# Tax the rich! **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 16, 2019, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867 "2019-10-16T20:32:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/121 "2019-10-18T23:42:51Z")
If we switched to a national sales tax, there would be no way the wealthy could avoid the tax and hence, no need to raise taxes on the rich. I support something like the Fairtax or a value added tax and the elimination of all other taxes. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/122 "2019-10-18T23:53:24Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > If we switched to a national sales tax, there would be no way the wealthy could avoid the tax and hence, no need to raise taxes on the rich. I support something like the Fairtax or a value added tax and the elimination of all other taxes. Sales taxes are notoriously regressive - which is short for “the wealthy avoid the tax”. Slamming the sales taxes up to 50 or 100 or 200 percent or whatever it would take to match the ‘all other taxes’ you’re proposing to eliminate would result in people who currently live paycheck to paycheck starving to death due to their wages being functionally slashed, while wealthy people grin and easily pay the increase with a tiny fraction of the massive windfall they got from you cutting their income taxes. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/123 "2019-10-19T00:21:36Z")
**Moderator Warning** > [@neutro](#): > > Also fuck you. > > You people are fucking insane. You think having a few bucks removes all the barriers in life? > > Fucking delusional. This is an official warning for insults and Pit-style comments outside of the Pit. > [@neutro](#): > > Mods please delete my account from this board and the fucking losers on here. We don’t delete anything here, but I can certainly remove your posting privileges. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/124 "2019-10-19T00:38:38Z")
> [@neutro](#): > > Also fuck you. > > You people are fucking insane. You think having a few bucks removes all the barriers in life? > > Fucking delusional. > > Mods please delete my account from this board and the fucking losers on here. I can’t believe that someone making $2M a year is this angry about a bunch of anonymous internet posters. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/125 "2019-10-19T00:44:30Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Ah, so when the investor leaves his money in the business it funds growth, just as a shareholder in Amazon, Walmart, Netflix, Google, etc. their profits are used to fund growth within those businesses, which is still capital investment. Are you under the impression that when someone sells stock, the company buys it back? That’s not typically how it works, unless the company is doing a buyback, which it does when it has a ton of cash on hand, and nothing to invest it in. In any case, that is why I favor going back to, and extending the long term/short term capital gains rates. I would put a punitive level of taxation on gains for securities held less than 6 months, and wouldn’t actually give you benefits until you had held it at least 5 years, with additional benefits at 10 and 20. This would encourage more long term considerations, and discourage vulture capitalism. But yeah, I only take from my company the minimum I need to live a rather frugal lifestyle, as every dollar I leave in is a dollar that is working for me. The tax code is favorable to that, as I am only taxed on my profits, only what I take from the company. If you increased taxes, that would not affect my plans at all. Let me ask you, if the tax code stayed the same, except adding a new bracket at 1 million at 40%, one at 10 million at 60%, 25 million at 75%, 100 million at 90%, and 1 billion at 95%, would that change the way that you made any financial or employment decisions? > [@Omar\_Little](#): > > As normal, you completely missed the point. No, I don’t think so. You seem to think that just buying stock and raising its price is something that is good for the economy. The DOW is not the economy. The stock market is not the economy. The economy is consumer spending. You are saying that without high stock prices, companies will not reinvest to increase their production. You have that entirely backwards. Without demand, companies will not reinvest to increase production. If a company has more demand for a product they produce than they are able to, then coming up with financing for expansion is the easiest of your problems. We may run into a situation where there is not enough investment to meet the demands of the consumer, but that is a very rare situation, and it is very far from where we are now. In order to have consumer spending, you have to have wages. So, in order to increase demand, you have to increase the take home pay of your customers. You cannot increase the take home pay of your customers by increasing your stock price. > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Forgive me for moving this discussion in another direction - While I am in favor of raising taxes on the rich I dont see how it would be done seeing that the wealthy are careful to donate money to both parties and people like Hilary often give $150,000 speeches to business groups. > > I also dont see how to tax the rich since so many of them keep their money offshore. We still have the ultimate power of the vote. We are their bosses, if we actually agree on something, and hold them to it, they actually do have to do what we say. And offshore accounts are not that big a deal anymore, as most countries have voluntary reporting, and if you use other countries, you get very scrutinized. It still happens, I’m sure, but it’s only accounting for a small fraction of the available tax base. > [@cornopean](#): > > If we switched to a national sales tax, there would be no way the wealthy could avoid the tax and hence, no need to raise taxes on the rich. I support something like the Fairtax or a value added tax and the elimination of all other taxes. I would go with a national property tax. Not based on the property, but on the owner. A progressive tax that doesn’t kick in until you own somewhere around $5 mill in real estate. This is much easier to audit than money in an account or under a mattress, as real estate is hard to hide. It also has the advantage of reducing the hoarding of land for speculative use, which would help to solve the housing crisis. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/126 "2019-10-19T17:32:33Z")
> [@neutro](#): > > You all can go fuck yourselves. You are completely delusional if you think money solves all the problems in life. Thanks for helping us shed that delusion. We now know of an American with $1,500,000 in after-taxes annual earnings who is enraged by the unfairness that that’s all he gets. Thanks for sharing. ---
**Author:** ![BrickBat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac91a4/32.png) [@BrickBat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrickBat)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/127 "2019-10-19T21:07:17Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I can’t believe that someone making $2M a year is this angry about a bunch of anonymous internet posters. ( very ) Sore winner perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2019, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/128 "2019-10-20T04:55:25Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I can’t believe that someone making $2M a year is this angry about a bunch of anonymous internet posters. I can’t help but feel partially responsible for the penis comment. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2019, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/129 "2019-10-20T08:46:39Z")
Yeah, if it hadn’t been for the penis-measuring we’d still have him here so we could point out the flaws in his argument/viewpoint to him. Actually, I get the impression he showed up here to Enlighten the Masses and got all pissy when the peasantry didn’t buy it and in fact kept insisting that, actually, he did not have any clothes on. (I understand the impulse to point and laugh, but seriously, guys, next time let’s avoid penis comments). Don’t we understand that the fact we have less money than him proves that we are less intelligent and suffer less than he does? [/sarcasm] More seriously - I’ve suffered through the problems of the poor and the middle class. I’m willing to take a stab the problems of the wealthy, once I figure out how to become wealthy. Pretty sure I’ll be able to manage those, too. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2019, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/130 "2019-10-20T09:27:51Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > You know what the difference is between economics and geology? Nobody ever goes up to a geologist and says “Igneous rocks are bullshit!” Well I’ll be the one to say it then. Because igneous rocks \*\*are \*\*bullshit. I simply don’t believe they’re rocks at all. They’re just lazy liquids. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2019, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/131 "2019-10-20T13:05:06Z")
Actually I think bullshit is more likely to be sedimentary rock. Eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2019, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/132 "2019-10-20T13:38:31Z")
The word’s coprolite. Or, possibly, Senate majority leader. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2019, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/133 "2019-10-20T16:02:45Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Why is it that investment capital is do disregarded? It isn’t. What’s disregarded is who invests that capital. What difference is there between you buying 300 shares of Microsoft, and I taxing you that dollar value and using it to buy 300 shares of Microsoft? > [@](#): > > Without the capital invested in those appreciating, dividend producing assets, there would be no jobs that those companies create, no products that society consumes or enjoys, and no corporate income taxes paid on the income that those companies’ generate. The capital is still invested. Just by me, not you. > [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Do you believe that all companies should be ESOP’s? If people can’t even pony up money for 401k contributions, where do you think the capital will come from to invest in companies? From taxes. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2019, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/134 "2019-10-20T18:53:56Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > The whole wealth tax is a sham and isn’t even feasible to enforce or even be attempted. > > Let’s use Jeff Bezos as an example. The Federal Government is going to arbitrarily pick one day every year to measure his wealth. AMZN stock is a volatile security, so which day does the government want to pick? December 31st? So they end of the year is selected. It says that Bezos wealth is $85 billion and the government wants 3% of that, $2.6 billion. But almost all of Bezos’ wealth is tied up in his ownership of AMZN, so the government is going to force him to liquidate a portion of his company to pay his wealth tax. > > Now that’s for the owner of a publicly traded company. What about people that privately own their companies, no publicly traded exchange to value them. What mechanism will be used to value their company’s, some journalist at Forbes? And then they are forced to sell off a portion of their private company to pay the wealth tax? > > \*\*This thing would be tied up in the courts forever. > > It will never happen.\*\* These are feasible, straightforward even. Just think a little orthogonal. Assets eventually change hands for a price from a disinterested buyer/seller. As a government, do we care what the \*dollar \*amount is, or the _percentage_? The simplest thing to do would be to say “we own x% of that asset.” So if the wealth tax is 1% a year, the government owns “1%” of that asset. The next year, 2%. Whenever the asset finally is sold in a transaction between a disinterested buyer/seller, the government gets whatever percent they are entitled to. These are a mechanism similar to liens. The other option is the owner can instead “clear” these liens each year by establishing a price by showing a transaction with a disinterested buyer to establish a price, then they can pay the lien. So for illiquid assets, where the owner is not willing to sell to a disinterested party or have it appraised by a disinterested party (I am using the term “disinterested” to mean a party that doesn’t have any other financial interest besides this single transaction), I guess they can just choose the lien instead. Inheritance wouldn’t work like it does now. For major assets above a certain dollar level, the heirs would need to outbid other bidders for the asset to continue to own it as well as pay the lien. If they can’t pay it, it goes to whoever bid the most, and the heirs get the money instead, minus the amount of the lien. The government can wait. In most cases this would be beneficial to the government - most real assets, whether it be land or shares in a corporation, _increase_ in value over time. Similarly, it can afford to wait 40 years or however long it takes. From a government’s perspective, it’s going to long outlive any individual citizen. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/135 "2019-10-22T13:39:03Z")
I think that it’s the American dream to work hard and become a millionaire. I also don’t think that ANYONE ought to pay more than 40% of their income towards taxes. That being said, I think that the easiest, and fairest, way to tax people is to get rid of voluntary deductions, from the mortgage interest deduction to charitable contributions. Take away the loopholes and let everyone pay where their income lands on the grid. For those who think that taxing the rich more is a great idea, I’ll remind you that those with the most resources have the most options. Many of the richest people in the world have residences in Dubai and Monaco for the sole purpose of avoiding usurious taxes. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/136 "2019-10-22T21:53:49Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Why is it that investment capital is do disregarded? > > Without the capital invested in those appreciating, dividend producing assets, there would be no jobs that those companies create, no products that society consumes or enjoys, and no corporate income taxes paid on the income that those companies’ generate. > > Do you believe that all companies should be ESOP’s? If people can’t even pony up money for 401k contributions, where do you think the capital will come from to invest in companies? I’m not sure how you get any of this from my statement. I don’t think “investment capital is so disregarded” (whatever that means). I think there is a danger of too much investment capital consolidated within too small a group for several reasons: 1. It tends to exacerbate wealth inequality because capital tends to beget more capital. 2. It is inherently undemocratic as it allows a small group of people enormous decision-making ability into what society should invest in. OTOH, living in a country that allows private cities to become billionaires through their own industriousness has led to great advances in railroads (Vanderbilt), steel (Carnegie), chemistry (DuPont), automobiles (Ford), aviation (Hughes), petroleum (Rockefeller), personal computers (Gates), overpriced hipster electronics (Jobs), and connecting with people so they can annoy the shit out of each other (Zuckerberg). ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/137 "2019-10-23T13:32:24Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > … Do we need to find ways to balance our federal budget? Definitely. That needs to come from increased taxes and a smaller federal budget. Do you propose to increase taxes on the rich, or on the working class? Before answering recall that _even before the Trump-Hannity tax cuts_, Warren Buffett was taxed at a lower rate than his secretary. How do you propose to decrease the federal budget? Recall that SocSec is self-funding: it is not financed by income taxes. Be aware that Discretionary Federal Government Spending as a percent of GDP is lower now than it has ever been since the end of World War II. The biggest items, by far, among Non-Mandatory Spending are: Military, Interest on the Debt, and Veterans’ Assistance. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2019, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/138 "2019-10-27T08:58:27Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Do you propose to increase taxes on the rich, or on the working class? Before answering recall that _even before the Trump-Hannity tax cuts_, Warren Buffett was taxed at a lower rate than his secretary. > > How do you propose to decrease the federal budget? Recall that SocSec is self-funding: it is not financed by income taxes. Be aware that Discretionary Federal Government Spending as a percent of GDP is lower now than it has ever been since the end of World War II. The biggest items, by far, among Non-Mandatory Spending are: Military, Interest on the Debt, and Veterans’ Assistance. My question, directed at present-day “fiscal conservatives,” was met with deafening silence. It’s _very_ difficult to treat the self-label “fiscal conservative” seriously, or even as meaningful. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2019, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/139 "2019-10-27T09:15:46Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > A country needs a certain amount of money to be run to a particular standard. Ideally, you should get that money from where it will be missed the least. Jean Baptiste Colbert: > [@](#): > > [The art of taxation](https://www.forbes.com/quotes/4829/) consists in so plucking the goose as to obtain the largest possible amount of feathers with the smallest possible amount of hissing. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2019, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867/140 "2019-10-27T09:27:15Z")
Also stolen and re-purposed by Pratchett, as are so many juicy sayings “Taxation, gentlemen, is very much like dairy farming. The task is to extract the maximum amount of milk with the minimum of moo. And I am afraid to say that these days all I get is moo.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tax-the-rich/841867.md?page=8)