# Taxation is no different than extortion. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704 "2013-05-07T15:08:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/301 "2013-05-09T15:16:46Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > In summary, one would purchase a general insurance. This would mean that the insurer vouched for your trustworthiness. An individual or business without such insurance would likely have a hard time finding folks willing to engage with that person. When signing such insurance you would likely agree to submit to arbitration with some established court. But the crucial question you haven’t addressed (though you’ve been asked several times) is what you think will happen when two different individuals have agreed to submit to arbitration with two different courts? > [@](#): > > In Ireland, for many years, your kinship group served as a type of insurance and they picked up the tab in the event you could not pay your debts. Also if you were killed they would be entitled to a large sum. If you continually defaulted on your debts you would be disowned and without the protection of your kinship group. Without this protection, it would be acceptable to kill you, so it basically became a banishment sentence to be disowned by your kinship group. So you better do what your kinship group says or else. Sounds quite free to me. You were asked above–why should we be happy to emulate Ireland from 700 to 1700 AD? My impression is that this was not a particularly happy time or place to be. Do you have concrete information that says otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/302 "2013-05-09T15:20:09Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Fundamentally, the government does “own” all of our labor. At any moment they could confiscate our wealth with the stroke of a pen. The only reason they don’t do this is to prevent insurrection. Not sure why you put “own” in quotation marks. Do you think the government owns our labor or not? (Sans quotation marks.) ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/303 "2013-05-09T15:31:20Z")
> [@madetea](#): > > Even if government did nothing else, defense is one area that is one thing that shouldn’t be left to private individuals. If a neighboring country decides that they are going to invade, an army funded by taxes is going to be more useful in securing individual liberty than individual being left to their own devices. > > You may wish to read what happened to the great Irish libertarian utopia after the 7th century to find out what happened next. When a land with no effective centralized army meets an aggressive, expansionist neighbor, you may find that the inhabitants of the former would think that the “extortion” of paying taxes to maintain a defense force may increase individual liberty after all. The United States is under threat of invasion from whom, exactly? > [@septimus](#): > > Is this, finally, our long-awaited example of Farnabytopia? Interesting. To a first approximation, the political system of medieval Ireland was competing warlords – not unlike the stateless Somalia example. One difference is that the Christian church provided some stability in Ireland. It raised money via simony more than via taxation – simony isn’t “extortion”? It’s voluntary, right? My question is what about the creation of a central state in Ireland would have created more happiness? > [@Frylock](#): > > But the crucial question you haven’t addressed (though you’ve been asked several times) is what you think will happen when two different individuals have agreed to submit to arbitration with two different courts? Their respective insurance companies would likely have some kind of agreement on which court to submit to. > [@](#): > > So you better do what your kinship group says or else. Sounds quite free to me. Let me be clear: I am not advocating a return to the society of medieval Ireland. Just like you’re not advocating a return to Hitler’s Germany because you favor democratic government. > [@](#): > > You were asked above–why should we be happy to emulate Ireland from 700 to 1700 AD? My impression is that this was not a particularly happy time or place to be. Do you have concrete information that says otherwise? Would the creation of a central government in Ireland have brought happiness through the end or exacerbated conflicts between factions? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/304 "2013-05-09T15:35:34Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Bah, who needs insurance? I’ll just steal whatever I need, and kill you if you try to stop me. Better still, I’ll get a whole band of like-minded fellows together to do it. I never signed anything saying you can take me to court for stealing or harm me in any way. You are forgetting that I, and my fellow citizens, have contracted a protection service that would easily destroy your minor force and likely kill you. > [@](#): > > It matters if you’re changing the incentives that underlie it. Yes, there would be a morality in the absence of government, but it would be different, and to my sensibilities inferior. What you do in such a society is much more closely linked to what you can get away with than what’s right. If you’re backed by a powerful clan or faction, there are no disincentives to evil. Yes, that can be true of government as well, but democratic government is accountable to others in a way that clans are not. You’re saying government improves societal morality by stealing, kidnapping, invading, enslaving, and extorting. Somehow i don’t believe that. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/305 "2013-05-09T15:37:51Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > In summary, one would purchase a general insurance. This would mean that the insurer vouched for your trustworthiness. An individual or business without such insurance would likely have a hard time finding folks willing to engage with that person. Except businesses without insurance will have lower prices because they don’t have to pay premiums. Some folks might be willing to pay extra to deal with a business that’s been certified as trustworthy, but a lot more will pick the cheaper option, particularly for small transactions where they can afford to personally assume the risk. One of the things that I find amusing about libertarian arguments is how disconnected they are from how business actually works. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/306 "2013-05-09T15:38:51Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You are forgetting that I, and my fellow citizens, have contracted a protection service that would easily destroy your minor force and likely kill you. Exactly. It’s called the U.S. Army. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/307 "2013-05-09T15:39:25Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You are forgetting that I, and my fellow citizens, have contracted a protection service that would easily destroy your minor force and likely kill you. Then it’s not a voluntary society, is it? I never agreed to let you kill me for stealing or attacking you. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You’re saying government improves societal morality by stealing, kidnapping, invading, enslaving, and extorting. Somehow i don’t believe that. Not really, I’m saying that the morality of the governors is proportional to their accountability to the governed. With a functioning democracy, it’s quite high. When the de facto government is the strongest clan or warlord, it’s quite low. History bears me out on the point, the abuses of the aristocracy are quite well documented. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/309 "2013-05-09T15:44:08Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > This really is a tour-de-force of facile and disingenuous argumentation. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > How so? Because it began with “I have pre-foiled you all with my numbered strawmen!!! HA HA!”, and it has been little better than simple gainsay since then. ---
**Author:** ![Molesworth\_2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9dc877/32.png) [@Molesworth\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Molesworth_2)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/310 "2013-05-09T15:45:10Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Once again we find that in Australia, freedom means we don’t have to look both ways. Oh, just piss off, already. That’s not what I meant and you know it. You’re just as likely to fall victim to MS or Alzheimer’s as I am. It’s not about “looking both ways”, it’s about caring for your fellow citizens who’ve drawn the short straw. Like any decent human being would do. You pricks who don’t accept that you’re just as likely as anyone else to fall victim to the vagaries of misfortune truly astound me. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/311 "2013-05-09T16:02:29Z")
> [@Molesworth\_2](#): > > Oh, just piss off, already. > > That’s not what I meant and you know it. > > You’re just as likely to fall victim to MS or Alzheimer’s as I am. It’s not about “looking both ways”, it’s about caring for your fellow citizens who’ve drawn the short straw. Like any decent human being would do. > > You pricks who don’t accept that you’re just as likely as anyone else to fall victim to the vagaries of misfortune truly astound me. This is out of line for Great Debates. You can’t insult other posters here. The “arseholes” comment was also inappropriate. You can make negative comments about ideas, but once you turn it into ‘you libertarian arseholes’ or ‘you pricks,’ it’s an insult that belongs only in the Pit. Don’t do this again. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/312 "2013-05-09T16:05:44Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > It’s voluntary, right? Don’t pay taxes, you go to jail. Don’t pay simony, you go to Hell. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > My question is what about the creation of a central state in Ireland would have created more happiness? Did you know subjects of a warlord are often impressed into military service? Forcing someone to pay taxes is extortion; forcing someone to risk life and limb is benevolence? Or is your thinking that in a fractured feudal state without “central” government taxes or impressment can be avoided by fleeing to the province of a different warlord? In any event, I do give you credit for finally identifying an example Farnabytopia for us to ponder. I felt cheated when your disciple, Idaho-something, could only come up with, as his example, U.S.A. before civil rights and aviation regulation. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/313 "2013-05-09T16:07:24Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I don’t have the time to go into it but if you’re genuinely interested there’s an [essay](http://mises.org/books/chaostheory.pdf)by economist Bob Murphy that deals with the fundamentals in relatively short order. > > In summary, one would purchase a general insurance. This would mean that the insurer vouched for your trustworthiness. An individual or business without such insurance would likely have a hard time finding folks willing to engage with that person. When signing such insurance you would likely agree to submit to arbitration with some established court. If you failed to submit, you would be dropped from your insurance and find it hard to make a living, as you would now be a sort of outcast with no protection. > > In Ireland, for many years, your kinship group served as a type of insurance and they picked up the tab in the event you could not pay your debts. Also if you were killed they would be entitled to a large sum. If you continually defaulted on your debts you would be disowned and without the protection of your kinship group. Without this protection, it would be acceptable to kill you, so it basically became a banishment sentence to be disowned by your kinship group. Ostracism was indeed the main form of punishment primitive tribes used to punish repeat wrongdoers. Jared Diamond talks about this in his recent book. It is a fearsome threat, as in this form of society being cut off from your clan is very likely a death sentence. I’m not sure why anyone would prefer to live in a stone age world (Or 7th century Ireland) than the modern world. I don’t think a primitive existence would even work with a world of 7 billion people. But you could move to the rainforest and give it a shot, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/314 "2013-05-09T16:27:12Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Ireland for around 1000 years since at least the 7th century is a commonly cited stateless society. Err…just so I’m clear, are you suggesting that Ireland in, say, the 800s was a society in which property rights (i.e., one’s ability to keep and use one’s property without outside interference unless one engaged in a trade free from force or fraud) were **stronger** than they are in a modern state? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/315 "2013-05-09T16:27:17Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > So suppose A, B, and C decide they need a road. Taxes are taken such that A pays $200, B pays $300 and C pays $500. > > Building the road helps A get to work where he earns $1000, B uses the road to get to the hospital and save his life, value unknown, and C uses the road to get his fruit to market and earn $3,000. > > Who in this scenario is not getting his money worth out of the taxes? We are not talking about who thinks he is getting his money’s worth, and who is not. If it costs $1000 to build a road, and there are three taxpayers, if any of the three pay less than $333.33 1/3, then the others have to pay more, no matter how much they value being able to use the road. In order to allocate cost by how much they use the road, you would charge a usage fee. That’s different from a progressive tax system. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/316 "2013-05-09T16:30:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > We are not talking about who thinks he is getting his money’s worth, and who is not. If it costs $1000 to build a road, and there are three taxpayers, if any of the three pay less than $333.33 1/3, then the others have to pay more, no matter how much they value being able to use the road. In order to allocate cost by how much they use the road, you would charge a usage fee. That’s different from a progressive tax system. I think we’re talking past each other. I agree that people may have to pay more than an equal share under a progressive system, but then I also think that people are able to keep more than an equal share under a private property system, so that doesn’t concern me. So if the question is, are all **costs** apportioned equally, I agree that they’re not. But if it’s a question of **value** , not **cost** , you’re dealing with what I and **Buck** are discussing. And a third question is efficiency: it’s not always efficient to apportion costs equally. Nor is it necessarily fair. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/317 "2013-05-09T16:36:22Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > A person cannot “authorize” the taking of money from another. This would implicate him in the act of theft and make criminals out of the majority. Nonsense. Money is itself a government invention. It’s how the government engages in the convenient fiction of private property rights–as I said, an ingenious and highly useful fiction, but not an end to itself. If you want to play the game of private property, you have to follow the rules. > [@](#): > > Do you earn a paycheck. You better hope they don’t plan a highway throught your living room. Of course. My chance of death by government under a modern state are infinitesimal compared to my chances of death by neighbor under a stateless society. > [@](#): > > Is it really ours if it can be taken at any moment by fiat? I’d say no, it’s on loan if anything. Precisely true. Property is a fiction invented by government. Without it, your property belongs to the person who shoots best. > [@](#): > > The vast majority of people are moral. There are a few bad apples who might try to start up a rogue firm, but that would ultimately be a failing business model and the protection firm that most support would easily dismantle this small force. > > How quaint. I couldn’t have said it better myself: how quaint. Find me a stateless society with no strong government to appeal to (to exclude some hippie commune somewhere) in which there aren’t bands of warlords and gangs who terrorize the populace. The vast majority of people in history cared very little for human life; its sanctity, and the dignity of the individual, are fairly recent concepts that have gone hand in hand with the rise of the modern state. In stateless societies the people who spend all their time practicing to kill have one good way to earn a living: killing people who spend their time figuring out how to do something useful. This is an historical truth, not conjecture. > [@](#): > > What makes you think a private protection service couldn’t be arranged in a democratic manner similar to our government? Two things: 1. I’ve never seen a proposal for it; and 2. I can’t imagine how it’d possibly work. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/318 "2013-05-09T16:36:31Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Their respective insurance companies would likely have some kind of agreement on which court to submit to. A strong claim and a dubious one. On what basis do you draw the conclusion that they will “likely” have some kind of agreement? Why do you think it’s likely rather than unlikely? And even if it’s likely, will there not be exceptions? And even if it’s likely, the unlikely case may come about. What do you propose will happen in such a case? > [@](#): > > Let me be clear: I am not advocating a return to the society of medieval Ireland. Just like you’re not advocating a return to Hitler’s Germany because you favor democratic government. Let you be clear? By all means, please be clear! If you’re not advocating a return to the society of medieval Ireland, why are you pointing to that society and describing it for us? > [@](#): > > Would the creation of a central government in Ireland have brought happiness through the end or exacerbated conflicts between factions? No clue. ---
**Author:** ![Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambrosio_Spinola)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/319 "2013-05-09T16:36:52Z")
The other thing about kinship groups is that “sharing” isn’t really optional. This has advantages, obviously, but if you’ve got excess resources then you’ll be expected to spread them around, whether or not it’s deserved. There are richer and poorer members of the clan, but there’s only so much intra-clan inequality that human social groups are willing to tolerate. I’d imagine that compulsory gift-giving in these sort of societies is probably a greater burden than modern taxation, plus you also have the burden of conforming to whatever social norms your clan has and be personally responsible for attendance in clan fights. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/320 "2013-05-09T16:43:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > We are not talking about who thinks he is getting his money’s worth, and who is not. If it costs $1000 to build a road, and there are three taxpayers, if any of the three pay less than $333.33 1/3, then the others have to pay more, no matter how much they value being able to use the road. In order to allocate cost by how much they use the road, you would charge a usage fee. That’s different from a progressive tax system. > > Regards, > Shodan Usage fees–tolls–are a method of funding roads. But people can benefit from roads even if they never drive on them. Their food may be delivered on that road, as might other goods. Their customers might use that road to get to their businesses, etc. So you can’t really evaluate how valuable a road is to someone by seeing how often they drive it. Evaluating exactly how much benefit someone is getting out of a road (hospital school etc) is an impossible task. A tax system–imperfect as it is–is probably the least bad way to allocate funds for public goods. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/321 "2013-05-09T16:48:05Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Fundamentally, the government does “own” all of our labor. At any moment they could confiscate our wealth with the stroke of a pen. The only reason they don’t do this is to prevent insurrection. The rantings of the militias sound sane compared to this. No one in Washington - Republican or Democrat - respects the rule of law? > [@](#): > > Ultimately, a constitution is a piece of paper. The government’s courts decide which rights we actually have. The thousands of prisoners in our jails haven’t been protected from enslavement any more than the Japanese in WWII. Ever been on a jury? If you have, you’d understand that a jail term is not enslavement. Even the Japanese were not enslaved - interned improperly, yes, but that wrong was justified by an actual national emergency. > [@](#): > > One of the stranger arguments I’ve heard. The pledge of allegiance that i recited as a minor bound me contractually to pay taxes? The pledge is acknowledgement of your citizenship and your participation in society. We who were born here are born into citizenship, but we don’t have to stay citizens if we don’t want to. Do you refuse to say the pledge? With your attitude, you should. > [@](#): > > Ireland for around 1000 years since at least the 7th century is a commonly cited stateless society. No local taxes or their equivalents to local nobility? Sure Ireland as a whole might not have been a state, but neither was classical Greece. Doesn’t help your case one bit. I don’t know much about Irish history, but this section from Wikipedia doesn’t seem to support your contention > [@](#): > > From around AD 800, more than a century of Viking invasions wrought havoc upon the monastic culture and on the island’s various regional dynasties, yet both of these institutions proved strong enough to survive and assimilate the invaders. The coming of Cambro-Norman mercenaries under Richard de Clare, 2nd Earl of Pembroke, nicknamed Strongbow, in 1169 marked the beginning of more than 700 years of direct English, and, later, British involvement in Ireland. In 1177, Prince John Lackland was made Lord of Ireland by his father Henry II of England at the Council of Oxford.[1] The Crown did not attempt to assert full control of the island until after Henry VIII’s repudiation of papal authority over the Church in England and subsequent English Reformation, which failed in Ireland. Questions over the loyalty of Irish vassals provided the initial impetus for a series of Irish military campaigns between 1534 and 1691. This period was marked by a Crown policy of plantation, involving the arrival of thousands of English and Scottish Protestant settlers, and the consequent displacement of the pre-plantation Catholic landholders. As the military and political defeat of Gaelic Ireland became more pronounced in the early seventeenth century, sectarian conflict became a recurrent theme in Irish history. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704.md?page=17)