# Taxation is no different than extortion. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704 "2013-05-07T15:08:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/201 "2013-05-08T08:14:08Z")
Yeah, I agree, extortion isn’t right. I think “force” is the term that captures the entire moral problem sufficiently. All exercise of government power is force, and should thus be used only when absolutely necessary. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/202 "2013-05-08T09:05:12Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > To build it? Sure it is, since there is no way of knowing that the people who won’t contribute will decide to use it at some other time. It does make sense to charge users for incremental costs such as cleaning and lifeguards. If you can control access to the swimming pool, there _is_ a way of knowing that people who don’t contribute won’t use it. The whole point was that there are some services where you _cannot_ stop people from enjoying the benefits. Cleaner air for instance. Those are the things that are non-excludable. For those, it makes sense to tax. But since taxation is _similar_ to extortion, those things should be clearly defined and as few as possible. > [@](#): > > Oh, I agree. I’m from California, and I know the mess that happens when people vote on stuff like this. Years of higher gas prices here, by the way, have led to a steady increase in fuel efficiency. If you own a silver Prius you can hardly find it in the parking lot among all the others. But being forced to pay for something is not extortion. If $2 a gallon is acceptable for gas, $5 might be a rip off but is not extortion. If paying 10% in taxes for stuff you like is acceptable, paying 20% might be too high in your opinion, but it isn’t extortion. And I absolutely agree that taxation isn’t extortion. It is _like_ it in many aspects though. Not because it’s my opinion, but because it undeniably involves the use of or the threat of force to make people pay for something which they may or may not see benefit from. Once again, this is justified because taxation isn’t extortion, and taxation is required for many services that benefit everyone through externalities. But it also calls for checks beyond simply voting. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/203 "2013-05-08T11:16:19Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It picks up a bit in chapter 2. You mean Galt invests in real estate? (“…oicks up a lot…”) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/204 "2013-05-08T11:35:19Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > However, you can go down the list of what the federal government is allowed to do, and you will find absolutely nothing that indicates that the Founders intended the government to have that much power. Perhaps you should acquaint yourself with the [Whisky Rebellion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whisky_Rebellion), in which sitting President George Washington led federal troops to enforce the whisky tax. You are not entitled to keep every damn dollar you earn and the government can take the tax at the point of a gun, and it says so, right in the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/205 "2013-05-08T11:38:58Z")
However, an income tax required an amendment. Unfortunately, the way the amendment is written the government can legally demand 110% and throw you in jail for inability to pay. The only check on that is what I’ve said before: politicians hate paying taxes as much as the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/206 "2013-05-08T11:39:17Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Ties to society ie family, friends, job. Contrary to what brow-beaters who subscribe to typical response 3 believe, society is not formed from taxes, but voluntarily. Would you typically emphasize to someone in a low wage job who is being mistreated by his employer, if he complains about this, that he’s free to get a job elsewhere? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/207 "2013-05-08T11:41:06Z")
Extortion is typically a lawless act, and taxes are typically lawful. That’s an important distinction. If some mobsters started setting up rules about their extortion, and actually stuck to them, I’d be tempted to start calling it a tax instead. If they can get away with such a thing, they seem to be in a fairly sovereign position. If the government stopped following rules concerning taxation, and instead just allowed individuals to decide by fiat how much to take from whom, I’d be tempted to stop calling it a tax. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/208 "2013-05-08T12:54:12Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Those local authorities are typically tax funded too though aren’t they? I guess, though I’d call it “tribute” if the situation was thuggish enough. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/209 "2013-05-08T12:56:31Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > But you gotta admit, as evils go, having a society is pretty smooth and mild. Yes, which is why I’m living in one. The alternatives are all worse, just like with taxes. The tyranny of the majority beats the state of nature eight ways to Sunday. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/210 "2013-05-08T12:57:25Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Are you saying countries don’t impose exit costs on people who want to leave? Because they do. Mine doesn’t. They may be a bit overzealous in their demands for proof that you’ve actually left permanently and isn’t on an extended vacation, but other than that the costs and restrictions for leaving are those imposed by whatever country you want to travel to. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/211 "2013-05-08T13:02:32Z")
> [@scratch\_llll](#): > > It’s a bit of a “let me explain why you should have less on your dinner table so I can have another layer of money on my mountain” thing that the poor and most middle class not in the stupid south will never buy into. Excuse me? “The stupid south”? You realize you’re talking about 114 million people, right? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/212 "2013-05-08T14:08:06Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > This is a perfect illustration of Big Brother thinking. > > I don’t know whether you realize it, but what you’re really saying is that you believe that you should have control over how much of my money I get to keep. And you might possibly **allow** me to keep a little more **of my own money** _IF–AND ONLY IF_–I can demonstrate to your satisfaction that I have a legitimate use for my own property. No, actually, that’s not what I’m saying at all, and as I am not employed by government I have practically no say, except in the most abstract and remote way, over how much of your income goes to taxes. What I AM saying is that there are degrees of suffering. I don’t believe you are suffering particularly by having to pay taxes. I’m certainly not. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/213 "2013-05-08T14:14:58Z")
It’s a pretty huge chunk of your income. If you’re not hurting, it’s becuase you don’t know how much is being taken from you. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/214 "2013-05-08T14:21:21Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It’s a pretty huge chunk of your income. If you’re not hurting, it’s becuase you don’t know how much is being taken from you. Like, I think, most people, for me it’s a chunk that I never expected to get nor planned for, so the amount is meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/215 "2013-05-08T14:31:19Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Exit costs are exit costs. You know, I’ve never emigrated from one country to another but I didn’t think you needed the first country’s permission to leave. You’re presumed to have that right as long as another country will have you. It seems to me that’s not similar at all. Not that a bullet in the brain/broken leg/having your stuff stolen was much like a visa form in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/216 "2013-05-08T15:01:51Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You know, I’ve never emigrated from one country to another but I didn’t think you needed the first country’s permission to leave. I have, and I didn’t. Ironically, since I retain citizenship in the original country (the US) I still have to file a tax return there. Ain’t it a bitch? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/217 "2013-05-08T15:18:49Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > “All property is theft” is a stupid and meaningless expression. I agree. So is the phrase “all taxes are extortion”. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/218 "2013-05-08T15:49:55Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This, exactly. And the “product of your labor” routine started by our friend John Locke was racist at its outset (he admitted that it only works if there’s a large pool of natural resources freely available for the taking, but pointed at the Americas as a source of these natural resources, as though nobody living there already had any claim to things like the forests they’d fundamentally improved through regular burnings and the like) and also relied on God as part of its justification (which I can look up if you really need me to). Autonomy over your body absolutely does not lead logically into the sort of private property rights we currently experience, and indeed it could logically lead to something very different, if we assume that control over your body means access to the resources necessary to keep your body running. > > Private property exists only at the whim of Leviathan. It does not exist in a state of nature. It does not exist in an anarchy. Get rid of government, and there’s no such thing as property rights. Of course private property exists in a state of nature. Are you suggesting that private courts wouldn’t recognize private property rights? Why does the state need monopoly over recognition of property rights? Because of its army? > [@Strinka](#): > > If you go into a restaurant, order food, and eat it, you can’t cry “Extortion!” when they give you the bill. If you don’t want to pay the bill, don’t eat the food. > > Personally, I like police departments, public roads, and the like, so I’m happy to help pay for them. Bu if you don’t want to pay for them, then _stop using them_. As long as you’re here, you’re getting their benefits, so either pay your fair share, or leave. > [@Kearsen](#): > > The difference is the government holds no sway over you wanting to leave the country. I find it amusing that the same types of characters who are afraid of increasing “states’ rights” because they imagine it would be impossible to escape local tyranny, suggest I am somehow able to escape global tyranny. Huge inconsistency from that camp. > [@Voyager](#): > > Did the slaveowner allow the slaves to leave whenever they wished to? That is the difference between slavery and a freely agreed upon contract. Are taxes a freely agreed upon contract? I had no idea i could enter into contract simply by 51% of voters (not even 51% of all adult individuals) saying i agreed to a contract. > [@](#): > > Oh, you can’t find a truly free and working society to move to over the whole earth? That might be a clue. A clue that thieves have gained control over most of the inhabitable world? I don’t dispute that. > [@](#): > > BTW, owning oneself might be philosophically valid, but not practically valid. How do you think slavery started, anyway? Slavery started because of the concept of self ownership? Is that a typo? > [@](#): > > Even today, even in the US, there are cases where the rich and powerful enslave the poor and weak. And who stops this? The government you hate so much. You just contradicted yourself in two sentences. If it happens today how has the government stopped it? In fact the government enables it in many situations. To take an example from history, it was the government who refused to acknowledge the slaves’ right to self ownership. > [@](#): > > Without it, and without the taxes to pay for it, even money that you wind up with a slave collar around your neck, and all your cries of “help, I’m being oppressed” are not going to help. I pay the government to defend me now. Why can’t i pay a private firm to protect me in the absence of government? > [@BobLibDem](#): > > Let me get this straight. You’re using the internet, which was largely the creation of government. Which you pay for by working at a job that doubtlessly depends on government infrastructure (roads, bridges, water, air traffic control, etc.). And you do this after consuming foods that can pass government inspection, transported in ways that meet government requirements, and contain nutritional information required by government. And you’re using medications that are often the product of government-subsidized research and are subject to rigorous govermental testing and approval. The fact that you have lived so long is part in fact due to government safety standards for cars, government placed traffic control devices, and government screening of your fellow drivers. > > Now after all of this, you want to claim that it’s extortion to insist that you pay for what you’re getting? You’re like the guy who sits down at a restaurant and after eating is amazed that the food isn’t free. There is a difference between extortion and not allowing someone to steal from the rest of us. So folks who don’t pay for those services are stealing from us? Did you vote for Romney? > [@Voyager](#): > > So, if someone breaks into your house and starts stealing stuff, and does not threaten you, you can’t use any force at all to stop them? Government at its core is most of society uniting to defend ourselves from the worst among us. Defense of property is defense of self. > [@Marley23](#): > > But this is obviously an activity that’s accepted by society: we’re talking about a situation where most of the society wants to do one thing and one member of the society doesn’t want to do it. It seems to me that in your view, it’s now immoral for society to take that action. Society has accepted taxation as legitimate. This makes our society an immoral one. Taxation should be recognized as codified extortion by society and ended. > [@](#): > > The OP is not a moderator. Does there need to be a monopoly on setting debate parameters as well? > [@Crotalus](#): > > I’m beginning to think that you don’t know the meaning of the words you are using. I see on preview that you have invented a meaning for self defense that includes defending property. How do you think that would work out for rental property in another city from where you live or goods in transit between a buyer and a seller? Will we revert to stage coaches with rifle-wielding drivers in your utopia? Ever heard of armored cars? > [@Voyager](#): > > Put a bullet through the head of someone picking your pocket and see how far that defense would get you. Or do you want to go back to hanging thieves? Obviously this is a matter for the (private) courts, but I don’t think a court who hanged thieves would be accepted by society. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > Very well then, setting aside the moral dimension, I would further note that a purely voluntary society is impossible, because there is no way to perfectly isolate the effects we have on each other into yes-or-no voluntary choices. Imagine something as simple as the stench of your new fish cannery spoiling the aromas around my summer home…what voluntary choice did I make that justifies the externality of your stench? THere’s no reason you couldn’t take me to court for the stench just like you would if I was polluting your summer property. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > What if you inherited it from your dad, who inherited it from HIS dad the dictator? How far back may we trace the provenance of property to determine whether it was acquired legitimately? As far back as possible. If no original owner can be found, it is free to be taken. This would be handled by courts. > [@Ravenman](#): > > Are contracts extortion? They are also backed up by the threat of force, kidnapping, or robbery. > > Let’s say I agree to buy a fridge from you, COD. You deliver the fridge. Then I decide that I don’t want to pay, which, as a free individual, I must enjoy the right to change my mind. > > You take me to court and win your case. The court orders me to pay you, but as a free individual, I refuse. I reject the power of the state to intervene in the affairs between me and you. Then the options are that someone either comes to rob me (either of my fridge or my money) or maybe I end up in jail for contempt or something. Either way, that’s a crime against a free person. > > Therefore, contracts are robbery. It doesn’t matter how long contracts have been around through history, as a free person, I should not be compelled to do something I no longer care to do. > > Same thing with taxes. Except that contracts are freely entered without coercion, right? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/219 "2013-05-08T15:51:30Z")
> [@naita](#): > > Mine doesn’t. They may be a bit overzealous in their demands for proof that you’ve actually left permanently and isn’t on an extended vacation, but other than that the costs and restrictions for leaving are those imposed by whatever country you want to travel to. Is your country US? If so, it does. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/220 "2013-05-08T15:52:46Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You know, I’ve never emigrated from one country to another but I didn’t think you needed the first country’s permission to leave. You’re presumed to have that right as long as another country will have you. It seems to me that’s not similar at all. Not that a bullet in the brain/broken leg/having your stuff stolen was much like a visa form in the first place. [US Exit Tax](http://www.isla-offshore.com/second-passport/usa-expats-exit-tax/) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704.md?page=12)