# Tax just the rich more? Maybe not. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 16, 2013, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-just-the-rich-more-maybe-not/655878 "2013-04-16T21:18:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-just-the-rich-more-maybe-not/655878/61 "2013-04-22T22:00:55Z")
It is good for the economy. It’s not good for billionaires’ bottom lines, but they are not the whole economy. ---
**Author:** ![pjnlsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e8c25b/32.png) [@pjnlsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjnlsn)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-just-the-rich-more-maybe-not/655878/62 "2013-04-22T22:20:54Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Emphasis added. Can you show us how the math works out? > > Keep in mind that our economy is about $16T/year. In order to make a measurable difference in the economy, let’s assume that we need inject at least 0.25% of the total into it. I’m just using that as a rule of thumb, but if you have a better one, that’s OK as long as you explain why it should be used. > > n.b.: I would not at all oppose your plan, provided we were doing it in order to help people out. Claiming we are doing it because it’s good for the economy is B.S. Ultimately, it’s just what the people would want. But in any case, while the economy as a whole is suffering, there is also the long term trend of escalating upwards wealth transfer, and a similar pattern among incomes. They’re different problems, although one has an indirect (but still debilitating) impact on the economy. A market in which more people are participating in a significant way is a healthier market, or the total value of the beneficial exchange of goods, services and capital is more stable or resilient e.g. an economy which is healthier. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-just-the-rich-more-maybe-not/655878/63 "2013-04-23T05:07:03Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Ever hear of transfer payments? Tax the extremely high earners, then turn that money around and pay it to the below-average earners as a negative income tax. Very little stays in D.C. _We already do this._ We can increase the rate, and that money becomes “stimulus spending.” A negative income tax isn’t a horrible idea but in the real world the government prefers to distribute the money to constituencies that are important to the next election, or political contributors. the poor just aren’t a high priority for politicians. Heck, modern Democrats don’t even talk about poverty anymore, it’s just “middle class, middle class, middle class”. If anything they’d just take the extra revenue and use it to make middle class families more comfortable. Right now we have a tax system where a single worker making minimum wage has income tax liability, while a married worker with kids, a mortgage, and college expenses and making 5 times as much pays nothing. I understand that the family man has more expenses, but he’s still much better off than the single worker and can much more easily afford to pay taxes. Let’s say the government didn’t have to worry about the deficit but had $100 billion per year more to play with. What would be the one thing they would probably all agree on? More middle class tax breaks! the single worker making minimum wage would be SOL. ---
**Author:** ![stui\_magpie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stui_magpie/32/11010_2.png) [@stui\_magpie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stui_magpie)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-just-the-rich-more-maybe-not/655878/64 "2013-04-23T06:13:58Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > Which is why I’ll likely always earn a lot more than you 😃 > > Do those charts comparing taxes in various countries also include state and property taxes? Speaking as an Australian, no they don’t. It’s very difficult to get a real comparison. Here we have income tax which is collected federally. Individuals don’t pay much in the way of state taxes. Local councils charge rates on property which I think is similar to your property taxes, we also pay a tax when buying a house but the main one is the income tax. That works on a sliding scale $0 to $18,200 pa - no tax $18201 to $37,000 -19% $37,001 to $80,000 -32.5% $80,001 to $180,000 - 37% Over $180,001 - 45%. So the top rate here only applies if you’re earning over $180,000 pa and only on that money over that point. On the rest you pay between the brackets. We also have a broadbased consumption tax of 10% on pretty much everything except fresh food and, from what I understand, a much higher welfare safety net than the USA. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-just-the-rich-more-maybe-not/655878/65 "2013-04-23T06:48:28Z")
It’s pretty obvious from your info that the middle class has a higher tax burden, which is necessary to support a generous welfare state. there is no conceivable scenario where such a thing can be supported primarily by taxing rich people. A tax system geared towards taxing mainly the rich is only possible if you have a small government. ---
**Author:** ![anukulardecider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/94ad74/32.png) [@anukulardecider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anukulardecider)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-just-the-rich-more-maybe-not/655878/66 "2013-04-23T09:02:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What does it mean to “die of poverty”? Poverty certainly contributes to people dying younger. If a person doesn’t have health insurance, that person may not get treatment until it’s too late. As a general rule, people without health insurance, put off going to the emergency room because they can’t pay for it. Also, the emergency room does not treat everything. If a person lives in a poverty stricken neighborhood, chances of that person getting killed are much higher. Not having proper nutrition certainly can lead to illness and even death. People die every year from heat strokes, mostly low income seniors without air conditioning. So yes, poverty does kill. ---
**Author:** ![anukulardecider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/94ad74/32.png) [@anukulardecider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anukulardecider)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-just-the-rich-more-maybe-not/655878/67 "2013-04-23T09:44:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > How many people die in the US each year because the safety net we have is not adequate in those areas? I would imagine quite a few. That’s what happens when you can’t afford healthy food or adequate health care. And if it weren’t for the safety net programs, I’m sure there would be more deaths and higher crime rates. There’s also a growing problem with poverty and obesity. People who can’t afford groceries, will spend less money for dinner, by purchasing from the dollar menu at fast food restaurants. So, poverty causes stress, obesity, a lack of nutrients for the body to function properly, which leads to heart disease, cancer, and other illnesses, leading to death without health care. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-just-the-rich-more-maybe-not/655878/68 "2013-04-23T10:01:49Z")
> [@anukulardecider](#): > > Poverty certainly contributes to people dying younger. If a person doesn’t have health insurance, that person may not get treatment until it’s too late. As a general rule, people without health insurance, put off going to the emergency room because they can’t pay for it. Also, the emergency room does not treat everything. If a person lives in a poverty stricken neighborhood, chances of that person getting killed are much higher. Not having proper nutrition certainly can lead to illness and even death. People die every year from heat strokes, mostly low income seniors without air conditioning. So yes, poverty does kill. Doesn’t universal health care also result in delays in treatment due to longer wait times? Or is that just collateral damage in the war for social justice? Interesting also that you mentioned seniors without air conditioning. Was there not a heat wave in France that killed 10,000 elderly people? Was this not because it was vacation season in France and there was insufficient staff to look after these folks? How much progress has an egalitarian nation like France really made when 10,000 can die due to lack of air conditioning? I’ve never heard of 10,000 people dying in the US from one heat wave. True, poverty kills, but government policies to alleviate it also have unintended consequences. Or misery is meted out more fairly, thus somehow relieving the consciences of the activist class. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-just-the-rich-more-maybe-not/655878/69 "2013-04-23T10:07:14Z")
Last major heat wave in the US: 74 deaths > **[U.S. News: Latest Breaking Stories, Video, and Photos on American Politics,...](https://www.nbcnews.com/us-news?lite)** > > Get the latest news headlines and top stories from NBCNews.com. Find videos and news articles on the latest stories in the US. Death toll in Europe in 2003 heat wave: 70,000. Worst US heat wave ever: 5-10,000 deaths [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadliest\_heat\_wave#Deadliest\_heat\_waves](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadliest_heat_wave#Deadliest_heat_waves) Why does our system handle this better? Wouldn’t our lack of universal health care and greater poverty make us LESS prepared to handle situations like this? ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-just-the-rich-more-maybe-not/655878/70 "2013-04-23T10:40:29Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Last major heat wave in the US: 74 deaths > > [U.S. News: Latest Breaking Stories, Video, and Photos on American Politics, Economy, and Society | NBC News](http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/07/08/12624445-us-heat-wave-eases-but-death-toll-rises?lite) > > Death toll in Europe in 2003 heat wave: 70,000. > > Worst US heat wave ever: 5-10,000 deaths > > [List of natural disasters by death toll - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadliest_heat_wave#Deadliest_heat_waves) > > Why does our system handle this better? Wouldn’t our lack of universal health care and greater poverty make us LESS prepared to handle situations like this? There is more air conditioning in the US because hot weather in summer is the norm. It’s as simple as that. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-just-the-rich-more-maybe-not/655878/71 "2013-04-23T10:50:25Z")
Northern Europe isn’t normally hot, but southern Europe gets plenty hot enough. The French just don’t buy air conditioners. That much lower amount of disposable income they have might have something to do with it. Social justice don’t come cheap. > **[Welcome brightonyourhealth.com - BlueHost.com](http://brightonyourhealth.com/european-culture-and-health/differences-between-france-and-america-air-conditioning)** > > Bluehost - Top rated web hosting provider - Free 1 click installs For blogs, shopping carts, and more. Get a free domain name, real NON-outsourced 24/7 support, and superior speed. web hosting provider php hosting cheap web hosting, Web hosting,... On a potential hot summer day in Pau, we open the windows at 7 AM, and then at 9 AM everything closes, including the shutters and we put the fans out to keep cool. It really doesn’t feel THAT hot in the house, but yes, you do perspire. Even the businesses and government offices do the same, not many buildings have air conditioning; especially if the buildings is old (our house is at least 100 years old)\*\* plus electricity just costs too much to air condition a house.\*\* I guess air conditioning is just part of our American excess. Even poor people have it, mostly. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-just-the-rich-more-maybe-not/655878/72 "2013-04-23T10:56:10Z")
Of course, poor is a relative term. An average Frenchman would be pretty poor here in the US: > **[Median income](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income)** > > The median income is the income amount that divides a population into two equal groups, half having an income above that amount, and half having an income below that amount. It may differ from the mean (or average) income. Both of these are ways of understanding income distribution. > Median income can be calculated by household income, by personal income, or for specific demographic groups. > The following table represents data from OECD's "median disposable income per person" metric; disposable i... American median household income- $31,111 French median household income- $19,615 Now THAT’s what you call wealth disparity! ---
**Author:** ![anukulardecider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/94ad74/32.png) [@anukulardecider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anukulardecider)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-just-the-rich-more-maybe-not/655878/73 "2013-04-23T12:42:28Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Doesn’t universal health care also result in delays in treatment due to longer wait times? Or is that just collateral damage in the war for social justice? > > Interesting also that you mentioned seniors without air conditioning. Was there not a heat wave in France that killed 10,000 elderly people? Was this not because it was vacation season in France and there was insufficient staff to look after these folks? How much progress has an egalitarian nation like France really made when 10,000 can die due to lack of air conditioning? I’ve never heard of 10,000 people dying in the US from one heat wave. > > True, poverty kills, but government policies to alleviate it also have unintended consequences. Or misery is meted out more fairly, thus somehow relieving the consciences of the activist class. I’m sure universal health can result in delays, but I think it also depends on the seriousness of your condition, according to my Canadian friend. Maybe you could be a little more specific. I’ve never lived in a country that offers universal health, so I only know what I read and hear. I’m pretty sure all other countries with universal health, still outrank the US. However, I think I’d prefer the single-payer option, due to our for profit health system. We certainly pay twice as much as most other countries, but get less, with millions still without any healthcare. Surely we can do better. We’re # 1, right? (cough, cough) That European heatwave was the hottest on record since the 1500’s. Most of their homes had no air conditioning, due to the usual mild summers. Since those kind of high temperatures hadn’t happened in hundreds of years, I don’t know how you can blame the Government or their health care system. They had no way of knowing. When approx. 750 died in the Chicago heat wave, of 1995, it was mostly low income people people who had no air conditioner or could not afford to turn it on. And these people were afraid to open the windows because of the crime. Saying the healthcare system doesn’t work in France because of that bizarre natural disaster is a cop-out. I’m sure they are more prepared for a heatwave now. I’m not sure of what “unintended consequences” from the Govt. trying to alleviate poverty you are talking about. It seems to me that instead of helping the low income and elderly in this country, our Government is more concerned with tax cuts favoring the wealthy, while cutting many needed benefits for the poor. That’s not meted out very fairly. We have witnessed our financial institutions change the way they do business, including financial manipulation which has increased the concentration of wealth in the hands of the financial sector. This concentration of wealth has shifted the political power to the very wealthy, which is why there is such a gap between public policy and public will. No, our Government is not trying to alleviate poverty. they are trying to alleviate income equality. And they’ve done a fine job. We’re almost back to the 1920’s. ---
**Author:** ![anukulardecider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/94ad74/32.png) [@anukulardecider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anukulardecider)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-just-the-rich-more-maybe-not/655878/74 "2013-04-23T12:57:41Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Last major heat wave in the US: 74 deaths > > [U.S. News: Latest Breaking Stories, Video, and Photos on American Politics, Economy, and Society | NBC News](http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/07/08/12624445-us-heat-wave-eases-but-death-toll-rises?lite) > > Death toll in Europe in 2003 heat wave: 70,000. > > Worst US heat wave ever: 5-10,000 deaths > > [List of natural disasters by death toll - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadliest_heat_wave#Deadliest_heat_waves) > > Why does our system handle this better? Wouldn’t our lack of universal health care and greater poverty make us LESS prepared to handle situations like this? Probably the same reason Oklahoma handles tornadoes better than Maine. ---
**Author:** ![anukulardecider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/94ad74/32.png) [@anukulardecider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anukulardecider)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-just-the-rich-more-maybe-not/655878/75 "2013-04-23T13:24:35Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Northern Europe isn’t normally hot, but southern Europe gets plenty hot enough. The French just don’t buy air conditioners. That much lower amount of disposable income they have might have something to do with it. Social justice don’t come cheap. > > [Welcome brightonyourhealth.com - BlueHost.com](http://brightonyourhealth.com/european-culture-and-health/differences-between-france-and-america-air-conditioning) > > On a potential hot summer day in Pau, we open the windows at 7 AM, and then at 9 AM everything closes, including the shutters and we put the fans out to keep cool. It really doesn’t feel THAT hot in the house, but yes, you do perspire. Even the businesses and government offices do the same, not many buildings have air conditioning; especially if the buildings is old (our house is at least 100 years old)\*\* plus electricity just costs too much to air condition a house.\*\* > > I guess air conditioning is just part of our American excess. Even poor people have it, mostly. Except for the poor black elderly folks in Chicago. The majority of the victims were poor and black. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-just-the-rich-more-maybe-not/655878/76 "2013-04-23T14:15:16Z")
> [@anukulardecider](#): > > I’m sure universal health can result in delays, but I think it also depends on the seriousness of your condition, according to my Canadian friend. Maybe you could be a little more specific. I’ve never lived in a country that offers universal health, so I only know what I read and hear. I’m pretty sure all other countries with universal health, still outrank the US. However, I think I’d prefer the single-payer option, due to our for profit health system. We certainly pay twice as much as most other countries, but get less, with millions still without any healthcare. Surely we can do better. We’re # 1, right? (cough, cough) They all get overall better results than the US in most metrics, with the exception of cancer survival rates, which has a lot to do with early diagnosis. Emergency cases in UHC countries get seen quickly, but non-emergencies have to wait(depending on the system and its resources) and non-emergencies can become emergencies if you wait long enough. > [@](#): > > That European heatwave was the hottest on record since the 1500’s. Most of their homes had no air conditioning, due to the usual mild summers. Since those kind of high temperatures hadn’t happened in hundreds of years, I don’t know how you can blame the Government or their health care system. They had no way of knowing. When approx. 750 died in the Chicago heat wave, of 1995, it was mostly low income people people who had no air conditioner or could not afford to turn it on. And these people were afraid to open the windows because of the crime. Saying the healthcare system doesn’t work in France because of that bizarre natural disaster is a cop-out. I’m sure they are more prepared for a heatwave now. Well, I didn’t mean to say anything bad about the health care system, France’s is widely regarded as the best in the world. I was more referring to the income difference which makes air conditioning less attractive, even in France’s South, where it gets comparably hot to the middle US. Average high in Marseille is 86 in July, which means a lot of days in the 90s, which can be a big problem for elderly people even absent a major heat wave. The other problem was vacation time. Summer is vacation season so there may have been inadequate medical resources to care for elderly folks. Also, many were abandoned at home by their families, something not unheard of here, but not something you’d see done en masse. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure of what “unintended consequences” from the Govt. trying to alleviate poverty you are talking about. It seems to me that instead of helping the low income and elderly in this country, our Government is more concerned with tax cuts favoring the wealthy, while cutting many needed benefits for the poor. That’s not meted out very fairly. We have witnessed our financial institutions change the way they do business, including financial manipulation which has increased the concentration of wealth in the hands of the financial sector. This concentration of wealth has shifted the political power to the very wealthy, which is why there is such a gap between public policy and public will. No, our Government is not trying to alleviate poverty. they are trying to alleviate income equality. And they’ve done a fine job. We’re almost back to the 1920’s. The unintended consequences of fighting poverty are primarily lack of initiative. A recent article in the NY Times: [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/21/world/europe/danes-rethink-a-welfare-state-ample-to-a-fault.html?pagewanted=all&\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/21/world/europe/danes-rethink-a-welfare-state-ample-to-a-fault.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) shows how bad things can get. First you try to alleviate poverty, then you get more of it because suddenly it becomes viable to just not work. The advantage of a stingy welfare state like ours is that it’s just not an attractive alternative to working except for the most marginalized people in our society. ---
**Author:** ![anukulardecider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/94ad74/32.png) [@anukulardecider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anukulardecider)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-just-the-rich-more-maybe-not/655878/77 "2013-04-23T18:15:57Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > They all get overall better results than the US in most metrics, with the exception of cancer survival rates, which has a lot to do with early diagnosis. Emergency cases in UHC countries get seen quickly, but non-emergencies have to wait(depending on the system and its resources) and non-emergencies can become emergencies if you wait long enough. > > Well, I didn’t mean to say anything bad about the health care system, France’s is widely regarded as the best in the world. I was more referring to the income difference which makes air conditioning less attractive, even in France’s South, where it gets comparably hot to the middle US. Average high in Marseille is 86 in July, which means a lot of days in the 90s, which can be a big problem for elderly people even absent a major heat wave. The other problem was vacation time. Summer is vacation season so there may have been inadequate medical resources to care for elderly folks. Also, many were abandoned at home by their families, something not unheard of here, but not something you’d see done en masse. > > The unintended consequences of fighting poverty are primarily lack of initiative. A recent article in the NY Times: > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/21/world/europe/danes-rethink-a-welfare-state-ample-to-a-fault.html?pagewanted=all&\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/21/world/europe/danes-rethink-a-welfare-state-ample-to-a-fault.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) > > shows how bad things can get. First you try to alleviate poverty, then you get more of it because suddenly it becomes viable to just not work. The advantage of a stingy welfare state like ours is that it’s just not an attractive alternative to working except for the most marginalized people in our society. Interesting. I figured you’d show an example from the US. I don’t agree with your link, and the economy in Denmark is much better than Other European countries that took drastic austerity measures, which proved to be disastrous. I couldn’t check the links on that page because they weren’t in English. I think there is always going to be someone that does not want to work, but I’m sure that one man and one girl does not represent the majority of the country. I believe that most people want to work, and most people do not want to be on Government assistance. We shouldn’t cut the lower income because this reduces consumption, which lessons demand. I think a better way is to create jobs out of deficit spending, which in turn will bring in more revenue in the long run. I think it’s a bad idea to hurt the most venerable, who didn’t cause the crisis in the first place. This is interesting. Corporations have found a new way to avoid taxes. [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/22/business/restyled-as-real-estate-trusts-varied-businesses-avoid-taxes.html?hp&\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/22/business/restyled-as-real-estate-trusts-varied-businesses-avoid-taxes.html?hp&_r=0) ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-just-the-rich-more-maybe-not/655878/78 "2013-04-24T01:33:17Z")
Denmark’s economy is fine, but long term if enough people just take advantage of the welfare system then you end up like Greece. Welfare abuse leads to lack of respect for the system, which leads to tax evasion, which leads to fiscal collapse. ---
**Author:** ![pjnlsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e8c25b/32.png) [@pjnlsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjnlsn)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-just-the-rich-more-maybe-not/655878/79 "2013-04-24T02:00:14Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Denmark’s economy is fine, but long term if enough people just take advantage of the welfare system then you end up like Greece. Welfare abuse leads to lack of respect for the system, which leads to tax evasion, which leads to fiscal collapse. Greece is the way that it is because of the global recession, which indirectly caused a few other things, the recession essentially being caused by the reckless actions of a few corporate types. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-just-the-rich-more-maybe-not/655878/80 "2013-04-24T03:25:08Z")
Recessions are often used as an excuse by nations that are fiscally irresponsible, as if a recession is a totally unforeseen event, impossible to prepare for. “My house isn’t wet because it has no roof, it’s wet because it rained! Who could have predicted that!?” THat’s the way nations go bankrupt. They spend so much in good times that when the rainy day comes they’ve got a crisis. Then they blame their insolvency on the crisis. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-just-the-rich-more-maybe-not/655878.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-just-the-rich-more-maybe-not/655878.md?page=5)