# Tax the rich and save the poor. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 16, 2017, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790 "2017-05-16T21:33:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Barack\_Obama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dc4da7/32.png) [@Barack\_Obama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barack_Obama)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/1 "2017-05-16T21:33:22Z")
The way things are now we’re taxing every pleb then turning around and letting single wealthy individuals keep billions by not taxing them. This has happen because money gives you influence. People with large amounts of money pay politicians to say or vote on certain things and it’s gotten to such an extent that it’s no longer illegal. Bribing a politician is completely legal in the United States. The results are the rich pay the politicians to do things that keep the rich from paying their share. Hence the gov not having enough money to do things, and the plebs having to pick up the slack. My proposal is simple and straight forward. Tax the rich and save the poor. Progressives need to stop playing patty cake with each other and actually start governing because republicans give no fucks and the democratic establishment is grossly incompetent. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/2 "2017-05-16T21:34:56Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > People with large amounts of money pay politicians to say or vote on certain things and it’s gotten to such an extent that it’s no longer illegal. Bribing a politician is completely legal in the United States. Examples please. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/3 "2017-05-16T21:38:47Z")
[The wealthy (if we define them as the top tenth of taxpayers) pay more than two-thirds of all federal income taxes.](http://money.cnn.com/2013/03/12/news/economy/rich-taxes/index.html) And as a certain Republican presidential candidate pointed out five years ago, 47 percent of Americans pay no federal income taxes whatsoever. I’m all for taxing the rich more, but how much more can you squeeze it? Make the top ten percent pay 99% of all income taxes? Make the bottom 80% pay nothing at all? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/4 "2017-05-16T21:39:16Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Examples please. [Here you go](http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/16/politics/trump-hotel-projection/). ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/5 "2017-05-16T21:40:03Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > Progressives need to stop playing patty cake with each other and actually start governing because republicans give no fucks and the democratic establishment is grossly incompetent. Which branches of government do the “progressives” control? How many governorships and statehouses, too? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/6 "2017-05-16T21:54:56Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Examples please. Err…ok (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > Today individual Americans are allowed to contribute only $2,600 per election to a federal candidate. Corporations, for their part, are prohibited from giving money directly to office-seekers. The Supreme Court didn’t change those facts, but its ruling made them far less relevant. The decision opened the door for anybody—individuals, corporations, interests groups—to give unlimited contributions to groups that then do the spending to influence federal elections. In effect, the donors and candidates are now allowed to circumvent the contribution limits. > > The results have already been striking: During the 2012 election cycle, super PACs, tax-exempt nonprofit organizations and businesses spent more than $1 billion, including more than $300 million contributed by donors whose identities were never disclosed. This represented three times as much spending by outside groups as in either the 2008 or the 2010 election. **In 2012, just 100 of the wealthiest people in America gave $339,490,176 to super PACs, or an average contribution of $3.4 million per donor** , according to the Center for Responsive Politics. > > SOURCE: [http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/01/citizens-united-campaign-finance-legalized-bribery-102366](http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/01/citizens-united-campaign-finance-legalized-bribery-102366) ---
**Author:** ![Barack\_Obama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dc4da7/32.png) [@Barack\_Obama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barack_Obama)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/7 "2017-05-16T21:55:32Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > [The wealthy (if we define them as the top tenth of taxpayers) pay more than two-thirds of all federal income taxes.](http://money.cnn.com/2013/03/12/news/economy/rich-taxes/index.html) And as a certain Republican presidential candidate pointed out five years ago, 47 percent of Americans pay no federal income taxes whatsoever. > I’m all for taxing the rich more, but how much more can you squeeze it? Make the top ten percent pay 99% of all income taxes? Make the bottom 80% pay nothing at all? Was already aware of this and I don’t care. My reason for not caring is because comparing low data statistics to high data statistics is illogical. 30% of 100 is 70 but 30% of 1 billion is 700 million. The value of 70 dollars versus 700 million dollars is too significant for me to consider that it’s unfair for the rich to pay more taxes since they’re rich. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/8 "2017-05-16T22:02:36Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > Was already aware of this and I don’t care. My reason for not caring is because comparing low data statistics to high data statistics is illogical. 30% of 100 is 70 but 30% of 1 billion is 700 million. The value of 70 dollars versus 700 million dollars is too significant for me to consider that it’s unfair for the rich to pay more taxes since they’re rich. So then answer the second part of my question then. What figures are you proposing? That the top ten percent pay 99% of all taxes? That the bottom 80% pay nothing? If that’s what you’re proposing, OK, but say so. ---
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/9 "2017-05-16T22:02:38Z")
I oppose both taxing the middle and lower classes to give the rich a cheap ride, AND taxing the rich to “save” the poor. Both ideas are based on the same set of lies about how the real world actually works. And doesn’t work. What we do need to do, is make everyone pay all the time, what it ACTUALLY COSTS to get what they want. Rather than let the rich continue to artificially avoid paying the REAL cost of labor, and passing it on to “the government” as they do now, we need to have the cost of a hour of labor be based on how much it actually costs the worker to be available and ready to work. And none of these games of fobbing the costs off on to other countries, too. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/10 "2017-05-16T22:08:41Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > Was already aware of this and I don’t care. My reason for not caring is because comparing low data statistics to high data statistics is illogical. 30% of 100 is 70 but 30% of 1 billion is 700 million. The value of 70 dollars versus 700 million dollars is too significant for me to consider that it’s unfair for the rich to pay more taxes since they’re rich. Could you translate this into English? I get that you don’t care about something, that facts don’t matter to you, but I can’t parse this into anything that makes any sort of sense. > [@](#): > > Tax the rich and save the poor. We sort of do this already. What I think you mean is tax the rich MORE…no? The devil is in the details. I’m not opposed to increasing taxes, but I’d want to know what they will be used for and how much…as well as a rational look at the impact of those taxes (also, a definition of who is ‘rich’ and who is ‘poor’ and what constitutes ‘save’ might be in order). > [@](#): > > Progressives need to stop playing patty cake with each other and actually start governing because republicans give no fucks and the democratic establishment is grossly incompetent. They would need to get elected in numbers that allowed them to do, well, anything. That’s the first step. THEN they can try and revise the tax code. Cart needs to be BEHIND horse… ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/11 "2017-05-16T22:11:18Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > And as a certain Republican presidential candidate pointed out five years ago, 47 percent of Americans pay no federal income taxes whatsoever. This is deeply misleading. (bolding mine) > [@](#): > > At the heart of the debate over “the 47 percent” is an awful abuse of tax data. > > This entire conversation is the result of a (largely successful) effort to redefine the debate over taxes from “how much in taxes do you pay” to “how much in federal income taxes do you pay?” This is good framing if you want to cut taxes on the rich. It’s bad framing if you want to have even a basic understanding of who pays how much in taxes. > > There’s a reason some would prefer that more limited conversation. **For most Americans, payroll and state and local taxes make up the majority of their tax bill.** The federal income tax, by contrast, is our most progressive tax – it’s the tax we’ve designed to place the heaviest burden on the rich while bypassing the poor. And we’ve done that, again, because the working class is already paying a fairly high tax bill through payroll and state and local taxes. > > SOURCE: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2012/09/19/heres-why-the-47-percent-argument-is-an-abuse-of-tax-data/?utm\_term=.d5370415ee32](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2012/09/19/heres-why-the-47-percent-argument-is-an-abuse-of-tax-data/?utm_term=.d5370415ee32) When the above is graphed the rich still pay a higher percentage but it is pretty close overall till you get to towards the lower incomes. That does not even account for regressive taxes like sales taxes or property taxes (and even renters pay property taxes passed through in their rent payments). ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/12 "2017-05-16T22:14:35Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I’m all for taxing the rich more, but how much more can you squeeze it? Under president Eisenhower [the tax rate was 90%.](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/nov/15/bernie-s/income-tax-rates-were-90-percent-under-eisenhower-/) Somehow rich people survived. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/13 "2017-05-16T22:15:57Z")
> [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > Rather than let the rich continue to artificially avoid paying the REAL cost of labor, and passing it on to “the government” as they do now, **we need to have the cost of a hour of labor be based on how much it actually costs the worker to be available and ready to work.** No. The cost of labor works the same as the cost of an apple at the grocery–whatever someone is willing to pay for it. ---
**Author:** ![sevenwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@sevenwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sevenwood)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/14 "2017-05-16T22:18:28Z")
> [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > What we do need to do, is make everyone pay all the time, what it ACTUALLY COSTS to get what they want. Well, now technically - if you take that approach you’d be taxing the poor what it actually costs to get what THEY want, and I don’t think that’s what you’re looking for. ---
**Author:** ![Barack\_Obama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dc4da7/32.png) [@Barack\_Obama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barack_Obama)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/15 "2017-05-16T22:26:10Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > So then answer the second part of my question then. What figures are you proposing? > > That the top ten percent pay 99% of all taxes? That the bottom 80% pay nothing? If that’s what you’re proposing, OK, but say so. Taxing natural people isn’t going to solve the problem. As I said 70 dollars is not the same as 700 million dollars. I’d rather tax someone who’ll have 700 million dollars left than someone who’ll have 70 dollars left. As far as your statistics go, they’re hogwash as far as I’m concerned. I don’t know anything about the data so how do you expect me to make a statement on it? What I will say though is the top 0.1% of people should be paying 99% of all taxes. Statistics do not portray their data’s value, they just show the data. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/16 "2017-05-16T22:30:41Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > As far as your statistics go, they’re hogwash as far as I’m concerned. I don’t know anything about the data so how do you expect me to make a statement on it? What I will say though is the top 0.1% of people should be paying 99% of all taxes. Statistics do not portray their data’s value, they just show the data. You know what you sound like? “I don’t care what the facts are, all I know is I want X and Y to happen, so make X and Y happen out of that mishmash of facts, regardless of what reality is. If the sky is blue but I prefer green, I want it to be green.” Not attacking you - just saying it like it is. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/17 "2017-05-16T22:37:02Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > [The wealthy (if we define them as the top tenth of taxpayers) pay more than two-thirds of all federal income taxes.](http://money.cnn.com/2013/03/12/news/economy/rich-taxes/index.html) And as a certain Republican presidential candidate pointed out five years ago, 47 percent of Americans pay no federal income taxes whatsoever. > I’m all for taxing the rich more, but how much more can you squeeze it? Make the top ten percent pay 99% of all income taxes? Make the bottom 80% pay nothing at all? When you talk about taxing the wealthy, the immediate response if to change the topic to income taxes. Income taxes are not the only taxes out there. Most wealthy people make only a small percentage of their money through something that can be defined as income for taxes purposes. They make most most of their money through investments. Long term capital gains taxes top out at twenty percent. And most long term capital gains are taxed at only fifteen percent. A person who makes $37,950 a year in income will pay a fifteen percent tax rate. And a person who makes $418,400 a year in long term capital gains will also pay a fifteen percent tax rate. So, yes, the tax system is rigged in favor of rich people. Because they don’t pay the same taxes you pay and their taxes are fixed at a much lower rate than yours are. You want a proposal? Tax capital gains at the same rate income is taxed at. Don’t charge rich people a higher tax. Just raise their rate to the same rate everyone else is already paying. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/18 "2017-05-16T22:43:44Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > That does not even account for regressive taxes like sales taxes or property taxes **(and even renters pay property taxes passed through in their rent payments).** Your statement is misleading. In my state, and probably in most of them, property taxes owed/paid are a matter of public record. Show me a single renter who is on the property tax roll. Landlords set their rents to exceed their expenses, with a profit. That does not mean the renter is paying property tax. Is the renter “paying for” painting the hallways? No. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/19 "2017-05-16T22:50:33Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I’m all for taxing the rich more, but how much more can you squeeze it? Make the top ten percent pay 99% of all income taxes? Make the bottom 80% pay nothing at all? 100% on all income above $100,000 per household member (you’d have to fudge the wording slightly so a couple filing separately couldn’t count their children twice, but you get the idea). 0% on all income below that. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/20 "2017-05-16T22:57:36Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Your statement is misleading. In my state, and probably in most of them, property taxes owed/paid are a matter of public record. > > Show me a single renter who is on the property tax roll. > > Landlords set their rents to exceed their expenses, with a profit. That does not mean the renter is paying property tax. > > Is the renter “paying for” painting the hallways? No. As you said, landlords set their rents to exceed their costs. That includes their cost in property taxes and painting the hallways. The renter is covering the cost of the property tax on their rental. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790.md?page=2)