# Tax the rich! **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 16, 2019, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867 "2019-10-16T20:32:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![neutro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@neutro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutro)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/21 "2019-10-17T00:28:02Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I guess my question is whether or not there’s really _that_ much money to be had by sticking it to the rich more. They’re not pulling their weight in terms of taxes anyway, so go for it if that’s the case. > > But if there’s really not that much money to be had in terms of governmental tax revenue(i.e. enough to materially change the Federal budget), then it sounds like sour grapes driven retribution / class warfare to me, and that makes me more than a little bit uneasy. There isn’t unless you start taxing wealth. In which case you will destroy a bunch of wealth in the process. ---
**Author:** ![neutro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@neutro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutro)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/22 "2019-10-17T00:29:45Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > I can’t. I can, however, say that unless someone’s living in the same world as me, trying to debate them is pointless. > > Education is hard. Self-righteous ignorance is easy. The former can’t conquer the latter until the person to be taught renounces enough ego to admit they were wrong. **neutro** shows no sign of that so far, so I refuse to waste my time. I’m plenty educated on the subject. You seem very indignant that someone might have a different opinion. Let’s have this conversation again after you’ve paid some heavy taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/23 "2019-10-17T00:31:02Z")
> [@neutro](#): > > I already listed it above $2M or so in round numbers. Did you guys think that was a hypothetical? In the discussion above you noted that this rate was lower than if a person only made $100k. So you are advocating for an even lower rate? I’m curious: do you think there is anything particular to America that allowed you to make that $2 million. What I mean is, do you think you could have earned that anywhere, and it’s purely choice (or an accident of birth) that locates you in the U.S., or are there any characteristics of America’s economy, government, society, or other facet that made those earnings feasible? ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/24 "2019-10-17T00:40:55Z")
> [@neutro](#): > > “Tax rate” is already an abstraction though. If I make $2M and pay $500k in taxes…Of course the only way that would happen is if those are capital gains or dividends. Capital gains entail risk and dividends are double taxed… This doesn’t actually appear to match the actual tax rates in effect. You’ll excuse me for not realizing that this was meant to be a factual account. > **[Capital Gains Tax: Short- and Long-Term Rates, How It Works - NerdWallet](https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/taxes/capital-gains-tax-rates)** > > Long- or short-term capital gains tax rates can apply to assets or investments sold for a profit. The length of ownership before selling helps determine which tax rates apply. > **[Dividend Tax Rate for 2023 and 2024 | SmartAsset](https://smartasset.com/taxes/dividend-tax-rate)** > > Dividends are a great way to earn extra income, but you will pay taxes on them. Here's a breakdown of the applicable tax rates on your 2023 dividends. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/25 "2019-10-17T01:09:19Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Sure, but (a) not everybody who has a lot of money is productive, and (b) nobody AFAIK is seriously suggesting that taxation should take away **all** or even **most** of the money rich people have. Does an effective 97% tax rate qualify for **all** or even **most**? [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-14/billionaires-could-face-tax-rates-up-to-97-5-under-sanders](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-14/billionaires-could-face-tax-rates-up-to-97-5-under-sanders) ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/26 "2019-10-17T01:55:15Z")
> [@neutro](#): > > I’m plenty educated on the subject. > [@neutro](#): > > Diminishing marginal utility is something made up Nope, you’re not. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/27 "2019-10-17T01:55:28Z")
So hilarious to hear a bunch of poor people defend the wealthy as if they someday think they’ll be in the same strata as billionaires. 62 Billionaires possesses literally half the wealth in the world. [https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2016/jan/18/richest-62-billionaires-wealthy-half-world-population-combined](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2016/jan/18/richest-62-billionaires-wealthy-half-world-population-combined) I promise you billionaires and corporations don’t care about you, why do you care about them? Take a look around sometime the cost of living keeps going up, but real wages are stagnant or even decreasing. When my Dad was in his twenties he was the sole provider and owned a house and two cars, and had two children, people now can’t even survive let alone thrive. Poignant clip of Noam Chomsky discussing these very issues: [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lPBaVcHJtjk](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lPBaVcHJtjk) ---
**Author:** ![SuperAbe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@SuperAbe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuperAbe)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/28 "2019-10-17T02:26:44Z")
> [@neutro](#): > > Anyway I’ve had this discussion before. Soak the rich is basically the mantra of most people. I get it, but I think it’s kinda gross. People will come up with all kinds of excuses as to why anyone who makes more than them should get soaked before them. “Why tax the rich?” “Because that’s where the money is.” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/29 "2019-10-17T03:15:43Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Does an effective 97% tax rate qualify for **all** or even **most**? > > [Bloomberg - Are you a robot?](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-14/billionaires-could-face-tax-rates-up-to-97-5-under-sanders) Uh, your cited article says that that estimated effective tax rate (which includes a wealth tax on inherited assets) would apply to the 400 richest individuals. No, that definitely does not qualify as taking away “all or even most of the money that rich people have”, even if it would take away most of the money belonging to that small subset of the richest individuals. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/30 "2019-10-17T03:21:12Z")
> [@neutro](#): > > Meh, next time you write a check for $500k to the government we can talk. I really doubt you appreciate what it’s like to do that. I definitely have never written a check for $500K in taxes, and I very much doubt that you have either. However, a tax liability of $500K on an income of $2M corresponds to an effective tax rate of only about 25%. I have definitely paid tax at a higher rate than that, so I’ve actually paid heavier taxes as a proportion of income than this hypothetical taxpayer writing checks for $500K. Anyway, if I had an income of $2M, I would be perfectly happy to write the government a tax check for 25% of that, or even 75% or more. I can get by just fine on an annual income of a “mere” few hundred thousand dollars, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![neutro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@neutro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutro)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/31 "2019-10-17T03:55:03Z")
As I said, I get it. Most people are fine to soak anyone who makes more than them. A fair tax system would be dividing up the budget by the number of people and sending everyone a bill. Then people would get the government they are willing to pay for. Anyway I’ll continue to whine about paying ridiculous sums to the government. Doing anything other than whining is pointless because I know that everyone else is on the other side of the table on this one. A flat tax with a basic deduction for everyone and a cap seems pretty reasonable to me. Say a max of $100k in taxes. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/32 "2019-10-17T05:21:49Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Uh, your cited article says that that estimated effective tax rate (which includes a wealth tax on inherited assets) would apply to the 400 richest individuals. No, that definitely does not qualify as taking away “all or even most of the money that rich people have”, even if it would take away most of the money belonging to that small subset of the richest individuals. So you’re OK with a law targeting 400 individuals out of a population of 327 million? Also, a wealth tax would likely require a Constitutional Amendment, due to the issue of apportionment. Good luck getting that passed. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/33 "2019-10-17T06:00:39Z")
> [@neutro](#): > > Diminishing marginal utility is something made up to justify taking the money IMHO. Marginal utility has been experimentally verified. And if you ever have had money (I have) it is pretty fucking obvious. Think of how much $100 is worth to a person who has nothing in the bank and is going to use it for food. Now think how much it is worth to someone with a couple of million bucks in the bank? It’s in the noise. Now think how much it is worth to Bill Gates. The example I’ve heard is that the first ice cream cone or even the second on a summer day is worth a good bit - the 9th, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/34 "2019-10-17T06:04:12Z")
> [@neutro](#): > > The economic part of it is fine. But people then use it to claim how people are supposed to feel about paying huge checks to the government and from that perspective it’s BS. The first time I wrote a huge check it made me question where the money went a lot more. I’ve paid more in taxes than I made when I started to work at Bell Labs. I felt good about it, since it meant that I made a ton of money that year. I didn’t feel soaked in the least. You do want to pay our soldiers, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/35 "2019-10-17T06:06:40Z")
> [@neutro](#): > > As I said, I get it. Most people are fine to soak anyone who makes more than them. > > A fair tax system would be dividing up the budget by the number of people and sending everyone a bill. Then people would get the government they are willing to pay for. Ah, so giving the same bill to a guy flipping burgers for minimum wage and a billionaire makes sense to you? And are you absolutely sure that both these people get the same amount out of government? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/36 "2019-10-17T07:47:11Z")
> [@pool](#): > > I promise you billionaires and corporations don’t care about you, why do you care about them? They’be bought the myth that wealthy people are somehow smarter and more capable than they are, and if they just let the CEO’s run things one day they, too, will be billionaires. That’s bullshit, of course. Billionaires have no incentive to add to their ranks. While there are some benevolent wealthy people out there for the most part they only care about themselves and their families, which is why they use their wealth and influence to change the system to benefit themselves. Not you. Themselves. Why should I care about a class of people that I will never be a part of, who aren’t even aware I exist? We’ve been hearing about “trickle down” since Reagan was elected in 1980, but so far as I can tell that isn’t wealth trickling down it’s piss. The lot of the common man has NOT gotten better, if anything, it has gotten worse since the general public swallowed the notion that benefiting the wealthy would benefit everyone. It doesn’t. We’ve had 40 years of that and that is long enough. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/37 "2019-10-17T08:36:23Z")
> [@neutro](#): > > Meh, next time you write a check for $500k to the government we can talk. I really doubt you appreciate what it’s like to do that. I wonder if there is some equivalent to something like an “opposite marginal utility of money” that only affects wealthy people? Kind of like each extra dollar received inflates their ego a bit more and gives them a greater sense of entitlement and resentment. > [@D'Anconia](#): > > So you’re OK with a law targeting 400 individuals out of a population of 327 million? Maybe a better question is why so much wealth consolidated with so few people? > [@pool](#): > > So hilarious to hear a bunch of poor people defend the wealthy as if they someday think they’ll be in the same strata as billionaires. > > 62 Billionaires possesses literally half the wealth in the world. How do they come up with that? From some quick Googling: The total wealth of the Forbes 400 (wealthiest 400 people in America) is $2.7 trillion Total wealth of all American households is $98 trillion. That’s only like 3%. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/38 "2019-10-17T09:29:14Z")
These days the mainstream magazines are full of stories that lament the economic and social flaws of income inequality. But perhaps the real ‘income inequality problem’ is that incomes aren’t unequal enough! Some say that the present U.S. GINI is unprecedented. Wrong! It was higher at the height of the Roaring Twenties boom — those years were called ‘Roaring’ for a reason. 14th-century Paris, just before the bubonic plague struck, had a GINI estimated at 0.7. The great New Spain Empire during the 18th century also had a GINI much higher than today’s U.S. Like “P/E ratio” — which needs a 2nd parameter to be meaningful — GINI is misleading without a 2nd parameter. See, for example, [this graph](https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/12/Pre-Industrial-Inequality.png). > [@neutro](#): > > A fair tax system would be dividing up the budget by the number of people and sending everyone a bill. Even a flat tax, as you’ve defined it, might be unfair to the rich. I explained this in an earlier thread: > [@The 2017/2018 Trump/GOP tax plan](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/91): > > **Why not a truly Fair Tax?** > > At present Americans pay an average of $4600 in individual income taxes. It would be fair to jack up the taxes for SocSec and Medicare, which are underfunded, and borrow a few more 100’s of Million annually from China. Do both and we can cut the average income tax in half. > > Some would say that $2300 per each person, young or old, rich or poor, would be the fairest tax. But if you think about it this discriminates against the rich. > > **The rich use _private_ schools — is it really fair to make them also fund _public_ schools? They often have their own private security — why should they have to pay as much for police as the people in crime-ridden ghettos? The rich shouldn’t be forced to subsidize national parks — they vacation in the Caribbean or on the Riviera. And what sense does it make for the rich to help fund the Dept. of Labor??** > > A fair tax would be progressive; something like this: > > - Earning less than $75,000 per year — pay $3000 > - Earning $75,000 to $150,000 — pay $2500 > - Earning $150,000 to $350,000 — pay $2000 > - Earning $350,000 to $550,000 — pay $1500 > - Earning $550,000 to $750,000 — pay $1000 > Anyone earning more than $1,000,000 is probably a Job Creator. _ **The government should be subsidizing them, not taxing them.** _ I know the Trump plan won’t accomplish all this, but it will be a big step in the right direction. > > Yes, the $3000 tax would be burdensome on many freeloaders. I think the tax would motivate them to find work! And the prohibitions against cash for kidneys and other organs should be repealed of course — Win, win! ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/39 "2019-10-17T10:22:03Z")
> [@neutro](#): > > If I go to burger king they don’t charge me more based on my income. This is just an excuse to justify taking as much as possible. What if they charged everyone the same amount - and that meant that half of their customers couldn’t afford to eat there anymore? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/40 "2019-10-17T11:55:51Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Some say that the present U.S. GINI is unprecedented. Wrong! It was higher at the height of the Roaring Twenties boom Well, hard to come up with more a solid financial strategy than trying to replicate the 1920’s. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867.md?page=3)