# Taxation is no different than extortion. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704 "2013-05-07T15:08:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/221 "2013-05-08T15:58:38Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Of course private property exists in a state of nature. Are you suggesting that private courts wouldn’t recognize private property rights? Each private court is likely to recognize a different set of private property rights. Which set are the “natural” rights? Anyway what is a private court? Are there examples in the present or past that you have in mind? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/222 "2013-05-08T15:58:40Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Society has accepted taxation as legitimate. This makes our society an immoral one. You’ve said this already. I am trying to point out to you that according to your view, any society becomes immoral as soon as it engages in some activity that one member of the society doesn’t want it to engage in. And any society that lets anyone leave the second they don’t approve of a majority decision isn’t going to last very long. Which part of this do you disagree with? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/223 "2013-05-08T16:00:13Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Like, I think, most people, for me it’s a chunk that I never expected to get nor planned for, so the amount is meaningless. Moreover if everyone kept a lot more of the chunk, then prices would fluctuate (remember the invisible hand?) til the larger chunk seemed to be just about the same size as the smaller one. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/224 "2013-05-08T16:00:52Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [US Exit Tax](http://www.isla-offshore.com/second-passport/usa-expats-exit-tax/) This would appear to apply to be a small minority of taxpayers. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/225 "2013-05-08T16:01:02Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > “I like paying taxes. They buy me civilization.” > > - Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. And civilization gives me things like porn, video games, and anime. Worth every cent I pay in taxes! 😃 > [@TonySinclair](#): > > A general comment, not directed at anyone in this thread: it makes me physically ill to realize that some people think it’s more important for Mitt Romney to have $401 million rather than $400 million in the bank, than it is to use that million to literally make the difference between life and death for 100 people who can’t afford proper food, shelter, or medical care. There are people who are so self-centered that they cannot give up a fraction of their own desires to help others. It makes me sick too > [@adaher](#): > > Yeah, I agree, extortion isn’t right. I think “force” is the term that captures the entire moral problem sufficiently. All exercise of government power is force, and should thus be used only when absolutely necessary. Its necessary for you to pay your taxes, therefore, force is necessary. Debate solved! 😃 > [@adaher](#): > > It’s a pretty huge chunk of your income. If you’re not hurting, it’s becuase you don’t know how much is being taken from you. You don’t miss what you don’t have > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Of course private property exists in a state of nature. Are you suggesting that private courts wouldn’t recognize private property rights? Why does the state need monopoly over recognition of property rights? Because of its army? Good luck getting the invading army to accept your arguments! 😛 Oh, and since we’re talking about the state of nature, there are no private courts, unless they spring ready from the bowels of a rose bush. You don’t get to reap the benefits of a government while still pretending there isn’t one. In the state of nature, its you, probably naked, holding on to your rock and your cave while a mob of other people with sharpened sticks and tell you to leave or die ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/226 "2013-05-08T16:01:29Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You’ve said this already. I am trying to point out to you that according to your view, any society becomes immoral as soon as it engages in some activity that one member of the society doesn’t want it to engage in. And any society that lets anyone leave the second they don’t approve of a majority decision isn’t going to last very long. Which part of this do you disagree with? One could bite the bullet and say that society is inherently evil, even if it is practically necessary.\* I am not sure if that’s what the OP would say though. \*Full disclosure: I am tempted by this view. I’d call it “hopeless anarchism.” ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/227 "2013-05-08T16:04:41Z")
No seriously, what the heck is a “private court?” I take a truck you bought, you take me to the “private court,” and I say “I don’t pay my dues to this court, I pay them to this other court that lets me take anything I want.” How to adjudicate this without resort to force? And if you have to resort to force, what was the point of the “private court?” It sounds to me like it’s just a _public_ court striving for legitimacy through careful use of words, plus guns. In other words, a government. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/228 "2013-05-08T16:05:22Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Extortion is typically a lawless act, and taxes are typically lawful. That’s an important distinction. I disagree since the government is bestowing upon itself the legality of taking money. I’m sure if the mafia had the ability to annoint itself the monopoly money-taker, it would. > [@](#): > > If some mobsters started setting up rules about their extortion, and actually stuck to them, I’d be tempted to start calling it a tax instead. If they can get away with such a thing, they seem to be in a fairly sovereign position. So you are saying the government is a \*more organized \*form of organized crime. Does the form of organization determine whether or not taking money is moral? If so… Are taxes levied by dictators extortion? > [@](#): > > If the government stopped following rules concerning taxation, and instead just allowed individuals to decide by fiat how much to take from whom, I’d be tempted to stop calling it a tax. So a government can decide by fiat how much to take, but an individual cannot. What exact characteristics of a government make its taking legitimate and moral? THat is the heart of the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/229 "2013-05-08T16:05:58Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > THere’s no reason you couldn’t take me to court for the stench just like you would if I was polluting your summer property. Why do you have to obey what any court says, or recognize its authority? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/230 "2013-05-08T16:11:21Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I disagree since the government is bestowing upon itself the legality of taking money. I’m sure if the mafia had the ability to annoint itself the monopoly money-taker, it would. Legality doesn’t come from some kind of annointing. Legality comes from the existence of laws which make an actual difference in how people do things. A tyrant may create “laws” which justify whatever he does post facto, but this is not what I mean by “legal.” What I mean is, rules are created, and people generally stick by them, and when someone doesn’t, people see it as a problem, and solutions are available for that problem. Legality is not automatically justificatory of any action, but it is a minimum standard, at least, for marking a distinction between a true system of government and a mere tyranny. > [@](#): > > Are taxes levied by dictators extortion? If the taxes are levied lawfully (i.e. there are rules about it, which people know and expect to be followed, and instances in which the rules aren’t followed are seen as problems to be solved) then no, I wouldn’t call it extortion. (Note that this is not a justification of dictatorships. No one here claims all taxes are justified, only that lawfulness marks a distinction between taxation and extortion.) ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/231 "2013-05-08T16:15:00Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > What exact characteristics of a government make its taking legitimate and moral? THat is the heart of the matter. This is not the discussion you started with, though. (Perhaps you intended it that way, but this did not come across.) Your original question is a challenge to answer the following argument: “Extortion is wrong, taxes are extortion, therefore taxes are wrong.” I answer that by showing that taxes aren’t extortion. This does _not_ mean I think that taxes’ not being extortion in itself makes them legitimate, and you did not ask about that. You simply asked how taxes are different from extortion. I’ve answered that question. As to the _separate_ question of what marks the distinction between moral or legitimate taxation and immoral or illegitimate taxation, that’s not one I’m prepared to answer right now. But what’s settled is this: Taxation is not the same thing as extortion. Taxation procedes by the application of laws. Extortion does not. This is a real distinction, that makes an actual difference and marks them as being two different kinds of things. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/232 "2013-05-08T16:17:01Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > One could bite the bullet and say that society is inherently evil, even if it is practically necessary.\* I am not sure if that’s what the OP would say though. > > \*Full disclosure: I am tempted by this view. I’d call it “hopeless anarchism.” I don’t think the OP would endorse it, but I’m trying to figure out how that’s possible. Any society where everybody agrees on activity undertaken by the society is either going to last 15 minutes or include no more than two people. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/233 "2013-05-08T16:18:09Z")
If you’re curious, I think there’s no such thing as a legitimate government, but among all the illegitimate governments there are (and I do not expect there ever to be a time when governments do not exist) the best ones are those which consistently act in a lawful manner, and which act in ways best explained by the interests of their people as a whole. You could have, in theory, a complete tyranny which fits this bill. But much more likely, in practical terms, is that any government fitting this bill will be democratic in nature. The form isn’t what makes it a good government though. (“Good” in the sense of “best possible in light of its illegitimacy.”) What makes it good is what it actually does. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/234 "2013-05-08T16:19:21Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I don’t think the OP would endorse it, but I’m trying to figure out how that’s possible. Any society where everybody agrees on activity undertaken by the society is either going to last 15 minutes or include no more than two people. Right; there’s no such thing as a moral society. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/235 "2013-05-08T16:20:37Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Each private court is likely to recognize a different set of private property rights. Which set are the “natural” rights? > > Anyway what is a private court? Are there examples in the present or past that you have in mind? Courts around the world already differ in there treatment of property rights. No need for one universal court. [Private courts in practice.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispute_resolution_organization) > [@](#): > > Many such organizations exist. For instance, Ethan Katsch and Karim Benyekhlef formed the Internet Dispute Resolution Organization which features a tested online dispute resolution interface.[4][5] A perceived advantage of dispute resolution organizations over governmental court systems is that the former can exist in a competitive marketplace in which entrepreneurs on the lookout for profits seek to outdo their rivals in providing good service, low prices, and other features valued by their clientele. However, such organizations would not necessarily need to be for-profit; many dispute resolution organizations today are nonprofit organizations funded largely through grants from charitable foundations as well as local governments with an interest in taking some of the adjudication burden off of their court system. In an anarcho-capitalist society, voluntary communities might provide such grants. > > In the United States, the American Arbitration Association handles about a fourth of the business arbitration in the country. Judgments in arbitrations arising from contractual arbitration agreements are ultimately enforceable in United States Federal Court because of the Federal Arbitration Act.[6] Trade associations handle the vast majority of such disputes. The Council of Better Business Bureaus operates arbitration programs for consumers and encourages businesses to precommit to arbitration of consumer complaints. Major private courts include Judicial Arbitration and Mediation Services Company, Civicourt, and Judicate. Many firms specialize in minitrials. > [@Marley23](#): > > You’ve said this already. I am trying to point out to you that according to your view, any society becomes immoral as soon as it engages in some activity that one member of the society doesn’t want it to engage in. And any society that lets anyone leave the second they don’t approve of a majority decision isn’t going to last very long. Which part of this do you disagree with? I disagree with neither as far as i can tell. It becomes immoral to that person, yes. People should be free to leave whenever they want. The thing is that people’s concept of morality is so close, especially among established societies, that few would leave. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > Good luck getting the invading army to accept your arguments! 😛 Oh, and since we’re talking about the state of nature, there are no private courts, unless they spring ready from the bowels of a rose bush. You don’t get to reap the benefits of a government while still pretending there isn’t one. In the state of nature, its you, probably naked, holding on to your rock and your cave while a mob of other people with sharpened sticks and tell you to leave or die Are you saying the division of labor would not exist in a state of nature? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/236 "2013-05-08T16:20:55Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I don’t think the OP would endorse it, but I’m trying to figure out how that’s possible. Any society where everybody agrees on activity undertaken by the society is either going to last 15 minutes or include no more than two people. Like I said: governments are a _practical_ necessity. For the very reason you point out, you’re never going to be able to do without them. They’re still illegitimate, because it is never legitimate to give up (or force someone to give up) freedom. But it’s basically useless to worry about this. All governments are bad. Okay but we’re going to have to have one. So which of these bad things should we choose? I say the one that procedes by law and works for the interest of the people as a whole. This still won’t be a legitimate government–because many of its members will have some degree of freedom taken away from them–but it will probably be the best we can do. When I’m in the mood to defend “hopeless anarchism” that is. It’s “anarchism” because it thinks there should be no laws. It’s “hopeless” because it thinks that’s never going to happen and if it did it would probably lead to a lot of suffering. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/237 "2013-05-08T16:24:32Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Courts around the world already differ in there treatment of property rights. No need for one universal court. And when there’s a dispute between people who live under the two different court systems, how is this resolved? > [@](#): > > [Private courts in practice.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispute_resolution_organization) I am asking about private criminal courts. The examples discussed in that link wouldn’t seem to be very illuminative, since they are extremely limited in scope, have powers explicitly limited by contracts signed with all participants, and are dealt with voluntarily. Presumably a criminal court would have none of these three aspects. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/238 "2013-05-08T16:29:33Z")
I just want to make sure this is clear, **WillFarnaby** –in these latest posts its become clear to me that you and I agree conceptually. We’re both, basically, anarchists, in that neither of us thinks there is such a thing as a legitimate law. (There may be imaginary situations where such a thing could exist, but in the real world it’s impossible.) Where we disagree is on pragmatics. You think anarchism could actually be lived out. I think any attempt to live out anarchism will collapse. So you are looking for ways to live without government. And I’m looking for ways to figure out how to prevent as much governmental damage as possible. I do not think a libertarian system prevents as much governmental damage as possible–because it leaves things too open to the seizing of real power by just a few people. The best way to prevent governmental damage is to spread the power out (by spreading the wealth, there I said it!) but this does _not_ mean I think a leftist government is “legitimate,” only that it is required for the best practically possible outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/239 "2013-05-08T16:30:54Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > It becomes immoral to that person, yes. People should be free to leave whenever they want. Right. Thus I can’t see the society lasting very long. > [@](#): > > The thing is that people’s concept of morality is so close, especially among established societies, that few would leave. For example in the U.S. there are practically no disagreements over moral issues like religion, criminal punishment, abortion… ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/240 "2013-05-08T16:32:19Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I disagree since the government is bestowing upon itself the legality of taking money. A government “by the people and for the people” has received consent from the people to “take money”- that is, to tax. Not that it’s a perfect system. > [@](#): > > So a government can decide by fiat how much to take, but an individual cannot. What exact characteristics of a government make its taking legitimate and moral? THat is the heart of the matter. Legitimate is one thing- that’s determined by whether the government is “by the people and for the people”. Moral? Who decides if anything is moral? Individuals do… so it’s up to individuals to judge if a specific government’s actions are moral or not- if they even care. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704.md?page=13)