# Taxation is no different than extortion. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704 "2013-05-07T15:08:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/281 "2013-05-09T12:59:24Z")
> [@scratch\_llll](#): > > Having lived here my entire life (except my time in service) I feel I have the right. The poor and lower middle class have voted against their own self interests since before the civil war when it elected leaders willing to sacrifice their lives in order to uphold the right of the rich to own slaves. We still vote in leaders who support the right of the rich to keep more of the pie verses the majority (the majority of the south is poorer than the rest of the nation) to receive the benefit of those taxes therefore the rich have the wool pulled over the eyes of the working poor and middle class. It is stupid to vote against ones self interests, particularly when it is to add just another layer of money to the already wealthy while they themselves struggle to simply have decent housing and enough food. No, you don’t have the right. If it’s stupid to vote against one’s self interests, then it was stupid for white men to vote to grant the franchise to non-white men, and later women. It’s stupid for the non-poor to vote for welfare. It’s stupid for the non-rich to not vote to confiscate property. Government isn’t just an economic calculus of self-interests, it has a moral dimension as well. If you think it’s morally wrong to take more than a third or a half or whatever figure of someone else’s income, even if you would benefit from it, that’s not stupidity, it’s a moral choice. I’d benefit from stealing, but I don’t. Does that make me stupid? > [@](#): > > By now it should be obvious to anyone with a brain why we need taxes. Having lived in the south, it is my advice to give up on convincing those without one. It won’t happen. This is why education is so important. It is also one of the reasons some of the rich do not support education of the masses. I once heard Rush Limbaugh disparage the value of education by saying he never got much from school and look where he is now. How cynical since not everyone can make a good living being the mouthpiece of the wealthy. People in the south, people everywhere, (the OP excepted) know that we need taxes. That doesn’t mean they must agree with your opinion of what the tax burden should be, on whom it should fall, or what the revenue should be used for. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/282 "2013-05-09T13:40:08Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Not by fiat. The government decides through the elections of the people who would take what and how much. If you don’t like it, your recourse is to get more people than your opposition to agree with you and vote that way. That makes it legitimate. As for morality, I don’t believe in it The current government can do whatever they want at whatever time they want. Eventually they may be voted out, but that does not change the arbitrary nature in which they wield power at any given moment. > [@](#): > > That is irrelevant to the point I was trying to make. Don’t get off track on a non-sequitor. I want you to respond to my assertion that without a government, you cannot have private property because what you have will simply be taken from you by more powerful people Right now we pay governmet to protect our property rights. In absence of government we could pay a private protection service to do the exact same thing. A corollary to your assertion is that whenever powerful people can take property from others, private property is not possible. You seem to be neglecting the fact that this is the basic function of government. They take money by force because they are the most powerful group. I have an alternative assertion. With a government, you cannot have private property because what you have will simply be taken from you by a powerful government. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/283 "2013-05-09T13:51:26Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I have an alternative assertion. With a government, you cannot have private property because what you have will simply be taken from you by a powerful government. So why hasn’t this happened then? We have a government and we still have private property. Your assertion is proven false by reality. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/284 "2013-05-09T13:52:17Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The current government can do whatever they want at whatever time they want. Eventually they may be voted out, but that does not change the arbitrary nature in which they wield power at any given moment. While I think you dramatically overstate, I do agree with some kernel of this observation. One of the eye opening aspects of the period of 2000-2008 was just how much of the functioning of the government apparently rested on people following tacit or implicit rules. The understood limits of the executive suddenly became a lot less understood, and that was troubling. > [@](#): > > You seem to be neglecting the fact that this is the basic function of government. They take money by force because they are the most powerful group. No, this is false. You keep sidestepping this, but the government takes money because they are authorized to do so. We, the people, have authorized them to do so, and they do it in the manner prescribed, following due process, and subject to modification by we, the people. > [@](#): > > I have an alternative assertion. With a government, you cannot have private property because what you have will simply be taken from you by a powerful government. My private property **will** simply be taken? It’s never happened to me or my family. I guess I’m just due, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/285 "2013-05-09T14:03:20Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Right now we pay governmet to protect our property rights. That isn’t what the Constitution says. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/286 "2013-05-09T14:05:23Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > TRight now we pay governmet to protect our property rights. In absence of government we could pay a private protection service to do the exact same thing. Except that you could also pay a private invasion service to take other people’s property, and there’d be no appeal to that invasion. Under a government, you don’t get to do that. > [@](#): > > A corollary to your assertion is that whenever powerful people can take property from others, private property is not possible. You seem to be neglecting the fact that this is the basic function of government. They take money by force because they are the most powerful group. Yes, they do–but they also prevent anyone else from doing it, and they give you a voice in how that seizure of property occurs. Without a government, anyone could do that, without your getting a say in how it’s done. So there’d really be no such thing as private property then unless you were personally part of the biggest army, and then other people wouldn’t have property private from you. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/287 "2013-05-09T14:15:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The difference is that the slave owner takes all the labor of the slave, not just part of it. And the only beneficiary of the master-slave relationship is the master - the slave only receives enough food and shelter so he can work (for the benefit of the master). Fundamentally, the government does “own” all of our labor. At any moment they could confiscate our wealth with the stroke of a pen. The only reason they don’t do this is to prevent insurrection. > [@](#): > > The existence of a Constitution guaranteeing certain rights, such as the right to due process before being deprived of property, and to be protected from enslavement. Ultimately, a constitution is a piece of paper. The government’s courts decide which rights we actually have. The thousands of prisoners in our jails haven’t been protected from enslavement any more than the Japanese in WWII. > [@](#): > > Part of the role of government is the enforcement of contracts, especially on those who don’t feel the contracts they enter into should be enforced. Taxes are the fee we pay for this. Taxes can only be called a fee if they are voluntary. They aren’t. > [@](#): > > Because you are benefiting from the actions of the government whether you choose to or not. You drive on the public roads, you are defended by the military, the police arrest people who want to rob you, etc. You’re benefitting from the presence of kleenex whether you choose to or not. Your world would be much snottier without them. Why can’t they legitimately take the fruit of my labor? As an aside, I am put at risk by the military’s silly adventures. The police also arrest those who do me no harm and could conceivably do the same to me. They also arrest those who don’t pay what you call “fees”. > [@Voyager](#): > > Ever pledge allegiance? That was it. If you don’t like it, scram - something the slaves were not allowed to do. One of the stranger arguments I’ve heard. The pledge of allegiance that i recited as a minor bound me contractually to pay taxes? > [@](#): > > Of the thousands of societies that there have been, show me one that lasted more than a few years which implemented your ideas. Ireland for around 1000 years since at least the 7th century is a commonly cited stateless society. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/288 "2013-05-09T14:28:35Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > No, this is false. You keep sidestepping this, but the government takes money because they are authorized to do so. We, the people, have authorized them to do so, and they do it in the manner prescribed, following due process, and subject to modification by we, the people. A person cannot “authorize” the taking of money from another. This would implicate him in the act of theft and make criminals out of the majority. > [@](#): > > My private property **will** simply be taken? It’s never happened to me or my family. I guess I’m just due, huh? Do you earn a paycheck. You better hope they don’t plan a highway throught your living room. > [@Airbeck](#): > > So why hasn’t this happened then? We have a government and we still have private property. Your assertion is proven false by reality. Is it really ours if it can be taken at any moment by fiat? I’d say no, it’s on loan if anything. > [@Ravenman](#): > > That isn’t what the Constitution says. That is one of the common defenses of government offered in this very thread. Where ya been? > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Except that you could also pay a private invasion service to take other people’s property, and there’d be no appeal to that invasion. Under a government, you don’t get to do that.. The vast majority of people are moral. There are a few bad apples who might try to start up a rogue firm, but that would ultimately be a failing business model and the protection firm that most support would easily dismantle this small force. > [@](#): > > Yes, they do–but they also prevent anyone else from doing it, and they give you a voice in how that seizure of property occurs. How quaint. > [@](#): > > Without a government, anyone could do that, without your getting a say in how it’s done. So there’d really be no such thing as private property then unless you were personally part of the biggest army, and then other people wouldn’t have property private from you What makes you think a private protection service couldn’t be arranged in a democratic manner similar to our government? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/289 "2013-05-09T14:29:40Z")
You are correct, ours is not a fully voluntary society. Because a fully voluntary society is impossible. How does that private court system work, again? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/290 "2013-05-09T14:31:36Z")
This really is a tour-de-force of facile and disingenuous argumentation. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/291 "2013-05-09T14:34:44Z")
> [@Molesworth\_2](#): > > As an Australian, I pay taxes so that I’ll never have to go bankrupt due to medical bills like so many Americans do. I pay taxes so that if my employer folds I won’t be thrown to the wolves. So if someone doesn’t pay taxes they should thrown to the wolves or go bankrupt? Why not make taxes voluntary then? > [@](#): > > It amuses me when you American “libertarian” arseholes talk about morality. It really does. I’m thrilled. > [@](#): > > “Freedom” is knowing that if you’re the one unlucky enough to step in front of a bus tomorrow, your fellow citizens will have your back. Once again we find that in Australia, freedom means we don’t have to look both ways. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/292 "2013-05-09T14:35:38Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The vast majority of people are moral. This is not innate. People are not inherently good; Transcendentalism is hokum. Morality works when there are incentives to be moral, and it breaks down when there are incentives to be immoral. It’s a social construct that exists to make society possible, and nothing more. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/293 "2013-05-09T14:41:36Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Ireland for around 1000 years since at least the 7th century is a commonly cited stateless society. Where everybody lived in peace and harmony with each other, respecting the individual’s self-worth and entering into mutually-beneficial free contracts, right? Not really a good cite for your shaky to the point of delusional premise. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/294 "2013-05-09T14:46:27Z")
> [@Molesworth\_2](#): > > As an Australian, I pay taxes so that I’ll never have to go bankrupt due to medical bills like so many Americans do. I pay taxes so that if my employer folds I won’t be thrown to the wolves. No one loses everything due to taxes? They won’t seize your property for failure to pay? See, the nice thing about owing private lenders is that they can’t take your primary residence. The government can, and will. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/295 "2013-05-09T14:49:28Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > This really is a tour-de-force of facile and disingenuous argumentation. How so? > [@Human\_Action](#): > > You are correct, ours is not a fully voluntary society. Because a fully voluntary society is impossible. How does that private court system work, again? I don’t have the time to go into it but if you’re genuinely interested there’s an [essay](http://mises.org/books/chaostheory.pdf)by economist Bob Murphy that deals with the fundamentals in relatively short order. In summary, one would purchase a general insurance. This would mean that the insurer vouched for your trustworthiness. An individual or business without such insurance would likely have a hard time finding folks willing to engage with that person. When signing such insurance you would likely agree to submit to arbitration with some established court. If you failed to submit, you would be dropped from your insurance and find it hard to make a living, as you would now be a sort of outcast with no protection. In Ireland, for many years, your kinship group served as a type of insurance and they picked up the tab in the event you could not pay your debts. Also if you were killed they would be entitled to a large sum. If you continually defaulted on your debts you would be disowned and without the protection of your kinship group. Without this protection, it would be acceptable to kill you, so it basically became a banishment sentence to be disowned by your kinship group. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/296 "2013-05-09T14:52:57Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > This is not innate. People are not inherently good; Transcendentalism is hokum. Morality works when there are incentives to be moral, and it breaks down when there are incentives to be immoral. It’s a social construct that exists to make society possible, and nothing more. I made no claim as to \*why \*most people are moral because it matters not. There would even more incentives to be moral in absence of government. Government acts immorally, thereby undermining society’s morals. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/297 "2013-05-09T15:07:30Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, it has nothing to do with zero-sums.No, you are confusing value with price. If you are paying $1 but it costs 1.25 overall, then someone else has to come up with .25 and you are being subsidized. > Correct. Everyone receives the non-monetary value whether they pay taxes or not. So suppose A, B, and C decide they need a road. Taxes are taken such that A pays $200, B pays $300 and C pays $500. Building the road helps A get to work where he earns $1000, B uses the road to get to the hospital and save his life, value unknown, and C uses the road to get his fruit to market and earn $3,000. Who in this scenario is not getting his money worth out of the taxes? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/298 "2013-05-09T15:13:02Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Ireland for around 1000 years since at least the 7th century is a commonly cited stateless society. Is this, finally, our long-awaited example of Farnabytopia? Interesting. To a first approximation, the political system of medieval Ireland was competing warlords – not unlike the stateless Somalia example. One difference is that the Christian church provided some stability in Ireland. It raised money via simony more than via taxation – simony isn’t “extortion”? ---
**Author:** ![madetea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/94ad74/32.png) [@madetea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madetea)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/299 "2013-05-09T15:15:03Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Ireland for around 1000 years since at least the 7th century is a commonly cited stateless society. Even if government did nothing else, defense is one area that is one thing that shouldn’t be left to private individuals. If a neighboring country decides that they are going to invade, an army funded by taxes is going to be more useful in securing individual liberty than individual being left to their own devices. You may wish to read what happened to the great Irish libertarian utopia after the 7th century to find out what happened next. When a land with no effective centralized army meets an aggressive, expansionist neighbor, you may find that the inhabitants of the former would think that the “extortion” of paying taxes to maintain a defense force may increase individual liberty after all. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/300 "2013-05-09T15:16:54Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I don’t have the time to go into it but if you’re genuinely interested there’s an [essay](http://mises.org/books/chaostheory.pdf)by economist Bob Murphy that deals with the fundamentals in relatively short order. > > In summary, one would purchase a general insurance. This would mean that the insurer vouched for your trustworthiness. An individual or business without such insurance would likely have a hard time finding folks willing to engage with that person. When signing such insurance you would likely agree to submit to arbitration with some established court. If you failed to submit, you would be dropped from your insurance and find it hard to make a living, as you would now be a sort of outcast with no protection. > > In Ireland, for many years, your kinship group served as a type of insurance and they picked up the tab in the event you could not pay your debts. Also if you were killed they would be entitled to a large sum. If you continually defaulted on your debts you would be disowned and without the protection of your kinship group. Without this protection, it would be acceptable to kill you, so it basically became a banishment sentence to be disowned by your kinship group. Bah, who needs insurance? I’ll just steal whatever I need, and kill you if you try to stop me. Better still, I’ll get a whole band of like-minded fellows together to do it. I never signed anything saying you can take me to court for stealing or harm me in any way. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I made no claim as to _why_ most people are moral because it matters not. There would even more incentives to be moral in absence of government. Government acts immorally, thereby undermining society’s morals. It matters if you’re changing the incentives that underlie it. Yes, there would be a morality in the absence of government, but it would be different, and to my sensibilities inferior. What you do in such a society is much more closely linked to what you can get away with than what’s right. If you’re backed by a powerful clan or faction, there are no disincentives to evil. Yes, that can be true of government as well, but democratic government is accountable to others in a way that clans are not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704.md?page=16)