# Tax Takers vs Tax Payers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 2, 2012, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-takers-vs-tax-payers/614530 "2012-03-02T09:01:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-takers-vs-tax-payers/614530/41 "2012-03-02T18:41:26Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Yes. Given a large number of people and an income disparity, it’s a mathematical certainty that if you zoom in far enough to the top earners, you’ll get a percentage of income that looks preposterous. If you took the top earners in the U.S. and shot them, you’d still have the same problem but with different dollar figures. yes there will always be a tail on the right. The complaint is not the existence of this tail, but how fat it is in terms of dollars earned by the outliers. In any manufacturing process you have outliers like this also - but if we had the kind of distribution we are seeing in income figures today it would represent a crisis. So you seem to be missing the point. It is not that people are rich, it is that they are so rich - more than in years past, and more than in other countries. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-takers-vs-tax-payers/614530/42 "2012-03-02T18:56:58Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > How is handing out earned income credits of $3,000 to $5,000 on April 15 part of the “social safety net”? > > Because they bank it and live off of it the rest of the year? Yeah, right! Do you want to go line-by-line through the U.S. federal tax code and evaluate each item for fairness? That’ll take a while. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-takers-vs-tax-payers/614530/43 "2012-03-02T19:09:45Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > […] so much money is taking out of my paycheck for federal and state income taxes. Nearly 1/4 of my income […] FYI, my total income tax rate is 36%, and our sales tax is 25%. I’m not complaining. I’m _for_ tax. Just sayin’. ETA: > [@Voyager](#): > > I’m lucky enough to have the brains to make money, I’m lucky enough to have been born into a good family, and I’m lucky enough that my parents could afford to send me to a great university. I’m happy to participate in the government taking some of my money (and I actually make enough so that I have enough) to give to those less fortunate than me. I give to charity also, but we all know damn well that people would not give nearly as much support to charity for support of the less well off as they give to government. Where’s the “like” button on this forum? Or, in other words: +1. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-takers-vs-tax-payers/614530/44 "2012-03-02T19:19:38Z")
I’m always amazed how easily some middle class folk get snowed by the rich into thinking they’re one of them. Obama: We need the rich (those making over $1 million/year) to pay their fair share to help the other 99%. Millionaire Rich Guy: Pssst… hey middle class buddy(making $55K/yr.)… see what he’s trying to do there. He’s trying to get working guys like you and me to pay more taxes so lazy welfare bastards don’t have to work. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-takers-vs-tax-payers/614530/45 "2012-03-02T19:40:16Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > FYI, my total income tax rate is 36%, and our sales tax is 25%. I’m not complaining. I’m _for_ tax. I’m curious. Where do you live that you have a 25% sales tax rate? I don’t think it’s more than ten percent anywhere in the US. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-takers-vs-tax-payers/614530/46 "2012-03-02T19:54:25Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > I’m always amazed how easily some middle class folk get snowed by the rich into thinking they’re one of them. > Obama: We need the rich (those making over $1 million/year) to pay their fair share to help the other 99%. > Millionaire Rich Guy: Pssst.. hey middle class buddy(making $55K/yr.)… see what he’s trying to do there. He’s trying to get working guys like you and me to pay more taxes so lazy welfare bastards don’t have to work. Reminds me of the joke that was popular back when Scott Walker and the Brothers Fitzgerald first started their anti-union offensive in Wisconsin… A union worker, a middle-class worker and a billionaire sat around a table that held a plate of a dozen cookies. The billionaire reached over and took 11 of them, then leaned over to the middle-class worker and whispered, “Watch that union guy…he’ll steal your cookie!” ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-takers-vs-tax-payers/614530/47 "2012-03-02T20:33:47Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I’m curious. Where do you live that you have a 25% sales tax rate? On the east bank (of the pond). ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-takers-vs-tax-payers/614530/48 "2012-03-02T20:57:43Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > Is it fair that the top .001%- just 14,000 families- earn 5% of the total US income? How does that math work? That would imply the US has 1.4 billion families. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-takers-vs-tax-payers/614530/49 "2012-03-02T21:12:27Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > yes there will always be a tail on the right. The complaint is not the existence of this tail, but how fat it is in terms of dollars earned by the outliers Tail? I’m not sure what graph you’re imagining, but I’m seeing a stack of one dollar next to a stack of two dollars next to a stack of three…next to a stack of $100. In that case, the top 1% ($100) has 2% of the wealth even though everyone is equidistant. The other graph I can think of would be quintile (or whatever group) vs. average income, which certainly doesn’t have a tail on the right. > [@Ludovic](#): > > It’s not my problem if they vote against their self-interest. They should sack up and walk the walk. Meanwhile, blue states’ economies are being dragged down by the money drained from them toward the red states, in addition to being _forced_ to have higher taxes than the red states just to maintain the same level of services. Y’know, I’ve been in these threads before, so I haven’t missed the point, but I’m merely pointing out the invalidity of trotting out the “small percentage of people have big percentage of the wealth!” line. It’s mathematically impossible for it to be any other way. The only way it could be valid is if you actually break those specific numbers down and see if they’re really unfair lopsided or not. In that case, though, you’d better be sure that the numbers are accurate and not pulled out of your ass. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-takers-vs-tax-payers/614530/50 "2012-03-02T21:16:17Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > I’m always amazed how easily some middle class folk get snowed by the rich into thinking they’re one of them. > Obama: We need the rich (those making over $1 million/year) to pay their fair share to help the other 99%. > Millionaire Rich Guy: Pssst.. hey middle class buddy(making $55K/yr.)… see what he’s trying to do there. He’s trying to get working guys like you and me to pay more taxes so lazy welfare bastards don’t have to work. Joe the Plumber taught us the answer to this one. Maybe he’s not making much now, but someday he will own his own business and be making a million bucks a year fixing sinks and backed up sewers, and then he’ll be happy the rich don’t pay their share. Rich guy and middle class guy are lost in the desert. The rich guy has a canteen full of water, the middle class guy has just a gulp. MCG: Can I share your water. I don’t have very much. RG: No. Don’t think you have an almost empty canteen, think that you have a canteen that will be full some day. And when you do you won’t want to share it either, so you should be grateful to me for setting an example. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-takers-vs-tax-payers/614530/51 "2012-03-02T21:18:13Z")
He worked hard for that water. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-takers-vs-tax-payers/614530/52 "2012-03-02T22:14:17Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > He worked hard for that water. Nah. His GRANDFATHER worked hard for that water… ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-takers-vs-tax-payers/614530/53 "2012-03-02T22:18:20Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > He worked hard for that water. Yeah, when he took it from the other guy. With a promise that the water would double. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-takers-vs-tax-payers/614530/54 "2012-03-02T22:22:56Z")
A rising water level fills all canteens. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-takers-vs-tax-payers/614530/55 "2012-03-02T22:33:09Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > How does that math work? That would imply the US has 1.4 billion families. Dunno- that’s the info I found [here](http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/10/30/nyregion/where-the-one-percent-fit-in-the-hierarchy-of-income.html). I’m home sick with the flu, so my brain’s a little fuzzy right now. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-takers-vs-tax-payers/614530/56 "2012-03-02T22:35:45Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Y’know, I’ve been in these threads before, so I haven’t missed the point, but I’m merely pointing out the invalidity of trotting out the “small percentage of people have big percentage of the wealth!” line. It’s mathematically impossible for it to be any other way. The only way it could be valid is if you actually break those specific numbers down and see if they’re really unfair lopsided or not. In that case, though, you’d better be sure that the numbers are accurate and not pulled out of your ass. The OP stated, repeatedly, that it was “unfair” that the bottom 50% don’t have to pay income taxes. I’m trying to get a feel for what he \*does \*consider to be fair. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-takers-vs-tax-payers/614530/57 "2012-03-02T22:48:58Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > It does seem unfair, especially when I, who made $140,000 last year paid less than 18% of my paycheck to federal and state taxes. 12.6% to the Feds. I think you have an incompetent accountant, or, you could be overestimating your tax bite. If he’s single, his tax on 43,000 is $4600. FICA is about 8%. so, putting them together that’s about 19%. His state tax may well bring it up to around the 25% level. I started out thinking you were right, but now that I’ve done the math it looks like 25% may be reasonable… The general idea, though, that one can be struggling because of the money they’re taking out for taxes–that rings false. You take home as much as you take home. Your living circumstances are due to your money management and your past. Taxes have only an indirect effect on your living circumstances, inasmuch as the tax system as a whole goes to pay (or not) for the infrastructure etc. (Above assumes standard deduction.) ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-takers-vs-tax-payers/614530/58 "2012-03-02T22:48:59Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > Dunno- that’s the info I found [here](http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/10/30/nyregion/where-the-one-percent-fit-in-the-hierarchy-of-income.html). I’m home sick with the flu, so my brain’s a little fuzzy right now. That NYTimes webpage says 0.01% but you said 0.001%. I think that’s why the math didn’t work for **Una Persson**. > [@Lightnin](#): > > Is it fair that the top .001%- just 14,000 families- earn 5% of the total US income? ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-takers-vs-tax-payers/614530/59 "2012-03-02T23:01:44Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > That NYTimes webpage says 0.01% but you said 0.001%. I think that’s why the math didn’t work for **Una Persson**. Ah, you’re right. I blame the flu. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-takers-vs-tax-payers/614530/60 "2012-03-03T00:48:36Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The top 1% are also largely amoral scum, have consistently screwed over the rest of humanity and are largely responsible for the present worldwide economic mess. Yet - since we are talking about fairness - I certainly don’t see them suffering many consequences for any of that. They’re on the whole probably the most liberal and tolerant and cosmopolitan people in America and the world (if you count the one percent of the world). They’re partially responsible for the current crisis but so are the millions of people who borrowed irresponsibily and bought houses they could not afford. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-takers-vs-tax-payers/614530.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-takers-vs-tax-payers/614530.md?page=4)