# Tasing the deaf & disabled **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 28, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tasing-the-deaf-disabled/504598 "2009-07-28T21:18:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tasing-the-deaf-disabled/504598/41 "2009-07-30T02:18:30Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > This might be slightly out of order, I admit. **Tasers take down people from a distance without killing them (absent outliers of people with heart conditions or other health conditions that don’t lend themselves to electrical shock)**. When the police have to incapacitate, physical force leads to bruises, broken bones, and sometimes death. Guns obviously lead to death. Having tools in the midrange helps. This ignores the fact that tasers do not merely peacefully put people to sleep. In fact, many people are injured pursuant to having a taser used against them. An incapacitated person, whose muscles are being subject to electric shock stimuli, is unable to keep themselves erect. They fall, often onto concrete or asphalt, which can cause both minor injuries and major head trauma. Tasers can also cause seizures in people with no prior history of such. At least one such incident happened to a police officer this year. [cite](http://health.usnews.com/articles/health/healthday/2009/03/16/taser-stun-guns-can-cause-brain-injury.html) Another point: why do so many people think it’s okay to cause pain, as long as there is no injury? I mean, that’s what torture is all about, isn’t it? Causing as much pain as possible without actually impairing the subject so much that they cannot comport to your orders? My stance is that causing pain is as wrong as causing injury, and the taser allows people to create a false dichotomy that one is different, and not as bad, as the other. To me, that’s bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tasing-the-deaf-disabled/504598/42 "2009-07-30T02:35:39Z")
> [@NoJustice](#): > > He was probably flashing gang signs too. 🙂 How do you say, “Don’t tase me, bro” in ASL?" (Damn, I’m going to Hell, aren’t I?) ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tasing-the-deaf-disabled/504598/43 "2009-07-30T02:41:00Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > How do you say, “Don’t tase me, bro” in ASL?" > > (Damn, I’m going to Hell, aren’t I?) Pff. Where else would you want to be? I think Hell’s got all the good bands, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tasing-the-deaf-disabled/504598/44 "2009-07-30T02:42:07Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Oh, bullshit. Even if you’ve got an umbrella with a pointy end (most of them look like [this](http://umbrella.co.uk/images/P/fulton_microslim_umbrella.jpg) these days), they’re still made of hollow aluminum rods that would break in half before they could do any serious damage to a human body. You might be able to break the skin if you stabbed someone straight on with one, but there is no way in hell you’ll get it to go “through” a body. This. Unless you are The Penguin, an umbrella would be useless in a fight. It’s too weak and flimsy. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tasing-the-deaf-disabled/504598/45 "2009-07-30T02:53:20Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > What threads have you been reading, and on what message board, where there is a “magical method is that is always assumed to exist in these threads”? > > I’ve started a couple of threads about tasers, and I don’t recall ever seeing anyone claiming that such a thing existed. Since it _always_ pops up in taser threads, I’m sure you can provide some cites for us. If there’s no alternative, then where’s the debate? He was bad and evil for choosing the **best possible option**? 😕 That has to be the stupidest reason ever to throw something up for debate and to castigate someone. If there isn’t the magical other option, then what the hell is anyone think they’re complaining about? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tasing-the-deaf-disabled/504598/46 "2009-07-30T03:02:46Z")
Tasers are a weapon, used to force compliance. They are intended to be used as an alternative to other, more deadly weapons. It’s a good tool, backed by good intentions. However, it is not to be used indiscriminately, anymore than a night stick would be used. If someone is not a threat, there should be no need to use it. How could someone who is stuck on the shitter a threat? He’s already confined in a little room, so he isn’t going anywhere either. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tasing-the-deaf-disabled/504598/47 "2009-07-30T04:43:14Z")
He’s not a threat so long as he’s confined in his room. But the goal isn’t to keep him locked up, it’s to apprehend him. First of all, how do you get into the room when the other person is holding it closed and fighting to not let you in? The officer chose pepper spray, what’s your solution? Or are you saying the officer should simply have left him as he was in the bathroom? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tasing-the-deaf-disabled/504598/48 "2009-07-30T08:22:48Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > If there’s no alternative, then where’s the debate? He was bad and evil for choosing the **best possible option**? 😕 > > That has to be the stupidest reason ever to throw something up for debate and to castigate someone. > > If there isn’t the magical other option, then what the hell is anyone think they’re complaining about? So are you backpedaling now from your claim that > [@Sage Rat](#): > > this magical method is that is always assumed to exist in these threads ? You wrote that, I’m asking you to back up your assertion. And the topics for debate were listed quite explicitly in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tasing-the-deaf-disabled/504598/49 "2009-07-30T08:24:41Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > He’s not a threat so long as he’s confined in his room. But the goal isn’t to keep him locked up, it’s to apprehend him. > > First of all, how do you get into the room when the other person is holding it closed and fighting to not let you in? The officer chose pepper spray, what’s your solution? Or are you saying the officer should simply have left him as he was in the bathroom? No, the goal of the officer should have been to ascertain the facts before acting. He did not. He simply acted. I need police officers who do more than shoot, then holler “Stop! Or I’ll shoot!” to cover their asses. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tasing-the-deaf-disabled/504598/50 "2009-07-30T15:43:44Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > No, the goal of the officer should have been to ascertain the facts before acting. He did not. He simply acted. I need police officers who do more than shoot, then holler “Stop! Or I’ll shoot!” to cover their asses. I only read the short article you linked, so maybe I missed something. Our deaf and disabled was trespassing, in that the owner of the bathroom wanted him out and gone. He had been in the bathroom for one hour. He refused to answer to knocking. The officers forced the door (perhaps - this is conjecture - to find out if there was a medical emergency), and then had it slammed on them. At this point we have a problem. Someone has been asked to leave, and won’t leave. They are using force (blocking the door), to keep from leaving. They are no longer allowed to be there. What would you have the officer do in this situation? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tasing-the-deaf-disabled/504598/51 "2009-07-30T15:59:31Z")
Send in the mini-HK! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tasing-the-deaf-disabled/504598/52 "2009-07-30T16:08:27Z")
Often the default assumption is that officers don’t need to do anything in situations like this. They should just wait for the guy to come out when he is ready, since this is better than Tasering him or otherwise forcing compliance. My take is that we are arguing from different assumptions. I believe it is acceptable to incur a certain level of risk to the suspect for no other reason than to compel compliance. Those on the other side don’t seem to agree. IOW, it seems on one side, the default for the police is to do nothing. On the other, to take action to force compliance. The problem with threads like this is that they are being argued after the fact, based on information that police don’t always have at the time, and there are always lots of anecdotes to drag in about Rodney King and Diallo and whoever. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tasing-the-deaf-disabled/504598/53 "2009-07-30T16:32:27Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > I only read the short article you linked, so maybe I missed something. > > Our deaf and disabled was trespassing, in that the owner of the bathroom wanted him out and gone. He had been in the bathroom for one hour. He refused to answer to knocking. I agree that the article is short and doesn’t contain an overabundance of details. But you’re also making assumptions here. In fact, we don’t know that the officers were called because of a trespasser. All we know is that they were called because a man had been in the bathroom of a store, reportedly for an hour. You are wrong that it was the owner who called. The story explicitly states that store workers called the police. We don’t know that the worker(s)told the officers “get him out of here”. IMO, it’s more likely that they were told “I don’t know what he’s doing, but other people will need the bathroom; we need some help here.” Also, how does a deaf person “refuse to answer” something they cannot hear? A blind person doesn’t “refuse to read signs” that are all around him. An amputee doesn’t “refuse to walk”. This man is deaf AND has the mental capacity of a 10-year old child. His perceptions of the world are not going to be the same as a fully functioning adult (or even a fully functioning child, really). [quote] The officers forced the door (perhaps - this is conjecture - to find out if there was a medical emergency), and then had it slammed on them. [quote] As you say, this is conjecture. > [@](#): > > At this point we have a problem. Someone has been asked to leave, and won’t leave. They are using force (blocking the door), to keep from leaving. They are no longer allowed to be there. > > What would you have the officer do in this situation? I’m not sure. This particular 1-in-a-million-type situation prolly doesn’t occur often enough for there to be much training or procedure covering it. Has someone been asked to leave if they cannot hear or understand the question? As I said before, I would have liked to see that the officers tried to gather information before acting. From the story I linked, my impression is that the cops came in, asked “is he still in there?” and then went to the door and started knocking, with pepper spray following soon after. Not exactly ideal “Serve & Protect” behaviour, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tasing-the-deaf-disabled/504598/54 "2009-07-30T16:36:58Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I agree that the article is short and doesn’t contain an overabundance of details. But you’re also making assumptions here. In fact, we don’t know that the officers were called because of a trespasser. All we know is that they were called because a man had been in the bathroom of a store, reportedly for an hour. > > You are wrong that it was the owner who called. The story explicitly states that store workers called the police. > > We don’t know that the worker(s)told the officers “get him out of here”. IMO, it’s more likely that they were told “I don’t know what he’s doing, but other people will need the bathroom; we need some help here.” > > Also, how does a deaf person “refuse to answer” something they cannot hear? A blind person doesn’t “refuse to read signs” that are all around him. An amputee doesn’t “refuse to walk”. > > This man is deaf AND has the mental capacity of a 10-year old child. His perceptions of the world are not going to be the same as a fully functioning adult (or even a fully functioning child, really). > > As you say, this is conjecture. > > I’m not sure. This particular 1-in-a-million-type situation prolly doesn’t occur often enough for there to be much training or procedure covering it. Has someone been asked to leave if they cannot hear or understand the question? > > As I said before, I would have liked to see that the officers tried to gather information before acting. From the story I linked, my impression is that the cops came in, asked “is he still in there?” and then went to the door and started knocking, with pepper spray following soon after. Not exactly ideal “Serve & Protect” behaviour, IMO. Employees are owner representatives. So an employee asking is the owner asking. You do not know what else the officers tried either, so if you are going to critque me for trying to fill in the blanks, you should follow the same rules. You also still fail to offer another path for the police to follow. If they knock / talk / yell, and get no response, the logical next step is to force the door. If someone fights back without talking, what would you have them do? ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tasing-the-deaf-disabled/504598/55 "2009-07-30T16:48:30Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Why was the guy in the bathroom for over an hour? The victim said he had a “badly upset stomach.” Food poisoning or norovirus can keep you on the toilet that long. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tasing-the-deaf-disabled/504598/56 "2009-07-30T17:17:03Z")
LOL I see we both are having problems with coding this morning. 🙂 (on preview, I see you fixed yours… sadly mine is past edit window) I don’t think I’ve tried to fill in any of the blanks. I’m just using the information available in the story. Not to nitpick the point, but “owner” and “owner’s employee” are not the same thing. “Owner” carries a lot more gravitas, and is a clearly valid person to ask to have someone removed from the premises. “Employee” doesn’t carry as much as weight, which I suspect is why you initially chose that word. No matter. It’s a small detail. I’ll drop it. I did find more stories being posted about this, with more details, and it looks to me like not only sloppy police work, but also potentially illegal actions on the part of the police. [Alabama Press-Register](http://www.al.com/printer/printer.ssf?/base/news/124877253351170.xml&coll=3) [Electronic Village](http://electronicvillage.blogspot.com/2009/07/antonio-love-alabama-police-taser-deaf.html) via Fox10 News (video here as well). According to these stories, Mr. Love was detained for at least 4 hours (and possibly as many as 6 hours) before being dropped off near his home. Not taken to his home, just to the parking lot. > [@AL P-R](#): > > Brodrick Love said the officers dropped his brother off in the parking lot of their apartment building without saying what happened or why his brother had been missing for six hours. > [@EV story](#): > > The incident happened around 11:00 a.m., and when he was returned home, it was 4:00 in the afternoon. He was never arrested. Love’s mom doesn’t understand. Mr. Love also stated that he was in the bathroom for perhaps 30 minutes before officers arrived. > [@AL P-R](#): > > In an interview Monday afternoon, Love told the Press-Register he had been a customer at the Dollar General numerous times in the past, and he estimated it was about half an hour from the time he entered the bathroom until the pepper spray started coming in. Why was he in there so long? Apparently he was ill. But 30 minutes before police arrived means he was in there like 10-20 minutes before police were called. That’s a lot different than him being in the bathroom for an hour before police were called. I agree that it’s a detail we simply cannot know, but it does affect my outlook on the situation. Mr. Love also states that he had been a customer at the store numerous times, which leads me to wonder how it could be that he wasn’t recognized by employees. I am a regular at several stores in my area, and if I locked myself in the bathroom and didn’t respond for some time, I know that store employees would not call to have me forcibly removed from the premises; they would call to ask for assistance with an unknown problem, possibly medical assistance needed. I know it’s a slim hope in my city (cops here have tackled old men to the ground in broad daylight for no reason, shot unarmed handicapped people, and occasionally kill people for no reason), but I would hope that the response to unknown situations isn’t to immediately resort to violence and the inflicting of pain and possible injury, as it seems to be in this situation. > [@AL P-R](#): > > Love, speaking in sign language that was then translated by his family, said he was in the bathroom because he was sick to his stomach. > > “I wait and sit toilet,” Love’s note read. “I think about someone try break door. I hold door hard.” > > At that point, Bagsby said, the officers saw movement from under the door, indicating that there was someone inside. They then shot pepper spray under the door. \*Bagsby is a police spokesperson. So, they know someone is inside, and not responding to their knocks. Could he be deaf? Could he not speak English and not understand them? Could he have had a seizure? Better to assume that he is some sort of Umbrella Ninja with murderous intent, and start pepper spraying, right? IMO, the police could have asked if anyone had seen him come into the store, if anyone recognized him or knew him. They could have refrained from the quick escalation of the situation. What if it had been a pregnant lady who was deaf, and her water had broken? What if the person inside was injured and unable to respond? Why was violence necessary? The officers also failed to call for a translator, as is the law. > [@AL P-R](#): > > Federal disabilities law requires law enforcement to seek a translator in situations like Love’s, she said. > > Levy said an interpreter was called for but later cancelled when the officers learned that one of the responding ambulance workers knew sign language. > > No credentialed interpreter was ever made available. So, pepper sprayed, tasered 3 times, handcuffed, held prisoner for 4-6 hours without being read his Miranda Rights or being charged with a crime… how did that “serve & protect” anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tasing-the-deaf-disabled/504598/57 "2009-07-30T17:40:06Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > This particular 1-in-a-million-type situation prolly doesn’t occur often enough for there to be much training or procedure covering it. People not obeying the lawful commands of a police officer is hardly a one-in-a-million occurrence. > [@](#): > > This man is deaf AND has the mental capacity of a 10-year old child. His perceptions of the world are not going to be the same as a fully functioning adult (or even a fully functioning child, really). And yet you are willing to take his word for it about everything. _:shrugs:_ Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tasing-the-deaf-disabled/504598/58 "2009-07-30T18:07:09Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > That seems like a pretty heavy response to an umbrella **that’s on the other side of a closed door** to me, especially when the man with the umbrella has said nothing, made no threats, and has not attempted to strike anyone. But it gets worse. > > My $.02 is that the officers are idiots and dangerous to the public. To feel threatened by an umbrella (which we don’t even know Mr. Love had in his hands; it may have been on the floor or propped against the wall for all we know) on the other side of a closed door is ludicrous. To then arrest the man for disorderly conduct after ascertaining the facts (he was sick, is deaf and mentally disabled) shows a further (and huge) lack of judgement. The only thing the officers were wrong in was arresting after learning that he had medical issues. I have no problems with them forcing the door open, pepper spraying, or tasing him because at the time, all they knew was that someone was resisting. Mock it all you want, anything, including an umbrella, can be used as a weapon. I don’t care how unlikely a person thinks that poking an eye out is, but it can happen, and as a cop you have to expect the unexpected. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I’ve said it before and I’ll keep saying it: tasers should be taken away from the police. They use them with nary a thought and see no problem with inflicting great pain on a person for virtually no reason at all. In this case, the officers went about their job poorly and a man who wasn’t hurting anyone or anything was subjected to intense suffering. I don’t believe this case makes a great statement for not using tasers. To the cops, some unknown guy behind a door was resisting their attempts to get in, with a possible weapon clearly visible. They had no choice. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > So, 2 points for discussion: did the police here do anything wrong, IYO? And should we continue to allow law enforcement officers to inflict great pain and suffering on citizens? They did wrong by arresting him for disorderly conduct after they found out his condition. And for laughing at him when they found out he was deaf, if true. Yes, we should allow law enforcement to be able to inflict great pain and suffering on citizens because something that is what’s required and sometimes its much better than the alternative of a metal fragment into flesh > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > A follow-up for people who like the idea that police have tasers: is there anything that could sway you to think that police should not have tasers? This could be an incident, a series of incidents, new information about tasers, etc. Even a series of incidents wouldn’t change my mind. Like the disproportionate media coverage on school shootings, one incident, or a few, gets magnified into what is seemingly an epidemic. So no, a few incidents or a series wouldn’t change my mind. There would have to be hundreds of incidents over the course of a year to establish trend. Also, if evidence is discovered that tasers are almost as lethal as guns. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tasing-the-deaf-disabled/504598/59 "2009-07-30T18:21:04Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > I only read the short article you linked, so maybe I missed something. > > Our deaf and disabled was trespassing, in that the owner of the bathroom wanted him out and gone. He had been in the bathroom for one hour. He refused to answer to knocking. The officers forced the door (perhaps - this is conjecture - to find out if there was a medical emergency), and then had it slammed on them. > > At this point we have a problem. Someone has been asked to leave, and won’t leave. They are using force (blocking the door), to keep from leaving. They are no longer allowed to be there. > > What would you have the officer do in this situation? If this person was deaf, of course he won’t respond to knocking, or orders to open the door. He didn’t hear any of it. I will cut the police a break - they didn’t know this. However, we shouldn’t really blame the “perp” either. He didn’t hear anything. If I am on the toilet and someone shoves the door open, my first impulse would be to push the door shut too. If I don’t know you, can’t hear any “orders or identification” you are shouting, etc, I will push the door shut. It isn’t resisting, it isn’t a “crime”, it’s just what it is - someone trying to come in and me shutting the door. The more I think bout it, the more I think it is a “shit happens” incident. > [@Shodan](#): > > My take is that we are arguing from different assumptions. I believe it is acceptable to incur a certain level of risk to the suspect for no other reason than to compel compliance. Those on the other side don’t seem to agree. > > IOW, it seems on one side, the default for the police is to do nothing. On the other, to take action to force compliance. The problem with threads like this is that they are being argued after the fact, based on information that police don’t always have at the time, and there are always lots of anecdotes to drag in about Rodney King and Diallo and whoever. Agree. They didn’t have a clue that the person was deaf and didn’t hear them, they had no idea what was going on. For all they knew it COULD have been some heavily armed dope fiend. That’s why I lean more and more toward the “shit happens” explanation. No one is at fault, shit just happened. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tasing-the-deaf-disabled/504598/60 "2009-07-30T18:26:55Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > People not obeying the lawful commands of a police officer is hardly a one-in-a-million occurrence. How can he obey commands he cannot perceive? You are falsely equating “not obeying” with “disobeying”. > [@](#): > > And yet you are willing to take his word for it about everything. Actually, the police report and Mr. Love’s account do not differ greatly, as some of the stories note. > [@AL P-R](#): > > Love, whose family said his mental abilities are about that of a 10-year-old, wrote them a narrative of the incident as he recalled it. > > **The hand-scrawled, six-page note and the official police account of the confrontation are strikingly similar in their recitation of the chain of events**. (Bolding mine, to help you find the pertinent part. You’re welcome.) If I have given more weight to Mr. Love’s account, I have good reasons: the police have contradicted themselves: > [@abcnews.com](#): > > Police spokesman Christopher Levy said Tuesday store workers called officers complaining that a man had been in the bathroom for more than an hour with the door locked. Officers knocked on the door and identified themselves, but the person didn’t respond. > Officers used a tire iron to open the door, but the man pushed back to keep it shut. **Officers saw the umbrella and sprayed pepper spray through a crack trying to subdue the man, Levy said.** > [@AL P-R](#): > > Police were called to the store at 12:22 p.m. after someone reported that a man had been in the bathroom for more than an hour behind a locked door, said Cpl. Charles Bagsby, another police spokesman. > > When the officers arrived, they pounded on the door but got no answer, Bagsby said. They pounded again. No answer. > > Bagsby declined to say how many officers were involved. > > Love, speaking in sign language that was then translated by his family, said he was in the bathroom because he was sick to his stomach. > > “I wait and sit toilet,” Love’s note read. “I think about someone try break door. I hold door hard.” > > **At that point, Bagsby said, the officers saw movement from under the door, indicating that there was someone inside. They then shot pepper spray under the door**. So, they either pepper sprayed him after forcing open the door and seeing a potentially lethal parasol, or they pepper sprayed him after confirming he was in the bathroom. The police have contradicted themselves publicly, thus lessening any credence I give to their accounts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tasing-the-deaf-disabled/504598.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tasing-the-deaf-disabled/504598.md?page=4)