# Tax and Spend Liberals: An unfair label? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 16, 2008, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-and-spend-liberals-an-unfair-label/463900 "2008-09-16T21:31:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-and-spend-liberals-an-unfair-label/463900/21 "2008-09-17T18:18:27Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Tax and spend liberals seems like a fair label, since liberals are proposing to spend money on various things and that money must come from taxes eventually. I have always thought that being a liberal must save alot of time during policy debates because “Raise taxes on the top X% and throw money at the problem” solves every problem. Whereas alternatively, conservatives do not propose to spend money on various things, and therefore don’t need any money? Huh? Have you even read the FACTS presented earlier in this thread, that say that Democrats are more fiscally responsible? This goes to my premise that short, simple soundbites “TAX and SPEND!!” “LIBERAL MEDIA”, if they are repeated often enough, and loud enough, will become the truth. It really matters not what those rude and elitist so called “facts” have to say about it. Republicans are masters at creating their own reality. Ignore this at your peril. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-and-spend-liberals-an-unfair-label/463900/22 "2008-09-17T18:27:41Z")
Conservatives would like to cut taxes and cut spending. Liberals would like to raise taxes and raise spending. Voters like low taxes and high spending. When politicians are elected they enact the popular parts of their agendas first. Given these facts the equilibrium is that we have high deficits and a large debt even though neither conservatives nor liberals prefer this outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-and-spend-liberals-an-unfair-label/463900/23 "2008-09-17T18:34:56Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Conservatives would like to cut taxes and cut spending. > Liberals would like to raise taxes and raise spending. Whereas when elected: Liberals raise taxes and keep spending in line with revenue, leading to lower deficits or even a small surplus. Conservatives cut taxes, and raise spending, leading to larger deficits that add to the total debt that must be paid off by our children. DINE AND DASH CONSERVATIVES! DINE AND DASH CONSERVATIVES! DINE AND DASH CONSERVATIVES! (doing my part to create my own reality with a snappy soundbite) ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-and-spend-liberals-an-unfair-label/463900/24 "2008-09-17T18:56:34Z")
Republicans should be called Borrow and Spend, then. Republicans are no more fiscally conservative than democrats. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-and-spend-liberals-an-unfair-label/463900/25 "2008-09-17T19:34:57Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Conservatives would like to cut taxes and cut spending. > Liberals would like to raise taxes and raise spending. > Voters like low taxes and high spending. > When politicians are elected they enact the popular parts of their agendas first. > Given these facts the equilibrium is that we have high deficits and a large debt even though neither conservatives nor liberals prefer this outcome. This should read: Conservatives like to promise to cut taxes, then borrow money, and never cut spending. Liberals raise the money first, then spend it. Voters like handouts, but don’t like to pay for it. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-and-spend-liberals-an-unfair-label/463900/26 "2008-09-17T19:42:09Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > One would hope that a university professor such as one quoted would be familiar with the concept of correlation does not mean causation, and the pitfalls of small sample sizes. Small sample size? It is as big as it can be going back to WWII (which I would equate with the beginning of our modern economy…not sure relevant comparisons can be made between pre/post WWII when it comes to economic policies). I wish I could find the cite but Bartels does actually address your issue with correlation. As noted in my original NY Times link in the OP: _“Most economists will tell you that Federal Reserve policy and oil prices, to name just two influences, are far more powerful than fiscal policy. Furthermore, as those mutual fund prospectuses constantly warn us, past results are no guarantee of future performance. But statistical regularities, like facts, are stubborn things. You bet against them at your peril.”_ Also there is this: > [@](#): > > After allowing for a one year time lag between assuming office and the effects of policies, and accounting for several economic events that could have caused such a development, such as oil prices and labor force participation, Bartel finds that the correlation with a Democratic presidency and higher income growth remains significant. He concludes that correlation between higher and more equally distributed income growth and the incumbancy of Democratic presidents is likely not a mere repeated coincidence. Bartels conducts the same calculations for pre-tax for two periods: 1948-2005 and 1980-2005, and post-tax incomes for the period from 1980-2005, coming to the same conclusions. > > SOURCE: [Political parties in the United States - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_parties_in_the_United_States#Economic_performance) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-and-spend-liberals-an-unfair-label/463900/27 "2008-09-17T20:45:25Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I just want to note that , having taxed, no government ever seems to do anything but spend – they never invest. And they seem determined to spend whether taxing is involved or not. What do you mean by invest? If you mean investing in industry, I hope not - though we seem to be doing a lot more of it than we should be. But as far as investing for the future, the interstate highway system is an excellent example of a good investment, as is funding of NSF and NIH. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-and-spend-liberals-an-unfair-label/463900/28 "2008-09-17T20:58:09Z")
Cartoon I got in my email the other day: [![Imgur](https://live.staticflickr.com/3121/2739434687_a4d190dcbf_z.jpg "Fiscal Conservatives Vs A Tax and Spend Liberal") ](https://www.flickr.com/photos/cayobo/2739434687/) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-and-spend-liberals-an-unfair-label/463900/29 "2008-09-17T20:58:23Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I thought that after “Spend and Spend” Dubya, “Tax and Spend” was a _compliment_ now. Presidents don’t make budgets, they can only reject them. Congress is charged with making budgets and currently both houses are run by Democrats. The only thing the President can do is reject a budget and shut down the country. The last time this was done was by President Clinton against a Republican Congress but it wasn’t because the budget was too high, it was because he wanted more added to it. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-and-spend-liberals-an-unfair-label/463900/30 "2008-09-17T21:08:49Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Presidents don’t make budgets, they can only reject them. Congress is charged with making budgets and currently both houses are run by Democrats. The only thing the President can do is reject a budget and shut down the country. The last time this was done was by President Clinton against a Republican Congress but it wasn’t because the budget was too high, it was because he wanted more added to it. Fine. How does that change the distinct trends shown in the OP that the country prospers more under democrats than republican Presidents? There is another thread discussing how much actual power the President has in this regard so I’d say the President wields some real pull in this regard. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-and-spend-liberals-an-unfair-label/463900/31 "2008-09-17T21:33:33Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Whereas when elected: > > Liberals raise taxes and keep spending in line with revenue, leading to lower deficits or even a small surplus. > Conservatives cut taxes, and raise spending, leading to larger deficits that add to the total debt that must be paid off by our children. > > DINE AND DASH CONSERVATIVES! > > DINE AND DASH CONSERVATIVES! > > DINE AND DASH CONSERVATIVES! > > (doing my part to create my own reality with a snappy soundbite) Obama should say: “‘Tax and spend’ is better than ‘borrow and binge’.” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-and-spend-liberals-an-unfair-label/463900/32 "2008-09-17T21:35:49Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Fine. How does that change the distinct trends shown in the OP that the country prospers more under democrats than republican Presidents? There is another thread discussing how much actual power the President has in this regard so I’d say the President wields some real pull in this regard. Based on the fact that Congress creates the budget, makes fiduciary laws and adjusts the tax rates I would say the President has little to do with it. When you watch the presidential candidates talk about their policies you should stop and consider what power they actually have to do this. Both candidates talk about taking on “corporate greed” and other focus group soundbite bullshit. They have no such power. They can talk a good game but ultimately all they can do is submit their ideas to Congress. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-and-spend-liberals-an-unfair-label/463900/33 "2008-09-17T21:44:19Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Based on the fact that Congress creates the budget, makes fiduciary laws and adjusts the tax rates I would say the President has little to do with it. > > When you watch the presidential candidates talk about their policies you should stop and consider what power they actually have to do this. Both candidates talk about taking on “corporate greed” and other focus group soundbite bullshit. They have no such power. They can talk a good game but ultimately all they can do is submit their ideas to Congress. And they can veto whatever budget Congress sends to them. The President is in no way a toothless figurehead. He leads his party which is a powerful lever to pull in getting those in Congress on his “side” to do what he wants. If that party is in power in Congress that is a particularly powerful lever to pull. Also the power of the Bully Pulpit. And again you are ignoring that the book cited in the OP details a very distinct trend in how the economy prospers under democratic versus republican presidents. Just mere chance in your view? A weird statistical hiccup that means nothing? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-and-spend-liberals-an-unfair-label/463900/34 "2008-09-17T22:38:30Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Presidents don’t make budgets, they can only reject them. Congress is charged with making budgets and currently both houses are run by Democrats. The only thing the President can do is reject a budget and shut down the country. The last time this was done was by President Clinton against a Republican Congress but it wasn’t because the budget was too high, it was because he wanted more added to it. So in your view of reality Congress constructs budgets from scratch? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-and-spend-liberals-an-unfair-label/463900/35 "2008-09-18T06:11:32Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > So in your view of reality Congress constructs budgets from scratch? In my view of reality? Congress makes the budget. That’s reality. . ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-and-spend-liberals-an-unfair-label/463900/36 "2008-09-18T07:13:15Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > In my view of reality? Congress makes the budget. That’s reality. . Try reading [this.](http://www.cbpp.org/3-7-03bud.htm) > [@](#): > > Step One: The President’s Budget Request > > On or before the first Monday in February, the President submits to Congress a detailed budget request for the coming federal fiscal year, which begins on October 1. This budget request, developed by the President’s Office of Management and Budget (OMB), plays three important roles. First, it tells Congress what the President believes overall federal fiscal policy should be, as established by three main components: (1) how much money the federal government should spend on public purposes; (2) how much it should take in as tax revenues; and (3) how much of a deficit (or surplus) the federal government should run, which is simply the difference between (1) and (2). > > Second, the budget request lays out the President’s relative priorities for federal programs — how much he believes should be spent on defense, agriculture, education, health, and so on. The President’s budget is very specific, and recommends funding levels for individual federal programs or small groups of programs called “budget accounts.” The budget typically sketches out fiscal policy and budget priorities not only for the coming year but for the next five years or more. It is also accompanied by historical tables that set out past budget figures. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2008, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-and-spend-liberals-an-unfair-label/463900/37 "2008-09-19T03:49:23Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Try reading [this.](http://www.cbpp.org/3-7-03bud.htm) And? Your point? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2008, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-and-spend-liberals-an-unfair-label/463900/38 "2008-09-19T03:53:52Z")
better then “incompatently and selfishly run the country into a flaming wreck republicans” I wish it was hyperbole but republican greedy incompetence made it truth heck just republican is insult enough. thank bush and the incompetent idiots you put in congress for that ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2008, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-and-spend-liberals-an-unfair-label/463900/39 "2008-09-19T08:03:51Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Err…that’s what I am trying to do here. Sorry for the snark. I don’t want my point to be lost. Democratic presidencies _consistently_ lead to lower budget deficits. Clinton exhibited superior _spending constraint_. I want to hammer that point home, because it seems at odds with conventional wisdom, the graphs in my link notwithstanding. > [@](#): > > I was also buying into the meme that a Democrat never saw a regulation they did not like and business needs to be free as much a possible of such things. I work in the Chicago Board of Trade and the traders there (by and large) are convinced Obama will ruin them (not helped by blaming oil speculation as the cause of high oil prices). Of course a lack of oversight sees us in the current subprime debacle yet Reps seems able to hold on to the notion that regulation = bad. Good regulation is a prerequisite for efficient financial markets. Can McCain do it right? Just today he called for the firing of the head of the SEC, because of Cox dropped the freaking uptick rule. Never mind that when stocks are quoted to the penny, that it sort of loses a lot of its force. Never mind that _the President can’t fire the head of the SEC anyway_. Conservatism needs to remake itself: it needs to eschew fantasy and come to terms with science and factual observation, as opposed to wishful thinking. McCain’s fan base in the press is getting increasingly upset with his shoot-from-the-hip / facts-be-damned style. But it is the business conservative who needs to do some seriously thinking about What Has Happened. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-and-spend-liberals-an-unfair-label/463900/40 "2008-09-20T00:20:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And? Your point? If you can’t see it directly contradicts your contention, I give up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-and-spend-liberals-an-unfair-label/463900.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-and-spend-liberals-an-unfair-label/463900.md?page=3)