybody? Jeff ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/target-stores-85-86-87-89-90/126166/5 "2002-08-29T21:29:21Z")
glad some one posted the actual article. The OP sounded like the am radio jock this morning ranting and raving about ‘so, now, you can’t have something cost $.88?’ and that’s not it at all. The Target stores have taken off the shelves certain clothing items that had the number ‘88’ as part of the motiff (like one would see the symbol for the New York Yankees for example). So, they’re not at all attempting to ban the number, just not carrying a clothing line that used it as a symbol. why? well, again, according to the article, a shopper noted that prominent display of the number “88” was part of a neo-nazi groups’ literature and reportedly was how they ‘signaled’ to each other who they were. This wasn’t some rant/rave thing, from what I could see. This was a level headed corporate response to information that they might unwittingly be assisting /supporting some neo-nazi subculter at worst, and at best, might have some weird consequences for unsuspecting customers who purchased the items and wore them in the wrong areas. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/target-stores-85-86-87-89-90/126166/6 "2002-08-29T21:42:57Z")
Here’s a link to the [Sacremento Bee article](http://www.sacbee.com/content/news/story/4166431p-5189225c.html) I’m not quite ready to give up any number that could possibly mean something to a hate group but there may be something to it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/target-stores-85-86-87-89-90/126166/7 "2002-08-29T22:13:10Z")
Excuse me while I shed a personal tear over this one: the number 88 always recalls to me my late (Jewish) father (who finally managed to get accepted into the military to serve in WWII after multiple rejections because of medical problems), since it was his favorite “random” number. (You know, a number that you use like “a bajillion” to mean “indefinite but large”, as in the expression “I’ve told you kids 88 times…” :)) We always used to ask him why “88”, and he would always respond with the perfectly logical-sounding but perfectly irrelevant fact that 88 is the number of keys on a piano. (Dad didn’t play the piano, btw.) Now I learn that 88 is a neo-Nazi codeword, and if I go on using Dad’s “random number” I may be inadvertently sending a message of support to hate groups. Thanks, world. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/target-stores-85-86-87-89-90/126166/8 "2002-08-29T22:32:03Z")
Well, thankfully, this alert corporate action will keep neo-Nazis from communicating with each other. Just like when the phone company in N.Y. removed the numbers from pay phones, so that drug dealers were unable to pass messages back and forth. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![mobo85](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mobo85](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mobo85)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/target-stores-85-86-87-89-90/126166/9 "2002-08-29T22:48:40Z")
Not a Nazi symbol, but a neo-Nazi symbol. > [@](#): > > 88 is often found on hate group flyers, in both the greetings and closing comments of letters written by neo-Nazis, and in e-mail addresses. > _Anti-Defamation League_ I’m okay with this as long as Target only recalls these hats and shirts and not Eric Lindros uniforms and things like that. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/target-stores-85-86-87-89-90/126166/10 "2002-08-30T00:49:41Z")
Weird … my real estate agent said I should set the price of the house I was selling to be “$468,888” because prospective buyers who were Chinese would apparently like the number “888”. He said it was “good Fung Shui.” So is 88 now “bad” but 888 “good”? I feel like I’m behind the 8-ball here. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/target-stores-85-86-87-89-90/126166/11 "2002-08-30T00:53:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElJeffe \* > **If someone produced a line of clothing that had “SS” on it in the jagged font that was used by the Nazi secret police, for example, I could see room for some contraversy.** You mean like the rock band KISS does? ---
**Author:** ![leenmi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f1d935/32.png) [@leenmi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leenmi)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/target-stores-85-86-87-89-90/126166/12 "2002-08-30T03:12:55Z")
I saw something about this on another board. They were very adamant about Target’s need to stop carrying this clothing. I had never heard of the neo-nazi connection to 88, so I sat back and thought about what 88 brought to my mind: “rocket 88” from some old song. my olds '88 delta 88. That car went around corners like it was on a bungee cord. nothing about neo-nazi hatred. I chalk this up to the same thing as people claiming the the band 311’s name is actually a Kl Klux Klan reference (K being the 11 letter of the alphabet and 3 11s being KKK). Don’t like the band, but I’m pretty certain they ain’t KKK sympathizers. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/target-stores-85-86-87-89-90/126166/13 "2002-08-30T04:36:15Z")
From non-hate groups: [Anti-Defamation League](http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/numbers_88.html) [Swedish Antifascistisk Aktion-Stockholm](http://www.student.uit.no/~paalde/nazismexposed/Scripts/Reports/swedish-scene97.html) [The United Methodist Church](http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/anti-hate/symbolsofhate.html) [Southern Poverty Law Center](http://www.splcenter.org/intelligenceproject/ip-hatesymbols.html) If these folks put it on the same lists as the swastika, then I can’t really blame Target for pulling the items. For those who think my cites might have a bias, straight from the horse’s (or asshole’s, if you prefer, as I do) mouth: [Stormfront](http://www.stormfront.org/crusader/texts/whatis88.html) ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/target-stores-85-86-87-89-90/126166/14 "2002-08-30T04:51:48Z")
Don’t forget that Target is company that chose on its own to remove the clothing line. There is no law or regulation requiring them to do so. Target decided they had a duty to their shareholders, and their customers, to not promote something which some segments of society use for their own ends. It was a compassionate business decision. It might help to determine a timeline as to when neo-nazi groups started using the number for themselves. This might reduce/eliminate the hysteria that all instances of the number must have a perceived connection with neo-nazis. After all, I suspect the Olds Delta 88 greatly predates any neo-nazi notion to use the number for their own ends. As the OP illustrated with his comments about the German language, etc., the point is pretty clear. You can find any conspiracy, innuendo, etc., anywhere you choose if you look hard enough and have the mindset to see it. It’s hard to fight ignorance when so many are too ignorant to know they are ignorant, let alone eliminate their ignorance. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/target-stores-85-86-87-89-90/126166/15 "2002-08-30T11:02:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mojo \* > \*\*When I first saw the article I thought it was meritless. Then I saw a pic of the clothing and thought, you know, [this does look like something a white supremacist would wear](http://www.sacbee.com/ips_rich_content/474-0828target01.jpg). \*\* Does anybody else see Mr Hanky in between the eights? IMO, Target can choose to sell, or not to sell, what ever it’s comfy with. But doesn’t it seem a _little_ like playing into somebody’s hand here. I mean, ’ 88’ meaning ‘Heil Hitler’, if true, is obscure at best. But no longer. It’s almost as if they are saying 88 _officially_ means this and can mean nothing else. To me, it seems to legitimize the code of some brain-dead miscreants ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/target-stores-85-86-87-89-90/126166/16 "2002-08-30T15:33:00Z")
Now that I think back on the type of driver I used to see behind the wheel of Olds Delta 88s…hmmm… **tracer** , all those 8s are not going to help your home sale unless you also have a curving path to the front door. Those straight paths are very bad feng shui. Let us know if your open house draws a lot of mean-looking white guys with shaved heads and tattoos. ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/target-stores-85-86-87-89-90/126166/17 "2002-08-30T16:46:29Z")
Does anyone know who the maker of those clothes is? Have they had any comment on the controversy? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/target-stores-85-86-87-89-90/126166/18 "2002-08-30T16:46:52Z")
**Jackmannii:** Well, that would explain why the people who eventually bought my house weren’t Chinese. Its front walkway is straight as an arrow. ---
**Author:** ![Dryga\_Yes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@Dryga\_Yes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dryga_Yes)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/target-stores-85-86-87-89-90/126166/19 "2002-08-30T18:28:07Z")
Heh. I’m just surprised that there are people here that don’t know about the connotations “88” (and “18”) have. 🙂 (NO, I’m not a neo-nazi!) ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/target-stores-85-86-87-89-90/126166/20 "2002-08-30T18:37:41Z")
So when Alice Cooper was singing about being “18”, it was a veiled message about being Adolf Hitler reborn? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/target-stores-85-86-87-89-90/126166.md?page=2)