# Taser Use Justified? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 6, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161 "2005-06-06T17:46:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/221 "2005-06-09T02:21:12Z")
> [@treis](#): > > So the moral of that story is do not attempt to pull over drug dealers becuase they might shoot at you? How does that in anyway relate to a traffic violation? That’s rather disingenuous. The moral is that traffic stops are unpredictable and dangerous, and a prudent officer treats each one as a worst case scenario. If you don’t think so, watch the FX network one weekend; it lives off of showing traffic stops (not drug stops - traffic stops) gone bad. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/222 "2005-06-09T02:29:57Z")
> [@cosmodan](#): > > Just to be clear, was she wrong is saying that officers aren’t allowed to use radar when moveing Yes. That was nonsense. [quote=One point and this may well be an urban legend, but it’s well known that once a cop opens your door during a traffic stop, you’re being arrested.[/quote] Nah, Urban Legend. He could very well be removing you to conduct a search per Carol Doctrine. This allows him to look in certain areas of the vehicle if he has Probable Cause to believe something specific is in there. You’re not under arrest until/unless he finds it. That’s just one example off the top of my head. But just opening your door does not an arrest make. > [@tries](#): > > Please tell me how she was aggressive, hostile or eager to fight. From [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) “Main Entry: bel·lig·er·ent Pronunciation: b&-'li-j&-r&nt Function: adjective 1 : waging war : carrying on war; specifically : belonging to or recognized as an organized military power protected by and subject to the laws of war **2 : inclined to or exhibiting hostility or a combative _temperament_** ” (bolding and italics are mine) There are always more than one definition, **treis**. “Belligerence” can describe a person’s temperament as well. It’s not just limited to physical violence. Arguing and not cooperating are good examples of hostile temperament. > [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I’ve thus far heard three accounts of folks who have been tasered. The first was an MP who described it as the most excruciating pain he’d ever experienced in his entire life. Pain is obviously relative. I don’t believe MPs use or are ever exposed to pepper spray. I’d like him to get a good shot of OC across the eyes from 4ft away. And then compare the two. > [@](#): > > The second was a radio reporter who voluntarily underwent a tasering, and who likewise described the pain as overwhelming. Overwhelming is a pretty good way to describe it. But c’mon… it lasts for 5 freaking seconds and then it’s all over. There are no lasting effects. The pain is gone instantiously. The third is Bear\_Nenno’s, who blows it off as no big deal. When talking about pain, there’s intensity and longevity. The Taser is intense, but it only lasts 5 seconds. OC lasts for at least an hour and you can still feel it the next day. The next day it feels like you have sand in your eyes and your eyes ache as if from snow blindness or being in bright light all day. > [@](#): > > (Some links: “The Taser was the most excruciating pain he ever felt in his life,” said Joe Diaz, an attorney now representing Beck. He’s an attorney trying to claim is client was treated unfairly and with too much force. I think it’s safe to say his claims are biased! > [@](#): > > and, from a reporter who underwent tasering, You barely feel the half-inch-long barbed needles thump against your back as they bury themselves in your skin. The initial jolt is instantaneous, and for the next five seconds the pain is unimaginable . . . Resistance to the shock is impossible, and officers say one dose is enough to make even drug-crazed suspects beg for mercy. I can go along with most of this. Barely feel the prongs, unimaginable (I surely couldn’t have imagined it) that lasts only 5 second… > [@](#): > > Sorry, Bear. I don’t believe that your experience is typical. I believe the other folks I’ve heard, who describe it as agonizing. Agonizing??? How in the world can something that lasts 5 seconds be agonizing. Shouldn’t it take more than 5 seconds to build up agony?? Yes it hurts, and it’s a very uncomfortable sensation. Your entire body locks up all at once. But as soon as you’re realize how bad it sucks, it’s over. Bam 5 seconds. > [@cosmodan](#): > > You’ll note that both officers say they’ve been tasered. Every officer who carries a Taser, has been tased himself. It’s part of the certification and training process. And if you read some of their accounts, you’ll find that my description was not all that atypical. It is the most effective of any less lethal device (that’s deployable within 26ft) and there is ZERO pain after a 5 second jolt. > [@holmes](#): > > Does that mean she really was unable to put her arms behind her back as commanded? If so, then didn’t the officer KNOW that? If he knew that, then why zap her again in order to have her comply with a command, she was now unable to do? The device overwhelms your skeletal musclular system. All your muscles contract as hard as they can and you no longer have control of your body. However, this lasts for 5 seconds. After that, you can move freely. You’ll notice the officer gave the command to put her hands behind her back in between Taserings and not during. He gave her a couple seconds to comply. Instead of complying she kept screaming and (I think) even tried to get up once. All that screaming and acting like she couldn’t move anymore is being melodramatic. > [@](#): > > So now its Bear and the Florida city’s PD. … and about 7000 other departments and their respective legal districts. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/223 "2005-06-09T02:33:09Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Nonsense. I’ve stated multiple times in this thread that police officers are justified in using force to protect themselves. The questions, since they seem to have escaped your notice, are _when_ they may do so, and with _what levels_ of force. Here we agree. The Boyton Beach PD (or whatever PD serves Boyton Beach) has policies, explained by a training sargeant on the linked site, that states that the taser is the correct level of escalation to affect the arrest, and should be used before a physical, flesh-on-flesh confrontation. **Bear** has stated the same, and I’m assuming he doesn’t represent the BBPD. If they went with wrestling the lady out of the car, it would have been against policy, as they would have skipped an escalation step. The training sargeant also noted the policies are constantly reviewed and tweaked, so unless we want to believe the very worst of an entire PD (as opposed to the actions of individual officers), it’s fairly safe to assume that policies are implemented to protect their officers and the perpetrators (to a lesser degree than the officers). It seems you disagree with the order of escalation. I’m more inclined to believe those who are actually in these situations more often, and who have spent considerably more time studying the most affective way to make an arrest. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/224 "2005-06-09T02:48:40Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Pain is obviously relative. I don’t believe MPs use or are ever exposed to pepper spray. I’d like him to get a good shot of OC across the eyes from 4ft away. And then compare the two. Most drivers have never been exposed to pepper spray either. What matters is how painful the taser is to the person being shocked, not whether the person doing the shocking has gone through more painful experiences during his training or has more painful weapons in his arsenal. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/225 "2005-06-09T02:50:29Z")
> [@cosmodan](#): > > PLease clairify. When she pulled away from an officer and said “don’t touch me” does that constitute resisting with violence? There’s also some discussion of her swinging at the second who reached in through the passenger door. The officers mention it as they pick her up. Even if it’s a very casual swing to wards off contact or to keep her cell phone, does that consitute physical resistance? Verbally refusing (saying No, or offering ultimatums like "give me your badge number first then I’ll cooperate), sitting down, pulling your hand away, locking yourself in a car, or materially _lying_ to an officer… these are all examples of Resisting Without Violence. You don’t necessarily after to be resisting _arrest_. The crime is not Resisting Arrest Without Violence. It’s simply Resisting and Officer. If you do anything to impede in the lawful performance of his duities, you can be arrested. If you refuse to comply with a lawful command from an officer, you’re resisting him. Swinging at the officer… A swing with no contact is more of an assault (as opposed to a battery). So a swing would still be resisting without violence. She would be charged with resisting without violence and assault on a police officer – Both still misdemeanors. The thing with Resisting with Violence is you need to have a _Battery_ on an officer charge to go along with it or the DA will throw it out. After all, how can it be violent if no one got punched. But that’s the legal part of it. This says nothing to the fact that officers can increase their use of force based on a suspects actions. They can always stay a step above. Just because someone swung and missed, doesn’t mean their not going to swing again, or that they’ll miss everytime. It’s not like a cop has to say “Well that punched missed too… I have to wait for one to strike me in the face before I can treat her like a violent suspect” So, as you can see, a person can still be violent but not be charged with Resist with Violence. If part or all of this doesn’t make sense. Ask for more clarification. I’m trying to explain the best I can. It was quite possibly the swing at the officer that made him Tase her. Sure he had it out, but that’s how you use it. I think most departments are claiming that merely pulling out a Taser makes the suspect comply in more than half the instances. He kept warning her and then, when the partner tried to get the phone and was swung on, the cop Tased her. Noone here can see that actual swing or what went on in the vehicle. I’m inclined to believe that she _did_ swing at the officer. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/226 "2005-06-09T02:59:33Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > Most drivers have never been exposed to pepper spray either. What matters is how painful the taser is to the person being shocked, not whether the person doing the shocking has gone through more painful experiences during his training or has more painful weapons in his arsenal. No. What matters is how painful the Taser is _compared to other currently accepted less lethal devices_. A person who has only experienced one device - like the Taser - will say it’s the worst, most painfully brutal option available. But if he were given the chance to compare it with the lasting effects of OC or a baton to the forearm, then he’d see it could have been worse. Especially if the baton missed the forearm and broke the elbow. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/227 "2005-06-09T03:17:00Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > No. What matters is how painful the Taser is _compared to other currently accepted less lethal devices_. Only if we’re trying to decide between the taser and another weapon… not if we’re trying to decide whether to use the taser now or wait until a more appropriate time. > [@](#): > > A person who has only experienced one device - like the Taser - will say it’s the worst, most painfully brutal option available. But if he were given the chance to compare it with the lasting effects of OC or a baton to the forearm, then he’d see it could have been worse. I like to think we’re civilized enough to have better justifications for causing others pain than “hey, it could’ve been worse”. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/228 "2005-06-09T03:22:20Z")
a very effective explaination Bear. Much appreciated. It is clear and makes sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/229 "2005-06-09T03:29:53Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > even given your later qualifier the section I quoted from the report you suggested shows this to be untrue. The report does not make the conclusion you do,{ that they would be alive if not for tasers} because it is medically and scientifically invalid. You called it common sense. Interesting that Amnesty International does not. (a) Not my fault if you’re incapable of reasoning past “heart attack” on an autopsy report. (b) Not my fault if you’re capable of ignoring the correlation between tasering and death of an indeterminate but notrivial number of persons. > [@](#): > > It’s a article called "Taser Deaths Grossly Exaggerated " Per your suggestion to me google it yourself. Why, thank you! Seeing as how you hadn’t even remotely suggested a source or title the first time around, that’s mighty statesmanlike of you to, like, mention it upon request. Never mind that your cite comes from “Michigan Taser Distributing.” Heck, next time why don’t you just cite to [www.tasertheirsorryasses.com](http://www.tasertheirsorryasses.com)? > [@](#): > > Cute. We are at an impasse because you flatly refuse to admit what any reasonable person would. You forgot the :p. > [@](#): > > ``` > 1. It is possible she had a weapon > > ``` It is possible that anybody has a weapon. Zap! Pow! Take that, mouthy pain in the ass! > [@](#): > > ``` > 2. The officers had no way of knowing if she had one or not. > > ``` Ditto. > [@](#): > > ``` > You want the officers to assume she was no risk and try to cajole her out or physically force her out. > > ``` Or at least spend, like 90 seconds trying. > [@](#): > > That assumption is how some officers get seriously hurt and exactly what the taser is meant to avoid as well as more serious injury to her. Well then heck, put a bullet in her mouthy pain in the ass head. After all, she might have a gun, and we have no way of knowing, and somebody might get hurt if the failure to kill her results in a meteor falling from the sky! ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/230 "2005-06-09T03:32:33Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > A person who has only experienced one device - like the Taser - will say it’s the worst, most painfully brutal option available. But if he were given the chance to compare it with the lasting effects of OC or a baton to the forearm, then he’d see it could have been worse. > > Especially if the baton missed the forearm and broke the elbow. How many people have been killed by police batons? For present purposes, I’ll even accept people who were high on drugs or who had unusually deadly elbows. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/231 "2005-06-09T03:36:50Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > I was using them in the sense that the former is passive, while the latter is active, a distinction that seems borne out in Bear\_Nenno’s felony/misdemeanor comment. > > On the fact that upwards of 100 people (estimates vary) are reported to have been killed by tasers. If you have evidence that the use of limited physical force to take suspects passively resisting arrest into custody results in anywhere near that number of deaths, on a per incident basis (since physical force is far, far more common than taser use), I would be happy to re-evaluate that estimation. The problem with this statistic is that it doesn’t address why the person died. There is a certain amount of carrot logic in the number. The Taser related deaths in my area of the country are generally the result of a drug induced psychotic episode. The cause of death is attributable more to drug overdose than the Taser. If a Taser is the trigger to a heart attack (which is what I usually hear about) then the situation needs to be reviewed as to alternative methods of restraint. From my observation, it is usually the most dangerous situations to the officer that results in death. Using a stun devise is supposed to be a less violent method of restraint. I am not in a position to pass judgement between a Taser and Mace but they are both potential hazards to someone with heart or respiratory problems. The alternative is to use a night stick or a football style pile-on by a half-dozen officers. The latter is only practical with advanced notice and unobstructed access to the person (such as a prison cell extraction). Someone sitting in a car has the potential of using the car as both a weapon and a tool for escape. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/232 "2005-06-09T03:48:07Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The Taser related deaths in my area of the country are generally the result of a drug induced psychotic episode. The cause of death is attributable more to drug overdose than the Taser. How many times do I have to say it? _Tasers likely caused those deaths in conjunction with other factors such as drugs, alcohol, and weak hearts. But take away the tasers, and those people are still alive (albeit high, drunk, or congested)._ Christ, you guys are familiar with the concept that there can be more than one necessary cause of a result, aren’t you? > [@](#): > > If a Taser is the trigger to a heart attack (which is what I usually hear about) then the situation needs to be reviewed as to alternative methods of restraint. My point exactly. If one out of every thousand people who gets tasered is going to end up dead, you’d better review the alternatives. > [@](#): > > From my observation, it is usually the most dangerous situations to the officer that results in death. No kidding? > [@](#): > > The alternative is to use a night stick or a football style pile-on by a half-dozen officers. The latter is only practical with advanced notice and unobstructed access to the person (such as a prison cell extraction). Someone sitting in a car has the potential of using the car as both a weapon and a tool for escape. Yet another argument for tasering everyone at every traffic stop. Heck, who needs to evaluate the actual circumstances when we can just hypothesize how the driver might cause meteors to fall from the sky? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/233 "2005-06-09T03:53:15Z")
> [@treis](#): > > The officer never told the woman that she was under arrest. He merely opened the door and made a grab for her. I don’t see how being disagreeable increases the chances of you having a weapon. Again is that what we really want to use to judge people? How little they question a police officer? It was pointed out before that he is not required to tell her he’s about to arrest her. I’m no expert but my guess would be that by telling her before she gets out he is risking her being in a more advantageous position to resist arrest or attempt to flee which is more dangerous for the officers and others. Doesn’t that make sense? It was also pointed out that an officer has every right to expect compliance when he asks her to step out even if he has no intention of arresting her. You point out that the officer never informed her he was going to arrest her. Yet when the officer asks her to get out of the car she doesn’t ask why, she simply says no. Then she tells the person on the phone that the officer is telling her he is going to arrest her, even when he hasn’t said so. I’d say it’s very probable that she knew he was about to arrest her and why and she still resisted. > [@](#): > > Seriously please give me a list of what she did that made her an increased threat to the officer. I would say she set the stage for no cooperation from the start. During that time the officer never treated as a physical threat. When he discovered her suspended license he had cause to arrest her and reason to suspect her verbally combative attitude might turn physical. He ordered her from the car twice. She didn’t ask why, she just refused and was on the phone to an unknown person. She’s refusing a lawful command and calling some unknown person. This increases the potential threat to the officer. When he attempts to make her comply by reaching in for her she pulls away. That’s a crucial point. In doing so **she** has escalated the situation. At this point the officer can reasonably expect her to put up a fight and has no way of knowing if she has a weapon or how far she will take it. He also has to consider the danger of her fleeing in her vehicle since she’s still in her car. That’s a potential danger to others that he is obligated to nullify. > [@](#): > > What did this woman do that made her any more potentially dangerous than any other motorist pulled over? Disagreeing with the legaility of the stop, pulling her body away when the officer tried to grab her or just being a pain in the ass? Well driving with a suspended license, being verbally combative from the get go, and most importantly, refusing to cooperate with an officer during the lawful execution of his duties. Wouldn’t you say that separates her from a huge percentage of other motorists pulled over? > [@](#): > > She had initially refused a couple other requests but then complied without being tased. I feel that she would have gotten out of the car if the officer didn’t just yell at her and then pull a taser in 15 seconds. and you may be right but that is an unknown by you, me, and the officers on the scene. As pointed out to you in the above post because of that unknown the officers are trained to deal with worse case scenario. The vehicle she’s sittng in is more potentially lethal than their stun guns. If she flees and someone is killed during a chase who do you suppose gets blamed for that? > [@](#): > > Sorry, all of the responsibility goes with the trained person who pulled a weapon and used it. I don’t agree. We have a responsibility as citizens to cooperate with police officers in the preformance of their duties. She failed thsi responsibility big time. The officer has the responsibility to preform his duties professionally and within the guidelines of his training. He did exactly that. He didn’t respond emotionally to her crappy attitude. He remained professional throughout the incident. > [@](#): > > She made no physically aggressive move and I did not see anything that would make me believe she were more likely than the average motorist to have a weapon. I would note that the officer had no problem sticking around for a few minutes talking on his radio. The average motorist would have cooperated. The fact she resisted made it more likely that she might have a weapon under the unkown factor previously mentioned, as well as the potentially lethal weapon she was sitting in. What radio conversation are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/234 "2005-06-09T04:05:20Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > The average motorist would have cooperated. Ah ha! Progress! We now agree that the upper 50th percentile of people in terms of cooperativeness during a traffic stop should not be tasered. Watch out, all you smart aleks. 50,000 volts coming your way. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/235 "2005-06-09T04:08:48Z")
Any method of subduction may cause death, **Minty Green**. This [guy](http://chapelhill.indymedia.org/news/2003/03/2875.php) would most likely have benefited from the use of a Taser and would probably still be alive today. I’m sure if I spent more than three seconds searching, I could easily find over 100 cases just like this one. Cases where a suspect died as a result of the combination of physical trauma from police officers, drug use, and current medical conditions. Though the officer are not at fault in his death, had they not tackled him and punched him and clubbed him, he would still be alive – that was your test wasn’t it? That regardless of his present condition, if there was no Taser the man would be alive so the Taser is bad? Well here it was the physical techniques that caused the death. The officers were not excessively violent or abusive. Yet, the man still died. And notice that the suspect was not violently resisting until AFTER the cops bum rushed him and took him to the ground. It’s not uncommon for a suspect to be simply nonviolently resisting. And then, once you physically try to take them to the ground or cuff them, they become increasingly violent, requiring even more physical force (punching and clubbing) from the officer. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/236 "2005-06-09T04:17:30Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Any method of subduction may cause death, **Minty Green**. Some methods of subduction are more likely to cause death than others, **Near\_Nenno**. Also, when weighing the risks and utilityies of tasers vs. dragging mouthy pains in the ass out of their vehicles, please make sure to consider the relative incidence of the two reactions. 100 deaths by wrestling suspects to the ground is a drop in the bucket compared to 100 deaths by taser, if the overall incidence of wrestling outnumbers tasers by 100 to 1. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/237 "2005-06-09T04:26:08Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Yet another argument for tasering everyone at every traffic stop. Heck, who needs to evaluate the actual circumstances when we can just hypothesize how the driver might cause meteors to fall from the sky? Evaluate the circumstances? When does this magic Kodak moment take place? This person was under arrest. How many seconds of evaluation are you going to take after being struck? Does the person have to draw blood first? How’s officer minty green going to extract Miss-Congeniality from the car? Give us a blow by blow account starting with: “Mam, please step out of the car”. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/238 "2005-06-09T04:26:55Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > (a) Not my fault if you’re incapable of reasoning past “heart attack” on an autopsy report. (b) Not my fault if you’re capable of ignoring the correlation between tasering and death of an indeterminate but notrivial number of persons. Your sarcastic insults don’t make you any less wrong. If you’re insinuateing your conclusion is more accurate than the professionals who have studied it then it’s certainly not me ignoreing the facts. You misquoted the existing facts{unintentionally or otherwise} and then when proof was placed in front of you you refuse to accept it. > [@](#): > > Why, thank you! Seeing as how you hadn’t even remotely suggested a source or title the first time around, that’s mighty statesmanlike of you to, like, mention it upon request. Which happens to more courtesy than you showed the first time I asked for a cite. > [@](#): > > Never mind that your cite comes from “Michigan Taser Distributing.” Heck, next time why don’t you just cite to [www.tasertheirsorryasses.com](http://www.tasertheirsorryasses.com)? ture, but it was not their material. It’s an article from the Cincinnati Enquirer, a newspaper in a different state. You convientiently left out that tidbit. > [@](#): > > It is possible that anybody has a weapon. Zap! Pow! Take that, mouthy pain in the ass! > > Ditto. > > Or at least spend, like 90 seconds trying. > > Well then heck, put a bullet in her mouthy pain in the ass head. After all, she might have a gun, and we have no way of knowing, and somebody might get hurt if the failure to kill her results in a meteor falling from the sky! Here’s an interesting pattern. When presented with realistic scenarios you respond with exaggeration that makes no legitimate point. It’s been pointed out that even in routine traffic stops officers are trained to anticipate the worse case scenario in order to save lives. Is it hard to understand? ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/239 "2005-06-09T04:31:03Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Some methods of subduction are more likely to cause death than others, **Bear\_Nenno**. > > Also, when weighing the risks and utilityies of tasers vs. dragging mouthy pains in the ass out of their vehicles, please make sure to consider the relative incidence of the two reactions. 100 deaths by wrestling suspects to the ground is a drop in the bucket compared to 100 deaths by taser, if the overall incidence of wrestling outnumbers tasers by 100 to 1. Yeah, but now we’re just making up numbers. . . If those were in fact the actual numbers, then you’d be on to something. But they’re not. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/240 "2005-06-09T04:52:52Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Ah ha! Progress! We now agree that the upper 50th percentile of people in terms of cooperativeness during a traffic stop should not be tasered. I think it’s quite a few more than 50% that tend to cooperate. That doesn’t mean they like it or say thank you officer sir. Thy’re just smart enough to not resist when an officer is pointing a weapon and issueing a command. I’ve been pulled over plenty and I asked questions and dealt with aggressive officers without any physical confrontation. How did I pull off that magical statistic? By repsecting their authority even when I didn’t agree with their method, and by respecting the difficult job they do even when they weren’t doing it in a way I totally approved of. What a concept. > [@](#): > > Watch out, all you smart aleks. 50,000 volts coming your way. or possibly those who repeatedly resist an officer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161.md?page=13)