# Taxation is no different than extortion. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704 "2013-05-07T15:08:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Ograbme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Ograbme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ograbme)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/342 "2013-05-10T02:47:31Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Damn I never thought of it that before. We had economic growth because we were literally just killing people and taking their stuff on a massive scale. > > Sheeyit. The ‘good old days’ of nostalgic libertarians and economic conservatives were awfully similar to the atrocities of the Communist regimes that are allegedly their mortal enemies. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/343 "2013-05-10T03:14:17Z")
OP’s POV PKZipped: Nietzsche 3.0 ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/344 "2013-05-10T03:31:13Z")
> [@Ograbme](#): > > Between Reconstruction and the new deal, the US was undergoing a MASSIVE campaign of genocide and ethnic cleansing, millions of people were crushed and murdered because of their skin color, company-owned soldiers were driving around in armored trains with honest-toGod machine guns, and most people weren’t even allowed to vote. “Far from a dystopia”, he says. :dubious: More revenue at that point would have meant more genocide and more discrimination. So you should be thankful the government wasn’t empowered to do more than it did. The US was quite fine for the 19th century. Europe was taxing its citizens a lot more: mainly to pay for constant warfare. that is when the people weren’t rebelling and tax collection didn’t happen at all. But if you insist, how about the spending levels pre-Great Society? Was the US a dystopia in the 50s? Sure, there were many things very wrong with the country then, but in terms of fiscal policy and the economy we were doing pretty darn well spending less than we do now and a much higher proportion of that spending being on the military. Now I don’t want to go back to the 50s, but it shouldn’t be too controversial to take fiscal policy back to the Clinton years, should it? 18% of GDP seemed to be a pretty nice target. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/345 "2013-05-10T10:17:59Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Now I don’t want to go back to the 50s, but it shouldn’t be too controversial to take fiscal policy back to the Clinton years, should it? 18% of GDP seemed to be a pretty nice target. This is too glib. What exactly has changed in the last two decades that’s led to higher spending levels? First three things I think of is aging populace and Iraq and Afghanistan. Are there other major drivers of increased spending? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/346 "2013-05-10T10:34:26Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > But if you insist, how about the spending levels pre-Great Society? Was the US a dystopia in the 50s? For anyone who wasn’t a right wing straight male WASP it was pretty close. And paychecks were relatively a lot higher back then as well. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/347 "2013-05-10T11:40:08Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is too glib. What exactly has changed in the last two decades that’s led to higher spending levels? First three things I think of is aging populace and Iraq and Afghanistan. Are there other major drivers of increased spending? –Oh, and of course we had a booming economy then and weren’t recovering from the worst recession since the Great Depression\*. During recession recovery it makes sense to up spending, and during recession recovery a fixed amount of taxes is a greater percent of GDP. In any case, the Clinton years did a lot of things right, but they were far from perfect, and neither I nor anyone I know holds them up as the ideal to which tax policy should aspire. - Here’s where a dumbass would mock me for blaming Bush, not reading what I said and not being literate in the economic rhythms of recoveries; I’m grateful we have no dumbasses in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/348 "2013-05-10T12:11:32Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Evaluating exactly how much benefit someone is getting out of a road (hospital school etc) is an impossible task. Actually putting a cost on it is relatively simple. You charge a toll (for a private road). People will communicate how much they value the use of the road by paying or not paying a given level of toll. This includes people who will pay increased costs for their food because the driver had to pay the toll. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/349 "2013-05-10T13:45:18Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Now I don’t want to go back to the 50s, but it shouldn’t be too controversial to take fiscal policy back to the Clinton years, should it? Screw that! Let’s got back to the 50’s! I want the marginal tax rates we had under Ike! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/350 "2013-05-10T13:47:40Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > According to your definition my road payment system might not be “fair” but its better for everyone involved than any of the alternatives. Why are you putting the word “fair” into quotes as if I had used it, or defined it in some way? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/351 "2013-05-10T18:57:23Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Screw that! Let’s got back to the 50’s! I want the marginal tax rates we had under Ike! Do you want all the writeoffs and loopholes that we had under Ike as well? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/352 "2013-05-10T20:38:35Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Why are they less objectionable? Why is a vote of 1,000 to 999 to impose taxes in any way less objectionable than a vote of 100,000,000 to 99,000,000? In degree, not kind > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Uh, what? Money isn’t a government invention? Are you kidding me? Who do you think invented money? Which government invented it? Menger demonstrated how money would arise in a free society years ago. > [@](#): > > Within a state-run society, the most dangerous places are those with the least state presence, e.g., inner-city neighborhoods with poor infrastructure, failing schools, and ineffective police. Those are the ones I’d fear for my life in. Inner cities have less state presence than rural areas? I’m not sure what you mean by property rights, then. A property right only exists if other people look at something and say, “Yep, that’s yours, I shouldn’t take it unless you give it to me.” Just saying “Mine!” doesn’t equate to property rights. Exactly. Now why is government the only thing that can recognize these rights? They have no unique advantage over a private court. Private law would be able to interpret what society says is a legitimate claim to property and sette disputes. > [@](#): > > Again: check the book I recommended. The pre-modern state was terrible, no doubt–but the death rate under early tyrannies STILL tended to be less than the death rate amongst stateless hunter-gatherer groups. I don’t dispute this possibility. If the book made the case for this claim it would indeed be an interesting read. I just think that a return to anarchy would not cause a society to degenerate morally. > [@](#): > > In any case, this has nothing to do with my point about the Enlightenment and its contribution to the rise of the modern nation state. I’m not switched up at all. Ok then I must have misinterpreted this bit: > [@](#): > > its sanctity [human life], and the dignity of the individual, are fairly recent concepts that have gone hand in hand with the rise of the modern state. It seems we may be in agreement that the modern state was much the result of the enlightenment. I would consider advocating a stateless society a contination of the enlightenment’s emphasis on the individual. > [@septimus](#): > > I don’t know why I bother to engage you, but this sort of insipid non sequitur is why your posting persona comes across as almost inane and uneducable. The context was medieval Ireland, not Farnaby. Can you Google and come back and tell us whether many of those people were Christian believers? I am not advocating a return to medieval Ireland. > [@Rucksinator](#): > > Suppose there are three individuals on an island. They agree that if any of them are in danger of drowning, the others will help him. The next day A is swimming around looking for food and starts drowning. B pulls him out and C performs CPR and saves him. The next day B is swimming around looking for food and starts drowning. A pulls him out and C performs CPR and saves him. C never goes into the water to look for food, so he never needs saving. THank you for illustrating how people might act in eachother’s interest without government or God lording over them. > [@Frylock](#): > > Damn I never thought of it that before. We had economic growth because we were literally just killing people and taking their stuff on a massive scale. > Sheeyit. Cite? > [@Ograbme](#): > > Between Reconstruction and the new deal, the US was undergoing a MASSIVE campaign of genocide and ethnic cleansing, Yes the government was committing genocide because business interests gained control of the state apparatus and wielded “legitimate” power over the Native Americans. > [@](#): > > millions of people were crushed and murdered because of their skin color, Another failure of government. > [@](#): > > company-owned soldiers were driving around in armored trains with honest-toGod machine guns, Because government failed to provide protection. > [@](#): > > and most people weren’t even allowed to vote. Government failed yet again. > [@](#): > > “Far from a dystopia”, he says. :dubious: Indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/353 "2013-05-10T22:02:26Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > THank you for illustrating how people might act in eachother’s interest without government or God lording over them. My hypothetical agreement WAS the formation of government. Civilization (government) is people getting together to make agreements (rules) such as “No killing”, “No stealing”, or “everybody puts into the pot to pay for a school”, etc. Only in such a small population could the rules be so simple. (For example, those 3 guys aren’t going to build a school). As civilization scales up you get more benefit from social programs because of economies of scale. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/354 "2013-05-10T23:28:45Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Actually putting a cost on it is relatively simple. You charge a toll (for a private road). People will communicate how much they value the use of the road by paying or not paying a given level of toll. This includes people who will pay increased costs for their food because the driver had to pay the toll. > > Regards, > Shodan Maybe. I’m not a transportation expert and I don’t have any ideological opposition to funding roads by tolls, but I think you are oversimplifying things a bit here. For instance, you can say you derive a benefit from a paved road simply because societies with paved, well maintained roads are better, more prosperous places to live than those that do without. Also, I think–though again I am no expert–that tolls would not suffice to completely fund a highway, at least not without making it prohibitively expensive for most people. Finally, while I can see funding an interstate through tolls, I don’t think it would work for urban or suburban traffic. Do I have to pay a toll when I turn left from fourteenth on to U street, and the again when I turn from U onto New Hampshire ave? I can’t see how that would work. For one thing it would make slow congested traffic completely grind to a halt. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/355 "2013-05-11T00:04:16Z")
This is not a debate. It is witnessing. That is all. ---
**Author:** ![scratch\_llll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@scratch\_llll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch_llll)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/356 "2013-05-11T02:53:37Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > No, you don’t have the right. > > If it’s stupid to vote against one’s self interests, then it was stupid for white men to vote to grant the franchise to non-white men, and later women. It’s stupid for the non-poor to vote for welfare. It’s stupid for the non-rich to not vote to confiscate property. > > Government isn’t just an economic calculus of self-interests, it has a moral dimension as well. If you think it’s morally wrong to take more than a third or a half or whatever figure of someone else’s income, even if you would benefit from it, that’s not stupidity, it’s a moral choice. I’d benefit from stealing, but I don’t. Does that make me stupid? > > People in the south, people everywhere, (the OP excepted) know that we need taxes. That doesn’t mean they must agree with your opinion of what the tax burden should be, on whom it should fall, or what the revenue should be used for. Indeed? Even when in the circumstance I mentioned? You know, the one you ignored to make your point. Contrary to what some may have thought at the time it did not hurt white men to empower blacks and women. It does however hurt many to lower the deficit by cutting programs which help the poor and middle class just to keep the tax rate from going back to the rate it was actually working before the Bush tax cuts. Government does indeed have a moral dimension. If you think it is more right or “moral” to balance the budget on the backs of those who can least afford it and will be most damaged by less then you are either stupid or heartless. Sorry Mr. Potter, I’m not buying this different version of your thrifty working class verses a lazy and discontented rabble speech. I still side with George Bailey. The south reminds me of the horse in George Orwells “Animal Farm”. Every time the house pigs cut the food ration so they could live it up more the horse urged working harder. If only they worked harder and got by on less things would work out. The pigs only had their best interests at heart surely. Do you suppose that was a moral or a stupid look on the horses face as he was driven away to the glue factory? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/357 "2013-05-11T03:33:58Z")
> [@scratch\_llll](#): > > Indeed? Even when in the circumstance I mentioned? You know, the one you ignored to make your point. What, the circumstance of living in the South? No, you don’t get to condemn 114 million people as being stupid because you’ve lived amongst a few of them. If anecdotes are all-powerful to you, I happen to have lived in the South my whole life as well, so my anecdotal experience equals yours. > [@scratch llll](#): > > Contrary to what some may have thought at the time it did not hurt white men to empower blacks and women. Of course it did. It made their votes less valuable by being diluted, and meant that politicians were accountable to people other than white men, which meant the government had less incentive to only protect the interests of white men. It was done because it was the right thing to do, not because it was in the best interests of the men who voted for the amendments and the men who voted for the representatives that did so. There is nothing moral about narrowly pursuing one’s self interest. It’s not necessarily _immoral_, but it’s not moral. > [@scratch llll](#): > > It does however hurt many to lower the deficit by cutting programs which help the poor and middle class just to keep the tax rate from going back to the rate it was actually working before the Bush tax cuts. > > Government does indeed have a moral dimension. If you think it is more right or “moral” to balance the budget on the backs of those who can least afford it and will be most damaged by less then you are either stupid or heartless. Sorry Mr. Potter, I’m not buying this different version of your thrifty working class verses a lazy and discontented rabble speech. I still side with George Bailey. So, you allow that the poor or middle class of the South are _either_ stupid or heartless (odd, since it’s apparently heartless to themselves). That’s progress, of a sort, and I hadn’t even pointed out that Obama, whose economic policies I assume you believe to be in the poor and middle class’s best interests if the Republicans’ are not, got no less than 38% of the vote in any Southern state, and won Florida. Are those people stupid, too? Obama only got 25% of the vote in Utah, are they stupider still? > [@scratch llll](#): > > The south reminds me of the horse in George Orwells “Animal Farm”. Every time the house pigs cut the food ration so they could live it up more the horse urged working harder. If only they worked harder and got by on less things would work out. The pigs only had their best interests at heart surely. Do you suppose that was a moral or a stupid look on the horses face as he was driven away to the glue factory? I’d say the horse saw things differently, a possibility you’ve seemingly never considered. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/358 "2013-05-11T04:10:07Z")
> [@Rucksinator](#): > > My hypothetical agreement WAS the formation of government. Civilization (government) is people getting together to make agreements (rules) such as “No killing”, “No stealing”, or “everybody puts into the pot to pay for a school”, etc. > > Only in such a small population could the rules be so simple. (For example, those 3 guys aren’t going to build a school). As civilization scales up you get more benefit from social programs because of economies of scale. That may be what you intended, but what you actually succeeded in doing was showing how people might help each other without the threat of men with guns forcing them to. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/359 "2013-05-11T04:26:47Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > This is not a debate. > > It is witnessing. > > That is all. Winner of Most Ironic. What you fail to see is it is that nearly every poster has warbled hosannas at the alter of their god, government. I instead place my faith in all men. Government for most of history derived its power from fooling the populace into believing it was the earthly incarnation of god. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/360 "2013-05-11T04:34:35Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Winner of Most Ironic. What you fail to see is it is that nearly every poster has warbled hosannas at the alter of their god, government. I instead place my faith in all men. Government for most of history derived its power from fooling the populace into believing it was the earthly incarnation of god. LOL. And the OP is therefore the only one in this thread who is not deluded? It’s witnessing. Game. Set. Match. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/361 "2013-05-11T04:37:07Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Winner of Most Ironic. What you fail to see is it is that nearly every poster has warbled hosannas at the alter of their god, government. I instead place my faith in all men. If you have such faith in men, why do you have such contempt for the institution (government) that they have created and agreed to live under? > [@](#): > > Government for most of history derived its power from fooling the populace into believing it was the earthly incarnation of god. If that’s an answer, then you must think that men are easily fooled. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704.md?page=19)