# Taser Use Justified? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 6, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161 "2005-06-06T17:46:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/301 "2005-06-12T04:37:35Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Oh, and I stand corrected that the Rodney beating would have been prevented by the use of a Taser. I trust Bryan Ekers is properly informed. I don’t understand your statement. The only thing the King case says about tasers is that tasers are not a sure method of incapacitating a suspect (or at least the model of tasers used that night), particularly when the suspect is especially charged up on adrenaline. Tasers are not a perfect alternative to choke holds, baton hits, or officer swarming, but then what is? As for the taser use on King, it’s quite well-documented and appears on the famous videotape. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/302 "2005-06-12T12:28:00Z")
> [@WonJohnSoup](#): > > No offense, but do you have any law enforcement experience? I usually try not to go deeply into analyze specific tactics like how close he would have to stay away from the suspect too keep her from driving away and such. And I really mean this with all due respect, but what you’re saying is the kind of quarter-backing that the officer objected to when the woman told her how to do his job 🙂 \*\*. I’m just saying I’ve seen worse situations that were handled much[better?} than this, and I think this \*\*(well these two apparently) officers didn’t perform very well which lead to what was probably an avoidable tasering. No I haven’t any law enforcement experience. I’m going by whats already been posted in this thread and a little reason. It seems to me that once they’ve decided to arrest her they don’t want her to start her car and try to flee. They also want to minimize the chance for anybody to get hurt. Several posters seem to consider the tasering as more violent than wrestling her out or even pepper spray. I’m sorry any of that is ever nessecary but I understand that from the police point of view the taser is a way to reduce injuries to suspects and officers. It’s preferable to any physical confrontation or even pepper spray. You make a valid point so I’ll stop the second guessing. I’d be interested in hearing what situations you’ve seen that were handled better. I’ve no doubt they exist. I’m just curious. > [@](#): > > I think the question of whether this was _legally_ justified has been pretty much resolved, no? Heck, I’m guessing Bricker is a lawyer and can easily look up the outcome of this case (did it lead to one?). I figured we were debating about whether this was justifiable on a ‘moral’ level. I happen to think it wasn’t. I mean really, can you imagine this being legally justifiable for long if every officer handled their traffic-stop arrests this way? I imagine the departments themselves would get rid of the tasers just to avoid this kind of thing. Okay, lets accept that it was technically legal and consider the moral aspect. I still disagree with you {but thats okay} I don’t think the officer has any moral obligation to achieve best case scenario in every incident. Consider the number of incidents this officer has in a week, or a month. Even with his training I think it’s reasonable to allow him a moral spectrum that goes from “Wow that was awesome” to “Well okay, but you could have done better” The fact that it could have been better doesn’t make him a moral failure. It merely puts him on the other end of the acceptable moral spectrum. Do you see my point? I deal with the public every day in a less potentially dangerous way. Although I’d love to achieve the ideal in every situation I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect that. If I have a disgruntled customer I might be able to difuse the situation with a smile and a little humor, or, on a different day I might be blunt and direct. One achieves better results. Both are acceptable. Just a reminder. Several posters refer to this lady as if she was the average citizen at a simple speeding traffic stop. She wasn’t. She was committing a crime by driving. It really changes things when an officer has to arrest someone. The situation is more potentially dangerous for everyone. When that person resists arrest that escalates it even more. It changes what we should expect morally as well as legally. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/303 "2005-06-12T13:00:24Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > The point wasn’t about only minor injuries and you know it. Then why did the guy who made the point make it by listing minor injuries? > [@Magiver](#): > > Why would you expect to see a cite regarding a low-dollar payout for a minor beating? If my original opinion is correct (Tasers are seen as a replacement for night sticks) then the lack of evidence would support that. Only if tasers have more or less displaced old-fashioned beatings, which they clearly have not. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/304 "2005-06-12T13:17:55Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Then why did the guy who made the point make it by listing minor injuries? Oh please. It’s perfectly obvious he was speaking of injuries in general resulting from a physical altercation in contrast to the relatively slim chance of injury caused by taser. I think the fact that you dropped broken noses and rephrased it to be only black eyes reveals what game you’re playing. Nice try. > [@](#): > > Only if tasers have more or less displaced old-fashioned beatings, which they clearly have not. Got any numbers to back this up? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/305 "2005-06-12T16:32:31Z")
What a tremendously silly request. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/306 "2005-06-12T16:51:52Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > What a tremendously silly request. Finally, you’re getting a feel for your previous request. It’s about time. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/307 "2005-06-12T17:01:05Z")
All I asked for was one _example_. It’s plenty easy to provide [example](http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Midwest/12/01/beating.videotape/) [after](http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/07/28/police.video.trial/) [example](http://www.cnn.com/US/9808/06/police.torture.suit/) of police beatings. Statistics on rates of beatings and taserings? I have no reason to believe that any such thing exists, nor do you. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/308 "2005-06-12T18:53:20Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > All I asked for was one _example_. It’s plenty easy to provide One example of something that was not the point of the discussion, after you were shown to be incorrect. > [@](#): > > I have no reason to believe that any such thing exists, nor do you. I see, so you made an assertion about something you don’t believe any statistics exist for. that makes “\*\*which they clearly have not \*\*” kinda ludicrious doesn’t it? as in "tremendously silly!! I think we’re done here. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/309 "2005-06-12T19:10:22Z")
In doing a little more reading on taser statistics I came upon an article called Tasers : a reassessment. by the Coalition for Justice and Accountability. [PDF] Their claim is that in certain areas the incidents of violence between police and the public actually went up after the introduction of tasers, indicateing that officers are useing them in situations where they previously might seek a nonviolent alternative. Add that to the known risk of tasers to people with medical conditions or under the influnce of chemicals. If this proves to be correct then it’s a solid arguement against tasers or at the very least, much stricter guidelines. This isn’t what the OP was about but I thought it was interesting info on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/310 "2005-06-12T20:37:57Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > One example of something that was not the point of the discussion, after you were shown to be incorrect. Surely you jest. You actually think I was challenging you to provide an example of _any_ police brutality lawsuit that paid out significant money? Goodness, that would have been quite stupid of me, given that I can tick off several right off the top of my head. Nope, you’re just going to have to believe me when I tell you my challenge was for a lawsuit that paid off for injuries as minimal as a black eye. > [@](#): > > I see, so you made an assertion about something you don’t believe any statistics exist for. that makes “\*\*which they clearly have not \*\*” kinda ludicrious doesn’t it? Not at all. Just read the newspapers, or watch a few episodes of _Cops_ and see how often the police still dispense (justified) smackdowns with uncooperative/threatening suspects. One need not have access to precise data in order to observe that tasers are used a whole lot less often than physical force. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/311 "2005-06-12T20:41:31Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > One need not have access to precise data in order to observe that tasers are used a whole lot less often than physical force. Usually only by departments that don’t have tasers. That is changing, rapidly. If you watch the cops taser episode for instance, they show up on a domestic and taser two people. The obvious attitude is “with these things we no longer have to beat on these guys”. After the arrest nobody is bleeding or bruised or scraped up. Much better than the old way. I don’t think it will be long before cops will be required to taser a resisting suspect before going hands on. Its a much better solution. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/312 "2005-06-12T21:07:38Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Surely you jest. You actually think I was challenging you to provide an example of _any_ police brutality lawsuit that paid out significant money? No and I never said that. > [@](#): > > Goodness, that would have been quite stupid of me, given that I can tick off several right off the top of my head. Nope, you’re just going to have to believe me when I tell you my challenge was for a lawsuit that paid off for injuries as minimal as a black eye. No I don’t have to. Regardless, that wasn’t the point being discussed. Even if it was the cite given isn’t just about major injuries. It covers all police excessive force charges from shooting on down to and including the relatively minor ones. Thats obvious to anyone. Your challange was met and you can’t admit it. Thats your choice. Mine is to not discuss this again. As I said 'were done here. > [@](#): > > Not at all. Just read the newspapers, or watch a few episodes of _Cops_ and see how often the police still dispense (justified) smackdowns with uncooperative/threatening suspects. One need not have access to precise data in order to observe that\*\* tasers are used a whole lot less often than physical force\*\*. When you make a statement like that in GD you do need data to back it up. You admit you have none. All you’ve presented is evidence that beatings still occur even with taser use. That doesn’t support your previous statement. and watchings cops doesn’t support the statement you just made which I bolded. I’m thinking this is how you amuse yourself. Making statements you know are ridiculous in GD and then refusing to acknowledge any mistake. If so, as I said to **Scooby** , I’m not interested. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/313 "2005-06-12T22:33:26Z")
No, as a matter of fact, I am not a troll. Now, back to the ridiculous subject at hand, with statistics straight from the manufacturer’s website: > [@](#): > > Phoenix, AZ > > From 2002 to 2003, Phoenix police reported that officer shootings had dropped, directly resulting from the use of TASER technology as an alternative to deadly force. > > Deployments of TASER devices (Jan. to June) > > 2002: 71 > 2003: 164 > > Officer-involved shootings (Jan to June) > > 2002: 15 > 2003: 8 > > Source: The Arizona Republic [http://www.taser.com/facts/stats.htm](http://www.taser.com/facts/stats.htm) Now, are you seriously suggesting that the Phoenix police were involved in _less_ than 164 physical confrontations with criminal suspects in 2003? And keep in mind, it’s quite likely that a number of those 164 taser uses also involved the use of phsyical force. Even better, here’s the [Seattle P.D.'s statistics](http://www.taser.com/documents/seattlepduse.pdf): > [@](#): > > How often are the tasers used? > > Since the first tasers were deployed in late 2000 through August 2004, tasers have been used in 570 incidents. This averages to about 13 taser incidents per month. So, would you suggest that the Seattle P.D. uses physical force against criminal suspects less than 13 times per month? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/314 "2005-06-12T22:54:57Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > No, as a matter of fact, I am not a troll. Glad to hear it. In that case your style mystifies me. Now, back to the ridiculous subject at hand, with statistics straight from the manufacturer’s website: > [@](#): > > Now, are you seriously suggesting that the Phoenix police were involved in _less_ than 164 physical confrontations with criminal suspects in 2003? No , although to be correct that was half a year wasn’t it . Jan to June. > [@](#): > > So, would you suggest that the Seattle P.D. uses physical force against criminal suspects less than 13 times per month? No, I’ll concede the point if the last line which I bolded was in refernece to any taser use vs. any physical force. Going back to your original statement we see thats not the case. > [@](#): > > Only if tasers have more or less displaced **old-fashioned beatings** , which they clearly have not. In fact the examples you gave after that were severe beatings were they not? Here again you’d like to change the details of your arguement to try and win some point. Thats a no no. the use of physical force is hardly the same as a severe beating, wouldn’t you agree? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2005, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/315 "2005-06-13T03:02:34Z")
Correct. It’s just damn hard to find news stories titled “Traffic suspect jailed after brief, injury-free struggle.” ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2005, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/316 "2005-06-13T11:08:06Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Correct. It’s just damn hard to find news stories titled “Traffic suspect jailed after brief, injury-free struggle.” and you don’t need one since that wasn’t your arguement to begin with. Do you have any support for your arguement that tasers have not more or less replaced a good ole fashoined beating? You haven’t provided any yet . ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/317 "2005-06-14T21:15:05Z")
The lady in question was on A Current Afair today. Basically (from what I saw I think I flipped onto halfway through) they just went through what happened and she talked about what she was thinking. She admitted that she acted wrongly and was “on edge” but felt that the officer also acted wrongly. Apparently all charges were dropped against here which seems that the officer made a mistake on the license. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161/318 "2005-06-14T23:43:47Z")
> [@treis](#): > > The lady in question was on A Current Afair today. Basically (from what I saw I think I flipped onto halfway through) they just went through what happened and she talked about what she was thinking. She admitted that she acted wrongly and was “on edge” but felt that the officer also acted wrongly. Apparently all charges were dropped against here which seems that the officer made a mistake on the license. Thanks for the update. I assume you mean she didn’t have a suspended license. Or maybe they just dropped the charges to avoid dealing with a lawsuit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taser-use-justified/307161.md?page=15)