# Taxation is no different than extortion. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704 "2013-05-07T15:08:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/322 "2013-05-09T16:50:30Z")
One more note: some folks have suggested that the late 19th century (the gilded age) of the US might be a model for minimal taxation. Well, yes, there wasn’t much taxation, and there was a lot of infrastructure development. So where did those resources for infrastructure development come from? Massive seizures of property from Native Americans, coupled with massive giveaways to railroad corporations. I don’t exactly think we should take this as a model for a minimal-tax modern society either. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/323 "2013-05-09T16:50:45Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Err…just so I’m clear, are you suggesting that Ireland in, say, the 800s was a society in which property rights (i.e., one’s ability to keep and use one’s property without outside interference unless one engaged in a trade free from force or fraud) were **stronger** than they are in a modern state? If one’s clan leader lost a key battle, one might lose property, but that may just translate, in OP’s hyper-libertarian model, to picking the wrong insurance company or private security force. In the absence of military defeat, one’s property might be guaranteed by the clan leader, so long as one kept one’s commitments to feed serfs, provide military service, etc. (“Voluntary” commitments in OP’s diction, I guess, rather than extortion, since one could forfeit the property rather than be jailed.) I have a sort of nostalgia for “benevolent” feudalism. I live in Asia in recently cleared jungle land and have heard stories about a “Tiger” who served this region fifty years ago – when it was too remote to be influenced by central government – as an (allegedly Robin Hood-like) warlord, protecting people’s property rights. (Of course, “property rights” were based on first arrival, lots were sized to have the radius of riflefire.) Nostalgic as one might be for such a system, it’s difficult to imagine it applied to a modern technological economy. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/324 "2013-05-09T16:57:52Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The current government can do whatever they want at whatever time they want. Eventually they may be voted out, but that does not change the arbitrary nature in which they wield power at any given moment. At a certain point, you will just have to realize that you are wrong and that reality does not conform to your beliefs. We’ve passed that moment eons ago, by the way. The current government has actually been so deferential to its opponents that the only arbitrary thing they’ve done is argue amongst themselves how much deference they should show the opposition. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Right now we pay governmet to protect our property rights. In absence of government we could pay a private protection service to do the exact same thing. So your assertion (LOL!) is that the richer you are, the more paramilitary types you can hire to protect your money bin? Tell me, what happens to people cannot pay? If I wanted to kill you, and I had more and better equipped men, does that make me right? > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > A corollary to your assertion is that whenever powerful people can take property from others, private property is not possible. You seem to be neglecting the fact that this is the basic function of government. They take money by force because they are the most powerful group. Ultimately, we vote in those who make up the government, and everyone’s vote counts for the same amount. That’s is why they SHOULD be the most powerful group, because they are behold to no one except the will of the people. In your fantasy world, what happens to forces that compete and become more powerful than other groups? Can we replace them through voting? Through pitchforks and torches? Through begging for our lives at the point of a barrel? The beauty about government is that you can change it any time you get more people to agree with you. If you don’t like the management at, for example, Blackwater (or Xe), what can you do? What can you do if they start taking stuff from you because your enemies hired them and there are no groups more powerful? > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I have an alternative assertion. With a government, you cannot have private property because what you have will simply be taken from you by a powerful government. How does that differ from any time you have a group more powerful than you? > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Fundamentally, the government does “own” all of our labor. At any moment they could confiscate our wealth with the stroke of a pen. The only reason they don’t do this is to prevent insurrection. No they cannot. That is illegal. They can get sued, and lose. Now, if what you mean is that government has the physical _ **force** _ capable of taking away your wealth, then to that I would say: so does everyone else stronger than you. And you know who will protect you from that? The government! > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Ultimately, a constitution is a piece of paper. The government’s courts decide which rights we actually have. The thousands of prisoners in our jails haven’t been protected from enslavement any more than the Japanese in WWII. The constitution is backed by the force the government employs. The system employs millions of people. It is impossible for them to tailor all of that specifically to have a grudge against you. Where the courts decide which rights you have, you also have the right to appeal, and you have different people with different ideologies sitting in those other courts. If you lose them ALL, then you know what? You probably deserve whatever it is they are doing to you. As for what happened to the Japanese, what makes you think private courts won’t do that either? > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Taxes can only be called a fee if they are voluntary. They aren’t. You can leave the country. With a small fee of course 😉 > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You’re benefitting from the presence of kleenex whether you choose to or not. Your world would be much snottier without them. Why can’t they legitimately take the fruit of my labor? Don’t give the Kleenex lobby any more power! If they want to wipe you from the face of the earth, they can. Unless of course its raining that day and the tissues get soggy > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > As an aside, I am put at risk by the military’s silly adventures. The police also arrest those who do me no harm and could conceivably do the same to me. They also arrest those who don’t pay what you call “fees”. And as another aside(!!!) they still generally only arrest those who mean to do you harm! So you are benefiting, believe it or not! Thus they have a right to your taxes > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > A person cannot “authorize” the taking of money from another. This would implicate him in the act of theft and make criminals out of the majority. Of course they can, if it is legitimate. Our system of laws that you have every right to change and submit input on makes it legitimate. If you don’t like it, you are free to vote in those who believe as you do > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Do you earn a paycheck. You better hope they don’t plan a highway throught your living room. And if they do, there is a system of courts that you can appeal the decision to, and at the same time, you can still vote to repeal laws or elect legislators that will protect you. Tell me again how that would work in a private court where the other guy has more weapons than you do? > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Is it really ours if it can be taken at any moment by fiat? I’d say no, it’s on loan if anything. Fiat meaning by the legal system of laws that you agree to by living in this country? Yeah, I have no problems with them exercising their power to do that, why should you? Just because it inconveniences you? What makes you so special? Besides, if something is “on loan” to you permanently, its yours. Just because you think someone might take it in the future doesn’t mean its not yours until that happens, which it may never > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The vast majority of people are moral. Since the government is made of people, then by definition, government is moral the vast majority of the time. It is right and proper that we pay it taxes so that it can protect us > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > There are a few bad apples who might try to start up a rogue firm, but that would ultimately be a failing business model and the protection firm that most support would easily dismantle this small force. How were bad apples dealt with in the past? Did a small force of paramilitary types dismantle Standard Oil? Was a shootout at the AT&T offices what disbanded it? And if those small forces wanted to make a bigger force and enforce their beliefs on everybody, what will stop them? Another small force? So we’d be in constant anarchy everyday and companies would crash and burn all the time? Sounds great! Where do I sign up! 😛 > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > What makes you think a private protection service couldn’t be arranged in a democratic manner similar to our government? So…they’d be The Government then? Hell, we can’t have that! They must be dismantled! **Will** , I must say, you are one of the most hilarious posters we’ve ever had on this board! Thanks for making my day with your poetic interpretation of such an improbable and irrational world! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/325 "2013-05-09T16:58:51Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Would the creation of a central government in Ireland have brought happiness through the end or exacerbated conflicts between factions? Wait - are you saying that state and local taxes are fine, but that federal taxes are extortion? As for protection, you are making the classic libertarian assumption that you are smarter or richer than everyone else. Even if you can afford to hire a guard, some rich person or set of rich persons will be able to afford more guards to make themselves richer by taking all your stuff. And poor people who can’t afford guards will quickly lose what little they have. But that is fine with you, right? ---
**Author:** ![madetea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/94ad74/32.png) [@madetea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madetea)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/326 "2013-05-09T17:18:09Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The United States is under threat of invasion from whom, exactly? Ah, so your tax free vision is only only a system that could be implemented in the United States? What a shame, I was hoping that us Irish could free ourselves from the bondage of taxation and return to our 7th century golden age. So taxes should only be abolished in the United States because, uniquely, you have no need for armed forces? Should they abolish taxes (and defense forces) in Canada? How about South Korea? In any case, why do you think that the United States is under no threat of invasion? Could it possibly be due to the power of the US armed forces, using funds that were extorted from people like yourself? ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/327 "2013-05-09T19:11:18Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The United States is under threat of invasion from whom, exactly? Go to your nearest Indian reservation and ask the residents about the threat of invasion. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/328 "2013-05-09T19:39:37Z")
> [@Molesworth\_2](#): > > Oh, just piss off, already. > > That’s not what I meant and you know it. > > You’re just as likely to fall victim to MS or Alzheimer’s as I am. It’s not about “looking both ways”, it’s about caring for your fellow citizens who’ve drawn the short straw. Like any decent human being would do. > > You pricks who don’t accept that you’re just as likely as anyone else to fall victim to the vagaries of misfortune truly astound me. In your ideal world, caring for your fellow citizen is mandated by men with tanks. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > Then it’s not a voluntary society, is it? I never agreed to let you kill me for stealing or attacking you. I have mentioned the right to self defense. We are talking in circles now. > [@](#): > > Not really, I’m saying that the morality of the governors is proportional to their accountability to the governed. With a functioning democracy, it’s quite high. When the de facto government is the strongest clan or warlord, it’s quite low. History bears me out on the point, the abuses of the aristocracy are quite well documented. You mention that morality is low when “the de facto government is the strongest clan or warlord”, yet you don’t realize that this is the case with a democratic government as well. The only difference is they obtain power by manipulating public perception instead of coming through with brute force. The oligopoly that controls government at any given time is indeed the strongest clan, with the strongest army. > [@septimus](#): > > Don’t pay taxes, you go to jail. > Don’t pay simony, you go to Hell. I’ll take that chance. > [@](#): > > Did you know subjects of a warlord are often impressed into military service? Forcing someone to pay taxes is extortion; forcing someone to risk life and limb is benevolence? Or is your thinking that in a fractured feudal state without “central” government taxes or impressment can be avoided by fleeing to the province of a different warlord? Listen. You’re comparing a stateless society from 1000 years ago to a state controlled society from today. How about to compare a stateless society from 1000 years ago to a state controlled society from 1000 years ago. > [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Ostracism was indeed the main form of punishment primitive tribes used to punish repeat wrongdoers. Jared Diamond talks about this in his recent book. It is a fearsome threat, as in this form of society being cut off from your clan is very likely a death sentence. This leads me to another benefit of a stateless society. There would be more of an incentive for rehabilitation of repeat wrongdoers because there is an insurance company responsible for damages he creates. If they can effectively rehabilitate the infractor, they will continue to see revenue. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Err…just so I’m clear, are you suggesting that Ireland in, say, the 800s was a society in which property rights (i.e., one’s ability to keep and use one’s property without outside interference unless one engaged in a trade free from force or fraud) were **stronger** than they are in a modern state? I’m not too familiar with it actually, as I said, i’ve just seen it cited often. I intend to look into the matter further. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Nonsense. Money is itself a government invention. Gonna have to cut you off right there. BS. > [@](#): > > Of course. My chance of death by government under a modern state are infinitesimal compared to my chances of death by neighbor under a stateless society. You bemoan the lack of modern examples of a stateless society, yet you’re so certain you will be killed instantly in one. Interesting. > [@](#): > > Precisely true. Property is a fiction invented by government. Without it, your property belongs to the person who shoots best. Nope. There was property long before government. The monkey’s banana from an earlier poster’s example comes to mind. In fact, since production must proceed predation, there would be no government if there were no property. > [@](#): > > The vast majority of people in history cared very little for human life; its sanctity, and the dignity of the individual, are fairly recent concepts that have gone hand in hand with the rise of the modern state. You’re all switched up. The premodern state was terrible until these ideas started gaining prominence. > [@](#): > > In stateless societies the people who spend all their time practicing to kill have one good way to earn a living: killing people who spend their time figuring out how to do something useful. This is an historical truth, not conjecture. BS. A society of warrior only would quickly destroy any productive peoples and die because they had nothing left to live off of. > [@](#): > > Two things: > > 1. I’ve never seen a proposal for it; and > 2. I can’t imagine how it’d possibly work. Open your mind. > [@Voyager](#): > > Wait - are you saying that state and local taxes are fine, but that federal taxes are extortion? > > As for protection, you are making the classic libertarian assumption that you are smarter or richer than everyone else. Even if you can afford to hire a guard, some rich person or set of rich persons will be able to afford more guards to make themselves richer by taking all your stuff. And poor people who can’t afford guards will quickly lose what little they have. But that is fine with you, right? All taxes are extortion, but local taxes are less objectionable, yes. I’d still be against those, though. You are making the classic authoritarian strawman. Not once have I even hinted at some superiority complex. These rich people would be easily outnumbered and outfunded by a protection service patronized by less well off and more numerous folks. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/329 "2013-05-09T19:50:35Z")
Suppose that taxes are extortion. So what? Unless you find a pool of something under America that is worth more than Saudi oil, you’re probably gonna need to tax in order to form a functioning society. So, given that Americans have gotten together and voted for the system we have, why belly-ache about the injustice of it all? Do you curse the sky when night falls? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/330 "2013-05-09T19:56:44Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I have mentioned the right to self defense. We are talking in circles now. I never agreed to any right to self-defense. Your voluntary society requires that everyone accept that idea, by force. It is not a voluntary society, _more_ voluntary, perhaps, but it rests on the same underpinnings of the tyranny of prevailing opinion. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You mention that morality is low when “the de facto government is the strongest clan or warlord”, yet you don’t realize that this is the case with a democratic government as well. The only difference is they obtain power by manipulating public perception instead of coming through with brute force. The oligopoly that controls government at any given time is indeed the strongest clan, with the strongest army. I realize it; this is the least-bad option, limited government selected democratically. I’ll take politics over brute force anyday, frankly. Better to suffer the manipulation of my perceptions than the local warlord’s son raping my wife, with no recourse available to me or her. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/331 "2013-05-09T19:57:03Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > We are not talking about who thinks he is getting his money’s worth, and who is not. If it costs $1000 to build a road, and there are three taxpayers, if any of the three pay less than $333.33 1/3, then the others have to pay more, no matter how much they value being able to use the road. In order to allocate cost by how much they use the road, you would charge a usage fee. That’s different from a progressive tax system. > > Regards, > Shodan But suppose that person B doesn’t have $333.33. Do you not build the road? Do A and C pay $500 each and prevent B from using it? According to your definition my road payment system might not be “fair” but its better for everyone involved than any of the alternatives. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/332 "2013-05-09T19:57:51Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I > > All taxes are extortion, but local taxes are less objectionable, yes. I’d still be against those, though. Why are they less objectionable? Why is a vote of 1,000 to 999 to impose taxes in any way less objectionable than a vote of 100,000,000 to 99,000,000? > [@](#): > > You are making the classic authoritarian strawman. Not once have I even hinted at some superiority complex. These rich people would be easily outnumbered and outfunded by a protection service patronized by less well off and more numerous folks. You’re the one assuming you can afford to hire the guard. And take a look at the amount of wealth owned by the richest in our reasonably egalitarian society. Where is the money for guards going to come from for the “lucky ducks” who pay no income tax now? Plus you are assuming that the majority is going to effectively organize, and fast enough so that the rich minority can’t stop them. If you were organizing common guards, would you protect those who couldn’t pay their share? Now, if by some chance the majority did organize and outspend the rich, they’d probably feel safer if the guards for the rich reported to them. (That way they wouldn’t have to pay for guards protecting them from the rich.) Given that, they could make the rich pay for their share of protection. Voila, you have taxes again! Even for the middle class - someone not paying for guards would likely be protected since the guards would have an incentive to catch thieves no matter who they stole from, since they could steal from a member of the collective next. So you’d have to enforce security payments from all. More taxes! An alternative would be gated communities with protection when you leave. Is that better? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/333 "2013-05-09T20:02:01Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > BS. A society of warrior only would quickly destroy any productive peoples and die because they had nothing left to live off of. Just like the Spartans killed off all the helots and then starved to death. [No, wait, that didn’t happen.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helots) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/334 "2013-05-09T20:05:06Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Listen. You’re comparing a stateless society from 1000 years ago to a state controlled society from today. How about to compare a stateless society from 1000 years ago to a state controlled society from 1000 years ago. > … > I’m not too familiar with it actually, as I said, i’ve just seen it cited often. I intend to look into the matter further. I strongly, strongly recommend the book [The Better Angels of Our Nature](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Nature), by Stephen Pinker. It comprises a massive history of human violence and spends literally hundreds of pages tracking the declines in violence correlating with various changes in human society. I’ve had vestiges on anarchist thought for the past two decades, based on the idea that, however bad individuals might be, they could never be as competent at killing as governments could be. This book conclusively proved this idea wrong. > [@](#): > > Gonna have to cut you off right there. BS. Uh, what? Money isn’t a government invention? Are you kidding me? Who do you think invented money? > [@](#): > > You bemoan the lack of modern examples of a stateless society, yet you’re so certain you will be killed instantly in one. Interesting. I don’t think you’re clear on how I’m using the word “modern.” It’s shown up in at least two different uses in this thread: 1. Modern as referencing a certain level of technology. I’ve bemoaned the lack of examples of a stateless society that has achieved and maintained such modern technological miracles as a highway system. 2. Modern as referencing the current time. Stateless societies that exist today are among the most dangerous places in the world to live, with the highest murder rates. Within a state-run society, the most dangerous places are those with the least state presence, e.g., inner-city neighborhoods with poor infrastructure, failing schools, and ineffective police. Those are the ones I’d fear for my life in. > [@](#): > > Nope. There was property long before government. The monkey’s banana from an earlier poster’s example comes to mind. In fact, since production must proceed predation, there would be no government if there were no property. I’m not sure what you mean by property rights, then. A property right only exists if other people look at something and say, “Yep, that’s yours, I shouldn’t take it unless you give it to me.” Just saying “Mine!” doesn’t equate to property rights. Are you seriously suggesting that monkeys see another monkey holding a banana and think, “Gosh, I may be hungry, but by all rights that banana belongs to her, so I shouldn’t eat it”? If so, which species? > [@](#): > > You’re all switched up. The premodern state was terrible until these ideas started gaining prominence. Again: check the book I recommended. The pre-modern state was terrible, no doubt–but the death rate under early tyrannies STILL tended to be less than the death rate amongst stateless hunter-gatherer groups. In any case, this has nothing to do with my point about the Enlightenment and its contribution to the rise of the modern nation state. I’m not switched up at all. > [@](#): > > BS. A society of warrior only would quickly destroy any productive peoples and die because they had nothing left to live off of. How much history have you read? I mean, seriously, this seems to be profoundly ignorant of little things like the Golden Horde. > [@](#): > > Open your mind. There is disagreement among anthropologists about how long humans have been around, but some people trace us back to an ancestor 5 million years ago. Humans have probably had speech for about 100,000 years, and we’ve only had the written language for about 5,000 years. In all this time, whether in written or spoken language, this is the weakest rebuttal a human has ever made to a request for a cite. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/335 "2013-05-09T22:26:49Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Don’t pay taxes, you go to jail. > > Don’t pay simony, you go to Hell. > > I’ll take that chance. I don’t know why I bother to engage you, but this sort of insipid non sequitur is why your posting persona comes across as almost inane and uneducable. The context was medieval Ireland, not Farnaby. Can you Google and come back and tell us whether many of those people were Christian believers? ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/336 "2013-05-09T22:43:55Z")
It’s always been my view that Democracy provides a foundation for society to work from. We each pay into it and get a vote with how the money is spent. We may not always be happy with the outcome but it’s better than the alternative. The issue with Democracy is it leaves itself open to all kinds of criticism. Everyone is dissatisfied with it in one way or another, and combined with the fact that many are very ignorant of its function, ends with it being taken for granted. So it’s easy for Mr. Passive-aggressive Libertarian to come in and say, “we’ll that wouldn’t happen under my system” no matter what the issue is. And people fall for it. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/337 "2013-05-09T23:14:42Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > P.J. O’Rourke wrote one, in which refusing to pay taxes lands you in jail, and attempting to flee from your unjust imprisonment gets you (legally) shot dead by a guard. This is not correct, at least in the United States. You won’t get prison time for not paying your taxes, no matter how much you owe. You only get prison time for filing a false tax return. So if you owe the IRS a thousand dollars they’ll try to seize your assets and grab your paycheck and so on, but you won’t go to jail unless you committed fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/338 "2013-05-09T23:29:42Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Suppose there are three individuals on an island, A,B, and C. Is it ok for A and B to “vote” to take C’s food? Two poor kids with knives run up on an affluent businessman in an alleyway. They “vote” to steal his wallet. Will of the people? What makes this exact transaction different when it is scaled up? Suppose there are three individuals on an island. They agree that if any of them are in danger of drowning, the others will help him. The next day A is swimming around looking for food and starts drowning. B pulls him out and C performs CPR and saves him. The next day B is swimming around looking for food and starts drowning. A pulls him out and C performs CPR and saves him. C never goes into the water to look for food, so he never needs saving. C sulks about the fact that he is being treated unfairly because he never almost drowned. ETA: Holy cow, 7 pages and I’ve only read the first one. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/339 "2013-05-09T23:46:55Z")
Yes, taxation is a form of extortion. Or, more precisely, of rent, because sovereignty over the land has not been surrendered to the fee-holders who are styled “land-owners.” So what? Who says extortion is necessarily bad? Or coercion? All effective law is coercive. ---
**Author:** ![Ograbme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Ograbme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ograbme)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/340 "2013-05-10T02:07:08Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > THat’s a fallacy though. When the US only asked 50 cents per citizen we weren’t a war torn dystopia. When the US only took 5% of GDP before the New Deal we were far from a dystopia… Between Reconstruction and the new deal, the US was undergoing a MASSIVE campaign of genocide and ethnic cleansing, millions of people were crushed and murdered because of their skin color, company-owned soldiers were driving around in armored trains with honest-toGod machine guns, and most people weren’t even allowed to vote. “Far from a dystopia”, he says. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/341 "2013-05-10T02:29:39Z")
Damn I never thought of it that before. We had economic growth because we were literally just killing people and taking their stuff on a massive scale. Sheeyit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704.md?page=18)