# Tariff on imported solar panels -- a veritable smorgasbord of ignorance! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 25, 2018, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tariff-on-imported-solar-panels-a-veritable-smorgasbord-of-ignorance/807447 "2018-01-25T14:49:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tariff-on-imported-solar-panels-a-veritable-smorgasbord-of-ignorance/807447/41 "2018-01-30T00:23:37Z")
Wanted to add: Maybe when Obama implemented the tariff there was a chance to help solar panel manufacturers in the US coupled with loan guarantees and subsidies but from what I’ve seen, I doubt it. The other countries were way too far ahead already. My thinking, that I’ve stolen from various articles, is that the only hope is for the US to be innovators of the next tech not try to make current tech cheaper or better. In my country Canada and much of the northern States, I think solar is mostly a waste anyway. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tariff-on-imported-solar-panels-a-veritable-smorgasbord-of-ignorance/807447/42 "2018-01-30T02:09:41Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > You are ignoring that not everything is a whataboutism. Whatever… :), really that is only muddling the waters. What others pointed out is that we can point at what Trump is doing as bad while acknowledging that Obama did not do it right about tariffs, so a bit of a pox on him, the issue here is that we have to deal with the epidemic of ignorance that Trump is using to justify his path now. (Because, clearly it has little to do about protecting American jobs) > **[Trump tariffs will save some solar jobs and destroy others](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/trump-tariffs-will-save-some-solar-jobs-and-destroy-others/2018/01/22/756feb60-fca2-11e7-8f66-2df0b94bb98a_story.html?utm_term=.3fba9db931a3)** > > The president’s “America first” trade policy carries real risks for some U.S. manufacturers. One does not need to look too far on what garbage Trump is using also to go this way: > **[Fact Checking Trump’s Climate Delusions](https://thinc.blog/2018/01/29/fact-checking-trumps-climate-delusions/)** > > Scientists get tired of repeating the same facts over and over again. Lesson from Comms and marketing is, by the time you are ready to hurl from repeating, your audience is hearing for the first ti… > [@](#): > > ``` > President Donald Trump’s description of the climate on planet Earth doesn’t quite match what data show and scientists say. > > ``` > > > [@](#): > > > > In an interview with Piers Morgan airing Sunday on Britain’s ITV News, the president said the world was cooling and warming at the same time and that claims of melting ice caps haven’t come true. > > > > ``` > > TRUMP: “There is a cooling, and there’s a heating. I mean, look, it used to not be climate change, it used to be global warming. That wasn’t working too well because it was getting too cold all over the place.” > > > > Ten different climate scientists contacted by The Associated Press said the president was not accurate about climate change. Rutgers University climate scientist Jennifer Francis responded in an email: “Clearly President Trump is relying on alternative facts to inform his views on climate change. Ice on the ocean and on land are both disappearing rapidly, and we know why: increasing greenhouse gases from burning fossil fuels that trap more heat and melt the ice. ” > > > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tariff-on-imported-solar-panels-a-veritable-smorgasbord-of-ignorance/807447/43 "2018-01-30T04:43:54Z")
Here’s another good explainer on [Vox](https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2018/1/22/16921244/solar-tariff-white-house-itc-trump). But trigger warning: they muddy the waters by mentioning Obama’s tariffs and later on saying > [@](#): > > However, the trade case exposes a rift in the US solar community between manufacturers and installers. Beleaguered US manufacturers like Solar World will benefit somewhat from the tariffs, but installers, who want the lowest-cost hardware, are likely to suffer. While inexplicably forgetting to mention how much Trump sucks on the environment. Other than that, it’s fairly informative. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tariff-on-imported-solar-panels-a-veritable-smorgasbord-of-ignorance/807447/44 "2018-01-30T04:51:22Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Here’s another good explainer on [Vox](https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2018/1/22/16921244/solar-tariff-white-house-itc-trump). But trigger warning: they muddy the waters by mentioning Obama’s tariffs and saying > > While inexplicably forgetting to mention how much Trump sucks on the environment. Other than that, it’s fairly informative. And it is what I pointed before. Just one more thing about Obama, it really does not help Trump to bring him up (or to minimize the points made by me or others about what Trump is doing now). As explained (and ignored again) Trump is following a failed policy… after the results are in from the previous one. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tariff-on-imported-solar-panels-a-veritable-smorgasbord-of-ignorance/807447/45 "2018-01-30T05:17:06Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And it is what I pointed before. Just one more thing about Obama, it really does not help Trump to bring him up (or to minimize the points made by me or others about what Trump is doing now). As explained (and ignored again) Trump is following a failed policy… after the results are in from the previous one. Ok. But the Commission that recommended this tariff is bipartisan, you realize. There is some governmental decision enertia at work. What I’m begging you to understand is that not everything Trump signs in the next 3 years, god permitting, is part of his master plan just because it includes a couple of his buzzwords. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tariff-on-imported-solar-panels-a-veritable-smorgasbord-of-ignorance/807447/46 "2018-01-30T05:21:16Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Ok. But the Commission that recommended this tariff is bipartisan, you realize. Still dumb policy. More so now after the past history of trade and the current state of the atmosphere. > [@CarnalK](#): > > There is some governmental decision enertia at work. What I’m begging you to understand is that not everything Trump signs in the next 3 years, god permitting, is part of his master plan just because it includes a couple of his buzzwords. Good thing that I did not say that, in the other thread I thought that for sure it is based also on his abysmal shallow thinking. There is nothing masterful about it. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tariff-on-imported-solar-panels-a-veritable-smorgasbord-of-ignorance/807447/47 "2018-01-30T05:26:07Z")
A master plan doesn’t have to be masterful. It’s just your “big picture” plan. And before you say it, no not everyone’s big picture plan includes enough of the picture. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tariff-on-imported-solar-panels-a-veritable-smorgasbord-of-ignorance/807447/48 "2018-01-30T07:36:12Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Not hypocrisy, ignorance. I bet you had no idea Obama had done the exact same thing. So now that you know, do you think Obama was sticking a finger in the eye of environmentalists and trying to help out coal when he instituted a 31% tariff on Chinese solar panels a mere 5 years ago? In fairness, yes I did not know Obama had done the same thing. Thanks for helping to fight my ignorance. As for your question; yeah I think it was dumb that Obama did it, and it’s dumb that trump did it. No gotcha there for me. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tariff-on-imported-solar-panels-a-veritable-smorgasbord-of-ignorance/807447/49 "2018-01-30T08:16:24Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > In fairness, yes I did not know Obama had done the same thing. Thanks for helping to fight my ignorance. > > As for your question; yeah I think it was dumb that Obama did it, and it’s dumb that trump did it. No gotcha there for me. The Suniva and Solarworld Scandals overshadowed it, and for good reason. But the half a billing bucks flushed down the drain by Solyndra is another datapoint to not repeat the same error again. Remember Trump claims to be a great businessman…yet can’t do basic research on the impacts (or thinks the impacts will be less risky than angering his voter base) [https://piie.com/sites/default/files/publications/pb/pb12-9.pdf](https://piie.com/sites/default/files/publications/pb/pb12-9.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2018, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tariff-on-imported-solar-panels-a-veritable-smorgasbord-of-ignorance/807447/50 "2018-01-31T20:28:21Z")
> [@B-Rad](#): > > Thank you. I hate the guy, but I still resist the urge to knee-jerk disparage _everything_ he does. If I’m grasping this right, the tariff may not be such a bad thing IF 1) US homeowners are incentivized to buy (gov’t rebates), and 2) US companies are incentivized to manufacture (gov’t subsidies we would no longer give to oil). Both would mitigate the artificially inflated price of the hardware, thereby nurturing the installation element. Does that sound right? I would agree with you, but that is not the way it will work. Subsidies to oil will continue and I believe he has already stopped government rebates for solar rooftop panels. The US manufacture of the panels has essentially disappeared; the real action is in the installation and that will be depressed. It requires seeing through red-colored glasses to not see that the main purpose of this tariff is to discourage growth of alternate energy sources. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tariff-on-imported-solar-panels-a-veritable-smorgasbord-of-ignorance/807447/51 "2018-02-01T05:39:34Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The Suniva and Solarworld Scandals overshadowed it, and for good reason. > > But the half a billing bucks flushed down the drain by Solyndra is another datapoint to not repeat the same error again. And what exactly is the good reason those scandals should overshadow Obama’s tariffs, rather than they be part of the scandal? Were a tonne of economists thinking Obama’s tariffs a great solution back then but not now? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tariff-on-imported-solar-panels-a-veritable-smorgasbord-of-ignorance/807447/52 "2018-02-01T06:03:03Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > And what exactly is the good reason those scandals should overshadow Obama’s tariffs, rather than they be part of the scandal? Were a tonne of economists thinking Obama’s tariffs a great solution back then but not now? I can’t answer for anyone else opinions except my own. I would point out that economists have a hard time outperforming blindfolded monkeys though…and the talking heads on TV are typically more interested in their brand than any form of objectivity. [https://www.cass.city.ac.uk/news-and-events/news/2013/april/monkeys-beat-market-cap-indices](https://www.cass.city.ac.uk/news-and-events/news/2013/april/monkeys-beat-market-cap-indices) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tariff-on-imported-solar-panels-a-veritable-smorgasbord-of-ignorance/807447/53 "2018-02-01T06:18:01Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I can’t answer for anyone else opinions except my own. > > I would point out that economists have a hard time outperforming blindfolded monkeys though…and the talking heads on TV are typically more interested in their brand than any form of objectivity. > > [https://www.cass.city.ac.uk/news-and-events/news/2013/april/monkeys-beat-market-cap-indices](https://www.cass.city.ac.uk/news-and-events/news/2013/april/monkeys-beat-market-cap-indices) Well I was asking your opinion on whether the Obama tariffs should have been overshadowed by or included in the Suniva and Solarworld story. Not your opinion on economists. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tariff-on-imported-solar-panels-a-veritable-smorgasbord-of-ignorance/807447/54 "2018-02-01T06:49:22Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Well I was asking your opinion on whether the Obama tariffs should have been overshadowed by or included in the Suniva and Solarworld story. Not your opinion on economists. It was a tiny market, and the “anti-dumping tariffs” like the tire tariff and the retaliation tariffs did make the news. It is not that it isn’t important, but there is a limited amount of time to work on things. Especially seeing as that market was dead more due to a bubble than imports. [![](https://www.mdpi.com/sustainability/sustainability-10-00160/article_deploy/html/images/sustainability-10-00160-g001.png) ](https://www.mdpi.com/sustainability/sustainability-10-00160/article_deploy/html/images/sustainability-10-00160-g001.png) But note how, despite the exponential growth of the market, our tariffs killed any potential rebound when china just imposed polysilicon tariffs and built out their own capacity vs buying from us. But I don’t know what you are trying to convince me of, protectionist policies are almost always bad. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tariff-on-imported-solar-panels-a-veritable-smorgasbord-of-ignorance/807447.md?page=2)