# Tax the rich and save the poor. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 16, 2017, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790 "2017-05-16T21:33:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Barack\_Obama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dc4da7/32.png) [@Barack\_Obama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barack_Obama)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/41 "2017-05-16T23:54:47Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > LOL. Given your opposition to facts and data, might I ask if you’ve ever heard the phrase “kill the goose that laid the golden eggs”? Can you think of how it might apply to your proposal? The fact is 700mil \> 70. You cannot ignore the data of a statistic. The top 0.1% of people have far more value than the bottom 90%. Having 0.1% of the population pay 99% of the taxes is reasonable when you consider the gap in value between the top 0.1% relative to the bottom 90%. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/42 "2017-05-16T23:59:23Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > What I will say though is the top 0.1% of people should be paying 99% of all taxes. To put some numbers behind **Barack Obama** ’s proposal, according to [this site / cite](http://www.justfacts.com/taxes.asp): > [@](#): > > In 2016, federal, state and local governments collected a combined total of $4.9 trillion in taxes. 99% of that would be $4.851 trillion The US population was estimated at 323,148,587 on 7/4/2016, according to the [Census Bureau](https://www.census.gov/popclock/). 0.1% of that would be 323,148 primary taxpayers, who would each pay an average tax bill of ~$15 million, per year (if I’m doing my math right). ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/43 "2017-05-17T00:01:52Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Yes I know the difference. > > What is confusing to me is the point you are trying to make. The point is that tenants don’t pay property tax. That fact does not change no matter how often you repeat it. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/44 "2017-05-17T00:01:53Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > The fact is 700mil \> 70. You cannot ignore the data of a statistic. The top 0.1% of people have far more value than the bottom 90%. Having 0.1% of the population pay 99% of the taxes is reasonable when you consider the gap in value between the top 0.1% relative to the bottom 90%. It’s got fuck-all-of-nothing to do with what’s “reasonable”. It’s not POSSIBLE. Do you understand that? Those people that you want to take $15 million from each year won’t let you. They’ll move away to other countries that don’t charge insane taxes. Your proposal is giving them a $15 million incentive to do so. What are we going to do? Keep them chained up in a dungeon? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/45 "2017-05-17T00:03:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK, you asked for it. Cite? > > BTW, and before you go look for a cite, would you like to bet? I’d really like to bet if you’re game. > > Oh, and also btw, when we say “pay that rate” we mean “are in that bracket”. Not pay 90% (or 39.9%) of all their income No bet since I was venturing a guess as I said. I cannot find data on what individuals pay. Maybe there is someone paying the full 39.6% (lottery winners almost certainly). That said there is data on what the effective tax rates were then and now. > [@](#): > > Thomas Piketty (who is best known as the French economist promoting progressive tax rates) compiled data estimating tax rates in 1960, when the top rate was still 91%. According to his data, shown in the chart below, the top .01% of income earners paid an effective 31% income tax rate in 1960, compared with a rate of 25% in 2004. > > SOURCE: [Examining the 90% Tax Rate - The Meme Policeman](http://memepoliceman.com/examining-the-90-tax-rate/) (I know…odd site to quote but the article is well sourced) And [this Bloomberg article](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-06/five-charts-show-what-americans-really-pay-in-taxes) has a chart showing the top 0.1% pay an effective rate of 28%. So, if someone is paying the absolute max they are offset by others paying substantially less. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/46 "2017-05-17T00:05:15Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > The fact is 700mil \> 70. You cannot ignore the data of a statistic. The top 0.1% of people have far more value than the bottom 90%. Having 0.1% of the population pay 99% of the taxes is reasonable when you consider the gap in value between the top 0.1% relative to the bottom 90%. Serious question here…do you know how many families are in the top .1%? And what their combined annual income is? Assuming you do, do you understand what a massive shortfall from income tax the federal government would experience if you implemented your plan?? Hell, if you took ALL of their annual income, what do you think the federal government would get from taxes annually and what’s the difference between that and today?? Answer those questions and you’ll see how silly your plan is. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/47 "2017-05-17T00:08:31Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > The point is that tenants don’t pay property tax. That fact does not change no matter how often you repeat it. Where is the landlord getting the money to pay the property tax? ---
**Author:** ![Barack\_Obama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dc4da7/32.png) [@Barack\_Obama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barack_Obama)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/48 "2017-05-17T00:09:28Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It’s got fuck-all-of-nothing to do with what’s “reasonable”. It’s not POSSIBLE. Do you understand that? Those people that you want to take $15 million from each year won’t let you. They’ll move away to other countries that don’t charge insane taxes. Your proposal is giving them a $15 million incentive to do so. > > What are we going to do? Keep them chained up in a dungeon? We don’t have to do anything the economy will take care of it’s self. The rich pay more money to the government which in return redistributes the money back to the poor who now have more money in their pockets to buy stuff from the rich. ---
**Author:** ![Barack\_Obama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dc4da7/32.png) [@Barack\_Obama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barack_Obama)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/49 "2017-05-17T00:12:23Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Serious question here…do you know how many families are in the top .1%? And what their combined annual income is? Assuming you do, do you understand what a massive shortfall from income tax the federal government would experience if you implemented your plan?? Hell, if you took ALL of their annual income, what do you think the federal government would get from taxes annually and what’s the difference between that and today?? Answer those questions and you’ll see how silly your plan is. I’d tax their gains just as much like another doper proposed. I also wouldn’t let them avoid paying their taxes by immediately reinvesting their money. To sweeten the deal, I’m going to make the tax rate on their gains 2x their income tax rate. This will only apply to the very top of course. The higher up you get the more taxes we take out on your investments instead of your income like we would do with someone closer to the middle. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/50 "2017-05-17T00:13:31Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > We don’t have to do anything the economy will take care of it’s self. The rich pay more money to the government which in return redistributes the money back to the poor who now have more money in their pockets to buy stuff from the rich. Yeah. It’s how a universal basic income works. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/51 "2017-05-17T00:24:12Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Where is the landlord getting the money to pay the property tax? That’s not part of the equation. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/52 "2017-05-17T00:24:31Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > I’d tax their gains just as much like another doper proposed. I also wouldn’t let them avoid paying their taxes by immediately reinvesting their money. > To sweeten the deal, I’m going to make the tax rate on their gains 2x their income tax rate. This will only apply to the very top of course. The higher up you get the more taxes we take out on your investments instead of your income like we would do with someone closer to the middle. Sigh. So, you don’t understand the question. Let me rephrase…less than half a million Americans earn over $1 million a year. If you taxed ALL their annual income what do you expect the take to be from the federal government? We won’t even get into the fact you couldn’t do this or what effect it would have…just a straight up question. What’s the number you estimate it would be to tax their income at 100%? What is the difference between your estimate and the amount of money the federal government brings in today through income tax? ---
**Author:** ![Barack\_Obama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dc4da7/32.png) [@Barack\_Obama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barack_Obama)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/53 "2017-05-17T00:55:11Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Sigh. So, you don’t understand the question. Let me rephrase…less than half a million Americans earn over $1 million a year. If you taxed ALL their annual income what do you expect the take to be from the federal government? We won’t even get into the fact you couldn’t do this or what effect it would have…just a straight up question. What’s the number you estimate it would be to tax their income at 100%? What is the difference between your estimate and the amount of money the federal government brings in today through income tax? Cut their returns in half and tax 400k people making 1 mil income at 40%. that’d be $160,000,000,000,000 in revenue that year. Is that what you’re asking of me? Or do you want me to say someone who can earn 1bil in income should lose all their money? 99% vs 100% is a big difference. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/54 "2017-05-17T01:04:48Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > Cut their returns in half and tax 400k people making 1 mil income at 40%. that’d be $160,000,000,000,000 in revenue that year. > > Is that what you’re asking of me? Or do you want me to say someone who can earn 1bil in income should lose all their money? 99% vs 100% is a big difference. That’s a math failure. 400,000 x $1 million x 40% = $160 Billion, NOT $160 Trillion. How far into January will $160B get the federal government? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/55 "2017-05-17T01:06:35Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > Cut their returns in half and tax 400k people making 1 mil income at 40%. that’d be $160,000,000,000,000 in revenue that year. > > Is that what you’re asking of me? Or do you want me to say someone who can earn 1bil in income should lose all their money? 99% vs 100% is a big difference. No…I’m basically asking you how you think that half a million people making on average something like $1.5 million (top .1%) could, even at 100% tax make up the large difference in revenue the federal government currently brings in. No idea where you are getting $160 trillion dollars from…that’s off by an order of magnitude. I get $750 BILLION (and this is using wildly inflated figures…there aren’t actually 500k in the top .1%, etc etc), give or take a few hundred billion. That’s a lot less than what the federal government currently gets. You’d need to drop down to taxing the top 1%, not .1%, and basically you’d need to take most of it to get where you seem to be wanting to go. Really, instead you should just raise the top rate and get rid of some deductions instead, as that’s more realistic. My main point is that the top .1% from an ANNUAL INCOME perspective is a lot less than you seem to realize, even if you somehow swipe it all. ---
**Author:** ![Barack\_Obama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dc4da7/32.png) [@Barack\_Obama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barack_Obama)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/56 "2017-05-17T01:10:21Z")
> [@XT](#): > > No…I’m basically asking you how you think that half a million people making on average something like $1.5 million (top .1%) could, even at 100% tax make up the large difference in revenue the federal government currently brings in. No idea where you are getting $160 trillion dollars from…that’s off by an order of magnitude. I get $750 BILLION (and this is using wildly inflated figures…there aren’t actually 500k in the top .1%, etc etc), give or take a few hundred billion. That’s a lot less than what the federal government currently gets. You’d need to drop down to taxing the top 1%, not .1%, and basically you’d need to take most of it to get where you seem to be wanting to go. > > Really, instead you should just raise the top rate and get rid of some deductions instead, as that’s more realistic. My main point is that the top .1% from an ANNUAL INCOME perspective is a lot less than you seem to realize, even if you somehow swipe it all. Yeah it is pretty low. So how much capital gains do the top 0.1 earn? (by year) Do you know that one? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/57 "2017-05-17T01:20:26Z")
> [@XT](#): > > No…I’m basically asking you how you think that half a million people making on average something like $1.5 million (top .1%) could, even at 100% tax make up the large difference in revenue the federal government currently brings in. No idea where you are getting $160 trillion dollars from…that’s off by an order of magnitude. I get $750 BILLION (and this is using wildly inflated figures…there aren’t actually 500k in the top .1%, etc etc), give or take a few hundred billion. That’s a lot less than what the federal government currently gets. You’d need to drop down to taxing the top 1%, not .1%, and basically you’d need to take most of it to get where you seem to be wanting to go. > > Really, instead you should just raise the top rate and get rid of some deductions instead, as that’s more realistic. My main point is that the top .1% from an ANNUAL INCOME perspective is a lot less than you seem to realize, even if you somehow swipe it all. 3 orders of magnitude off. :smack: Doesn’t matter…way off. [QUOTE=Barack Obama] Yeah it is pretty low. So how much capital gains do the top 0.1 earn? (by year) Do you know that one? [/QUOTE] On average? Quick google search seems to indicate 1% get 36% of their income from capital gains. Not sure about the top .1%, but you still ain’t gonna be close. You are still in the hundreds of billions you would swipe, even assuming you could take it all (and leaving aside what this would do to the economy). ---
**Author:** ![Barack\_Obama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dc4da7/32.png) [@Barack\_Obama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barack_Obama)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/58 "2017-05-17T01:20:44Z")
I’ve concluded the US needs a wealth tax. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/59 "2017-05-17T01:22:22Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > That’s not part of the equation. So by your reckoning when you buy a car you are not paying for the metal and rubber and plastic and what not because the company that made it paid for those things. ---
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790/60 "2017-05-17T01:25:14Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No. The cost of labor works the same as the cost of an apple at the grocery–whatever someone is willing to pay for it. I know that that is how it has been ARRANGED to work. I suggest we STOP doing that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich-and-save-the-poor/786790.md?page=4)