Tasing the deaf & disabled

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@YogSosoth

Considering that he was already in there for an hour, your assertion is that cops should wait at least 2 hours when they can’t get any information? I guess I have less tolerance of wasting their time than you do

I missed this in my answer to your post above, but I’ll ask again: are you in fact reading my posts? Because you have seemingly missed what I wrote in post #110 which was a direct reply to you.

@me

I don’t know how long an appropriate time to wait is, but I would say the window falls between “more than 30 seconds” and “less than an hour”.

And I am now laughing as I remind you of what you wrote:

@YogSosoth

Please refrain from making up shit.

[Bryan_Ekers]

I understand cops who like to take the time to consider all their options sometimes get parades in their honour.

[Magiver]

@NoJustice

Incorrect. You made factually incorrect claims; I, and others, posted refutations of these claims. If you decline to rebut, you are either conceding the point or are attempting to debate dishonestly.

This and similar statements are not debate. Most of it is so poorly written I can’t respond to it. I have no idea what you’re trying to say.

@NoJustice

See YogSosoth above. He has also already been refuted several times, but he rebuts with more factually incorrect claims instead of merely repeating his refuted opinion over and over. This is at least an argument, though an invalid one. You on the other hand have not posted an actual argument in a while (if ever). Merely repeating yourself over and over, while ignoring all refutation, is not an argument; it is invincible ignorance.

I have no interest in determining whether your inanity is the result of dishonesty or simple stupidity; the appropriate response is the same either way.

Since you cannot formulate any kind of argument other than insulting other posters I suggest this thread be shut down.

[NoJustice]

This and similar statements are not debate.

True.
golf clap
These statements are not debate, they are merely attempts to explain to you what debate is. Most people don’t need such things pointed out to them.

Most of it is so poorly written I can’t respond to it. I have no idea what you’re trying to say.

Then there is nothing more I, or anyone else, can do for you. I am truly sorry; you will apparently be forever trapped in your ignorance by your lack of basic reasoning skills.

Since you cannot formulate any kind of argument other than insulting other posters I suggest this thread be shut down.

I have formulated plenty of arguments, and will continue to do so as it is warranted. I understand you are unable to comprehend them… again I am sorry, but there is no need to shut this thread down. You could just keep your invincible ignorance to yourself, and leave the debate to those who are capable.

ETA:
If you have any more to say on what is or is not debate, I suggest you open a new thread to do so rather than continuing the hijack.

[Magiver]

@NoJustice

True.
gold clap
These statements are not debate, they are merely attempts to explain to you what debate is. Most people don’t need such things pointed out to them.Then there is nothing more I, or anyone else, can do for you. I am truly sorry; you will apparently be forever trapped in your ignorance by your lack of basic reasoning skills.I have formulated plenty of arguments, and will continue to do so as it is warranted. I understand you are unable to comprehend them… again I am sorry, but there is no need to shut this thread down. You could just keep your invincible ignorance to yourself, and leave the debate to those who are capable.

ETA:
If you have any more to say on what is or is not debate, I suggest you open a new thread to do so rather than continuing the hijack.

How old are you? seriously.

[tomndebb]

Knock it off, all of you.

There may still be room for debate on this topic, but the current rounds of “is too/is not” punctuated by insults from both sides is not making it.

If you have nothing of substance to add, then don’t post to this thread.

[ /Moderating ]

[Contrapuntal]

@Paul_in_Qatar

I have not clicked on the link. I’m guessing white cop/black deaf guy. I’m guessing the South.

Yeah. They looked through the door with their x-ray vision and decided to tase the deaf black guy.

Tarring an entire region with one brush is the epitome of bigotry. Are you this prejudiced about other things as well?

[YogSothoth]

@Cisco

I can’t really argue against something so ridiculous, but it did make me laugh. Thanks for that. I’m gonna go defend myself from possible threats now. Where’s my taser . . .

@Snowboarder_Bo

Look, the whole concept of “pre-emptive defense” is Orwellian. If I walk down the Las Vegas strip clubbing every other passerby within arms reach, would you accept my explanation that I was defending myself from possible harm or robbery from persons unknown? I mean, if they don’t intend to rob me or hurt me, why are they getting so close to me?

Both of these responses assume some totally non-sequitorial situation in which you imagine a cop attacking a guy on the streets because he looked like a bad guy.

As I’ve said time and time again, the circumstances surrounding actual situation called for the police to use force. I even listed it so that you people would be able to find it easier but I guess its to no avail. Still, the fact that the guy was in there for a long time, not responding to police, defying orders, and had a potential weapon gave the cops all the necessary justification to use pepper spray and a taser. Its neither Orwellian or ridiculous to say that the cops felt this unknown guy pushing up against the door and disobeying a simple command to get out might be up to something.

Flip the situation around. Would you guys have a similar response if Mr. Love thought some unknown people forcing their way into the bathroom was a threat and used the umbrella to attack them? I honestly want to know, would you two, in that case, think he was justified in using the umbrella to pummel whoever was on the other side (before he sees their uniforms)?

@Snowboarder_Bo

Actually, my thought before he pushed back against the door would be “Is there a corpse in there?”

After he prevented me from entering it would be “Whaaa??? What the hell is going on in there?” at which point I would have tried to find that out, not by pepper spraying, but by trying to establish communication again, in a different manner; i.e the badge/note/whatever under the door, speak in Espanol, whatever else I could think of.

If you want to think its all fun and games, fine. But as a cop, I would hope they’d be more alert and careful than think everyone who defies them means no harm.

@Snowboarder_Bo

Let me get this straight: you think that the correct action to take to an unresponsive person is to pepper spray them and tase them?

From the way you worded the question, its obvious you meant for “unresponsive” to mean “unconscious”.

Mr. was not unresponsive. The cops knocked and yelled, and there was no response. THEN and only THEN did they force open the door, and at that point, Mr. Love pushed back against them, ending his unresponsive state. At that point, the police decided to use pepper spray. It wasnt like the cops knocked, got no response, and took out the pepper spray. Did you miss the part where they forced open the door and had a shoving match against Love? They probably took out the taser after the pepper spray

@Snowboarder_Bo

How could you not know what I expect them to do when it’s all I’ve been writing about throughout this thread? Are you actually reading my posts? Hell, I just said it again right above that last quote box.

That was a rhetorical question. It should be read: “I don’t know how you can expect them to try your pointless other attempts when they would have produced no discernable information better than knocking and yelling. To wit, no windows or security cameras inside to gather more information. And I’ve already addressed the badge under the door thing.” Its like you expect that yelling louder after yelling and knocking had no effect would have somehow made sense. It would be a waste of time.

@Snowboarder_Bo

But thinking that an unresponsive person, who denies you entry to a room that any normal person would deny another person entry to while utilizing themselves, needs to be “taken down” is ridiculous. Utter insanity. Lunatic reasoning.

I mean, you (and others, to be fair) are still not acknowledging that this was a bathroom. Not a storeroom, not an office, but a room specifically built to offer a person privacy of a type that for the most part, in our culture, we find inviolate. For fuck’s sake, man, most men won’t even look at or talk to another man, even a friend, in a multi-user public restroom. Can’t you see that the context of the room matters to the behaviour exhibited? It’s just not normal to let another person into the bathroom while you are using it, not in our culture.

This explanation would be fine if it was a normal situation, but it isn’t. Any man at a urinal would surely respond to a police order. If they didnt want to run out with their dicks hanging out, they would at least shout that they were currently taking a piss and would be a minute.

Love did not respond and did not open the door after the police knocked and yelled. Keep in mind that he was already in there for quite a while. Should the police assume its normal when a guy’s unresponsive in a bathroom for 1 hr plus? Is this a normal situation like you’re describing? At best, he was incapacitated, which the cops found out he wasnt after he began pushing up against the door. What you fail to realize is that any concern for Love safety and possible unconscious state vanished as soon as he pushed up against the door.

This tells the cops a few things:

1. In the last hour, he could respond, he just didnt want to
2. He isnt in some kind of danger or unconscious state that he couldnt walk over and unlatch the door, he’s perfectly physically able
3. He’s trying to prevent the cops from coming in, which usually means a person’s doing something wrong

All of this negates your “but its the bathroom!” defense. Sure, maybe different cops would have assumed he’s deaf, but what are the odds? Maybe they would have assumed he was mentally challenged too and didnt know that someone forcing their way into the bathroom after over an hour probably doesnt want to harm him. But seriously, you cant expect those kind of odds

@Snowboarder_Bo

Now you’re offering ridiculous scenarios, but I’ll tackle them.

Its hardly more ridiculous to assume blindness than deaf AND mental disability. You’re right, the cane would have given it away, but its no more crazy to say he might have been deaf, mentally disabled, AND extremely near-sighted (or far-sighting, whichever) as well. Again, the point that you keep ignoring is that the cops dont know so they have to assume the worse after he started denying them entry

@Snowboarder_Bo

Again, at some point I agree that the police would have to gain entry in order to fully ascertain what was going on with this guy who won’t come out of the bathroom. I never NEVER have made any statements that the police should just have infinite patience and just let the guy be if he doesn’t want to come out. NEVER. NEVER. I never came up with ludicrous examples for the police to keep trying things.

No, not infinite patience, just more than they’re expected to have. Hour+ in the bathroom = no problems according to you. If he doesnt respond, give him an hour more while the police sit around.

@Snowboarder_Bo

I don’t think they should have immediately resorted to violent take down procedures either, like pepper spray and tasers, since there was no threat, only the same type of resistance that you or I or anyone else would have offered to an unknown person trying to enter the most private room in our culture, a room designed for one, and only one, person to use at a time.

How do you know there was no threat? If you were one of the officers, and some guy ignored your orders after being the bathroom for an hour, then you force the door open and suddenly he’s pushing up against the door with an object that can be used as a weapon, you would feel that there is absolutely no threat?

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@YogSosoth

Both of these responses assume some totally non-sequitorial situation in which you imagine a cop attacking a guy on the streets because he looked like a bad guy.

As I’ve said time and time again, the circumstances surrounding actual situation called for the police to use force. I even listed it so that you people would be able to find it easier but I guess its to no avail. Still, the fact that the guy was in there for a long time, not responding to police, defying orders, and had a potential weapon gave the cops all the necessary justification to use pepper spray and a taser. Its neither Orwellian or ridiculous to say that the cops felt this unknown guy pushing up against the door and disobeying a simple command to get out might be up to something.

Yes, you’ve made these arguments before, and the repetition isn’t making them any more cogent; they are as ridiculous now as they were earlier in this thread.

@YogSosoth

Flip the situation around. Would you guys have a similar response if Mr. Love thought some unknown people forcing their way into the bathroom was a threat and used the umbrella to attack them? I honestly want to know, would you two, in that case, think he was justified in using the umbrella to pummel whoever was on the other side (before he sees their uniforms)?

There is NO equivocation between response to a person trying to get to you, and a response to a person not trying to get to you. According to you, the fact that Mr. Love was NOT trying to get out of the bathroom and get at the police is the same as Mr. Love trying to get out of the bathroom and get get at the police. That’s asinine.

@YogSosoth

If you want to think its all fun and games, fine. But as a cop, I would hope they’d be more alert and careful than think everyone who defies them means no harm.

LOL

This totally mischaracterizes everything that you quoted. Totally. Why, it’s (again) as if you didn’t bother to read what I wrote.

From the way you worded the question, its obvious you meant for “unresponsive” to mean “unconscious”.

No, I didn’t mean that. What I meant was “unresponsive”, as in not responding.

@YogSosoth

Mr. was not unresponsive. The cops knocked and yelled, and there was no response.

The fact that you thought it would be a good idea to post those 2 sentences back to back in making your argument tells me that it’s time to say going to be time to say good-bye soon, lest I inadvertently say things that aren’t permissible in GD. It’s apparent now that no amount of logic, reasonableness or facts will affect your judgement, such as it is (but I’ll finish responding to your post first, eh).

@YogSosoth

THEN and only THEN did they force open the door, and at that point, Mr. Love pushed back against them, ending his unresponsive state. At that point, the police decided to use pepper spray.

Wrong again. PLEASE go and read the news stories and take you own advice and stop making shit up.

@AL P-R

When the officers arrived, they pounded on the door but got no answer, Bagsby said. They pounded again. No answer.

Bagsby declined to say how many officers were involved.

Love, speaking in sign language that was then translated by his family, said he was in the bathroom because he was sick to his stomach.

“I wait and sit toilet,” Love’s note read. “I think about someone try break door. I hold door hard.”

At that point, Bagsby said, the officers saw movement from under the door, indicating that there was someone inside. They then shot pepper spray under the door.

BEFORE the tire iron, Yog. BEFORE.

@YogSosoth

It wasnt like the cops knocked, got no response, and took out the pepper spray.

Yes, it was exactly like that, as I’ve just shown.

@YogSosoth

Did you miss the part where they forced open the door and had a shoving match against Love? They probably took out the taser after the pepper spray

Did you say “probably”? Do you know or are you, as you seem to indicate, guessing? And why in the world would you think it was a good idea to argue about what you think might have, maybe, possibly occurred? At least stick to the… oh, never mind.
Your arguments have all been joyously free of facts or any relation to reality thus far, you might as well keep that position.

@YogSosoth

That was a rhetorical question. It should be read: “I don’t know how you can expect them to try your pointless other attempts when they would have produced no discernable information better than knocking and yelling. To wit, no windows or security cameras inside to gather more information. And I’ve already addressed the badge under the door thing.” Its like you expect that yelling louder after yelling and knocking had no effect would have somehow made sense. It would be a waste of time.

So asking “does anyone know this guy? Ever seen him in the store before?” would have yielded no information? It is your stance that there is NO more information that could have been gleaned, thru any means whatsoever? Do I have that correct? Because that’s ridiculous. Nonsensical. Cannot be supported by reality.

This explanation would be fine if it was a normal situation, but it isn’t. Any man at a urinal would surely respond to a police order. If they didnt want to run out with their dicks hanging out, they would at least shout that they were currently taking a piss and would be a minute.

Love did not respond and did not open the door after the police knocked and yelled. Keep in mind that he was already in there for quite a while. Should the police assume its normal when a guy’s unresponsive in a bathroom for 1 hr plus? Is this a normal situation like you’re describing? At best, he was incapacitated, which the cops found out he wasnt after he began pushing up against the door. What you fail to realize is that any concern for Love safety and possible unconscious state vanished as soon as he pushed up against the door.

This tells the cops a few things:

1. In the last hour, he could respond, he just didnt want to
2. He isnt in some kind of danger or unconscious state that he couldnt walk over and unlatch the door, he’s perfectly physically able
3. He’s trying to prevent the cops from coming in, which usually means a person’s doing something wrong

All of this negates your “but its the bathroom!” defense. Sure, maybe different cops would have assumed he’s deaf, but what are the odds? Maybe they would have assumed he was mentally challenged too and didnt know that someone forcing their way into the bathroom after over an hour probably doesnt want to harm him. But seriously, you cant expect those kind of odds
[/quote]

Its hardly more ridiculous to assume blindness than deaf AND mental disability. You’re right, the cane would have given it away, but its no more crazy to say he might have been deaf, mentally disabled, AND extremely near-sighted (or far-sighting, whichever) as well. Again, the point that you keep ignoring is that the cops dont know so they have to assume the worse after he started denying them entry

No, not infinite patience, just more than they’re expected to have. Hour+ in the bathroom = no problems according to you.
[/quote]

Where did I say it was no problem? I DIDN’T. You have just (again) made shit up.

If he doesnt respond, give him an hour more while the police sit around.

Still making shit up. You got nothing, and I’ll be done dealing with you soon, thank Bob.

@YogSosoth

How do you know there was no threat? If you were one of the officers, and some guy ignored your orders after being the bathroom for an hour, then you force the door open and suddenly he’s pushing up against the door with an object that can be used as a weapon, you would feel that there is absolutely no threat?

Cite that he was pushing up against the door with an object that can be used as a weapon? Cite that he even had it in his hand? Cite? CITE?

If you’re going to argue without facts, without paying attention to anything anyone else has written, and without a shred of credibility, please go do it somewhere else. It’s depressing to think of the school system that educated you in this manner of debate, and tiring to constantly have to deflect the bullshit you throw around.

One more time, tho, because it’s really priceless:

@YogSosoth

Mr. was not unresponsive. The cops knocked and yelled, and there was no response.

Comedy GOLD that is.

[tomndebb]

At the request of the OP, among others, and before I have to start handing out Warnings, this trainwreck is done.

[ /Modding ]